team for 2009

[The Flying Belgian]

Voss indicated at the AGM that Rich is one of the most senior ready draftees he's seen. I expect they are keen to start developing him early, within reason.

And Headland was ready to go from day one after playing seniors in the WAFL (ironically for Subiaco), yet he only managed 3 games in his first year.

Bah, Humbug!

 

[Cousin Jed]

Hopefully Chez and Coz have put some of it away in their memory banks.

I've never met him, but from what I gather around here I don't think we will be relying on that. Particularly given the venue

 

[The Flying Belgian]

I've never met him, but from what I gather around here I don't think we will be relying on that. Particularly given the venue

Think of him like Bender from Futurama - he actually functions better with alcohol!

 

[Tassie4ever]

You can't change a whole side in one offseason, we need to pick players from our list

All those players which you have bolded are better players than Selwood and Sherman. By a long way IMO.

If you think Roe, Notting etc had better years than Sherman you're kidding yourself. It's not just me- I don't recall Voss using the same expletives regarding Sherman that he used about eg Roe.

No sensible person is recommending wholesale changes from game one- by the same token, some of the stuff that some of the above delivered in 2008 is just not acceptable, and if some of the younger, fearless [ie haven't yet received the big wakeup call], less selfish new blokes can inject an attitude transplant then so be it.

Many of our regular squad were getting games only because there was insufficient pressure from below, and because of the usual [in the case of the Lions]heavy incidence of injuries.

One thing's for sure- half a season will never get us anywhere. Leaving it to Black, Brown, Bradshaw, Power and a few more of the usual suspects to win games off their own backs got us to 10th two years in a row. We have the talent, no question, but we have lacked accountability when the game is there to be won.

Last point- I agree that Proud has great potential, but that's all. Just now he hasn't proven anything other than latent ability. Apart from one or two games toward the end of the season when it really wasn't all that difficult to stand out in our team, Proud has not delivered anything like Sherman did before he was shanghied into performing a totally unsuitable role, leading to loss of form, confidence, yada yada. Just how you can rate him over Sherman is a bit beyond me. Let's put it this way, who do you think would bring greater interest in the trading market?

 

[POBT]

Just how you can rate him over Sherman is a bit beyond me. Let's put it this way, who do you think would bring greater interest in the trading market?

I don't think you'd like the majority's view on this Tassie. I suspect that, across the board, clubs and opposition supporters would feel that Proud has more trade value than Sherman. "Latent ability" is a good way to describe Proud but I suspect that most clubs would back themselves to harness that ability. Given his respective youth, I reckon his value is increased by "upside".

On the other hand, Sherman has had 2 years of under-performance. I will grant him the excuses of injury and being thrust into non-preferred roles but I'm not convinced that other clubs would. IMO, Sherman has now lost all Brownie points from his debut year. His trade value has dropped significantly to the point of being almost negligible.

"Trade value" is not necessarily a great measure of "worth" anyway. But, rght now, if you ask me who is likely to become the better player, I would answer Proud. IMO, the only 2 things that Proud needs to work on is endurance and game smarts. Sherman's list of deficiencies, in my view, is longer.

 

[Grimreepah]

If you think Roe, Notting etc had better years than Sherman you're kidding yourself.

Tassie, I think you're being a bit hard on Shane M. This is about predicting future performance, which requires a lot of guess work and may be based on more than last year's form. Notting and Roe may have had bad years in 08, but it is not unreasonable to predict they will bounce back.

The problem with having a number of players under performing is that it is difficult to tell where players are really at. Especially now that we have a new coach.

 

[mpal6]

Drummond Merrett Patfull
Adcock Clark MacDonald
Brennan Dalziell Proud
Power Brown Rischitelli
McGrath Bradshaw Sherman

Ruck: Leuenberger, Black, Rich

Int: Charman, Collier, Clouston, Hawksley

EMG: Roe Henderson Hooper Stiller

 

[The_Roar]

Is there any footage on Rockliffe on this board? Like the sound of him but haven't seen him in action

 

[Grimreepah]

Is there any footage on Rockliffe on this board? Like the sound of him but haven't seen him in action

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13271073&postcount=11

 

[Tassie4ever]

I don't think you'd like the majority's view on this Tassie. I suspect that, across the board, clubs and opposition supporters would feel that Proud has more trade value than Sherman. "Latent ability" is a good way to describe Proud but I suspect that most clubs would back themselves to harness that ability. Given his respective youth, I reckon his value is increased by "upside".

On the other hand, Sherman has had 2 years of under-performance. I will grant him the excuses of injury and being thrust into non-preferred roles but I'm not convinced that other clubs would. IMO, Sherman has now lost all Brownie points from his debut year. His trade value has dropped significantly to the point of being almost negligible.

"Trade value" is not necessarily a great measure of "worth" anyway. But, rght now, if you ask me who is likely to become the better player, I would answer Proud. IMO, the only 2 things that Proud needs to work on is endurance and game smarts. Sherman's list of deficiencies, in my view, is longer.

I am happy to be in the minority where Sherman is concerned. However, when it comes to Proud it seems to me that he has been around a while as well. Endurance and game smarts- two reasonably significant characteristics I would have thought. Actually, pretty well fundamentals. No go, no show. One thing I entirely agree with the 98.9FM crew on about Proud.

Notwithstanding these comments, I am not bagging the bloke as I happen to think that he showed a bit in one or two games last year, but if Proud is as good as all his boosters in these pages say, perhaps he should by now be demanding a game on his performances.

You say Sherman's trade value has declined to the point of being negligible- evidence? And if it has, why? How can a player who had an outstanding debut year get to this point? Wasn't shopped around as a trade this year as far as I know. Obviously someone thinks he is worth persevering with. Perhaps the new coach has a different game plan in mind?

I obviously don't have the inside knowledge that others on these pages apparently do, but I would be fascinated in the decision-making process that decides "right, you'll go here and lump it". Is this a coach's decision, one off, or a committee decision?

In this same vein, one of Leigh's remarks that the individual had to forget about getting a kick and concentrate on fulfilling his role sticks in my mind. Like, what does that mean?? I honestly can't think of any coach who would be satisfied with any player not getting a kick.

 

[POBT]

However, when it comes to Proud it seems to me that he has been around a while as well.

Sherman was drafted in 2004 while Proud was drafted in 2006. There's also a gap in their age of about 20 months. It would be fairly reasonable to want Sherman to be more progressed than Proud. It would also be reasonable to think that Proud's 3rd season is likely to be better than his 1st or 2nd.

Endurance and game smarts- two reasonably significant characteristics I would have thought. Actually, pretty well fundamentals.

I agree entirely which is why I could understand the decision not to select him for regular senior footy in 2008. Endurance is reasonably easily fixed though. Game smarts can be learnt. The difference with Sherman (at least in my opinion)? Sherman also lacks game smarts, despite playing significantly more games and having more time at the club. Sherman makes poor decisions. Sherman's kicking is somewhat flawed. I'm not trying to write the bloke off and I still believe he has plenty of the qualities which are valuable for a senior footy player. There are some hurdles to overcome though - IMO, the stagnation of his development is not just because of injury and selection policy.

Notwithstanding these comments, I am not bagging the bloke as I happen to think that he showed a bit in one or two games last year, but if Proud is as good as all his boosters in these pages say, perhaps he should by now be demanding a game on his performances.

There is a difference between the "boosters", as you say, and someone like myself who sees that he is one or two small steps from establishing himself.

You say Sherman's trade value has declined to the point of being negligible- evidence? And if it has, why?

I didn't suggest it was fact and so don't have evidence. I said "I suspect". I am not going to conduct a straw poll but I feel fairly comfortable with making an assumption that Sherman is not considered that valuable on the open market. Why would he be? Would he be significantly more valuable than Anthony Corrie who attracted minimal interest in trade week? There is some upside but this season would have decreased his value.

How can a player who had an outstanding debut year get to this point?

"Outstanding" is not a word that I would use. He was very good for a first year player, certainly. In a tired, one paced side, he gave some spark when given his head. He made a lot of mistakes, more than you would expect from a senior player but he was not judged that harshly because he did what his role was - to give some dash and to take on the opposition. That he made mistakes was not a major focus. But, when you keep making similar mistakes in your 4th year, it does start to raise concerns about unremedied problems.

Wasn't shopped around as a trade this year as far as I know. Obviously someone thinks he is worth persevering with. Perhaps the new coach has a different game plan in mind?

I prefer to think that Voss rates every single player on the list to some degree. I don't think that people who are questioning whether Sherman is in our best 22 think that he is a lost cause. He remains quite unique in our side for his pace, size and reasonable endurance. But there are flaws which are hindering his development, IMO.

I obviously don't have the inside knowledge that others on these pages apparently do, but I would be fascinated in the decision-making process that decides "right, you'll go here and lump it". Is this a coach's decision, one off, or a committee decision?

I think it is a coaching call. I would imagine that the key decisions about week to week selections remained Lethal's, with input from the assistants. That is fair enough - he is the one who wears the accountability.

In this same vein, one of Leigh's remarks that the individual had to forget about getting a kick and concentrate on fulfilling his role sticks in my mind. Like, what does that mean?? I honestly can't think of any coach who would be satisfied with any player not getting a kick.

I find that last comment a little strange. Coaches have been known to give maximum votes to players who shut down their dangerous opponent whilst barely touching the ball themselves. The idea of "sacrifice your game for the benefit of the team" is pretty common. When you are asked to do it, you do your best in that role....which I think Sherman mostly did.

The question is whether Sherman was better utilised as a free wheeling flanker than as a defensive midfielder. I am still of an open mind - he did well enough in that role on occasion to suggest to me that it should not be totally ruled out and, as I've pointed out in the other thread, we don't have an automatic selection who is a stopper. It wouldn't be my preferred option for Shermo though.

 

[Tassie4ever]

POBT: Re-Sherman and Proud etc

Points well made, and in fact I agree with many of your assessments. I don't agree however, that Proud is "one or two steps" away, and that endurance is necessarily easily fixed. If this was the case with him, it would have been fixed. I don't think there will be any latitude given if he turns up relaxed and comfortable to training this season. He will be given his chance this year, no doubt. I hope he grabs it with both hands, a la Dazzle.

Perhaps I shouldn't have used "outstanding" to describe Sherman's debut year [which Proud didn't have]- maybe "exciting", or "great potential". Better still, Tasmanian. Seriously, in no way do I see him as the finished article, but in full high confidence mode he is a line breaker, a rare commodity in our side with Drummond injured so often.

Maybe my response is a reaction to those who dump on Sherman [and Selwood] when we are travelling poorly. If he is asked to stop eg Harvey from getting a kick, then don't dump on him when he doesn't kick goals as well.

 

[POBT]

POBT: Re-Sherman and Proud etc

Points well made, and in fact I agree with many of your assessments. I don't agree however, that Proud is "one or two steps" away, and that endurance is necessarily easily fixed. If this was the case with him, it would have been fixed. I don't think there will be any latitude given if he turns up relaxed and comfortable to training this season. He will be given his chance this year, no doubt. I hope he grabs it with both hands, a la Dazzle.

Perhaps I shouldn't have used "outstanding" to describe Sherman's debut year [which Proud didn't have]- maybe "exciting", or "great potential". Better still, Tasmanian. Seriously, in no way do I see him as the finished article, but in full high confidence mode he is a line breaker, a rare commodity in our side with Drummond injured so often.

Maybe my response is a reaction to those who dump on Sherman [and Selwood] when we are travelling poorly. If he is asked to stop eg Harvey from getting a kick, then don't dump on him when he doesn't kick goals as well.

The problem with our squad is that we could have the same discussions about Stiller, Charman, Notting, Adcock, Roe, Selwood....and so on. We simply have too many "fringe" senior footballers. It can be looked upon as an opportunity - as I said in another thread, if each of those players has close to career best seasons, with an even contribution from our stars, we are top 8 certainties. But it is also a risk because if none of those fringe players improve next year, then we will again rely on a core of elite players to win us games.

Depending on how you look at it, selecting a best 22 is hard because so many players have the potential to be regular senior footballers, or it is hard because so few players demand senior selection. As a reasonably optimistic supporter, my hope is that we have genuinely strong competition for spots by the end of 2009. I'd love to see blokes who deserve senior selection playing in the reserves. That will be a real indicator that the side has progressed.

Edit: you added to your post after I started my reply!

 

[Tassie4ever]

The problem with our squad is that we could have the same discussions about Stiller, Charman, Notting, Adcock, Roe, Selwood....and so on. We simply have too many "fringe" senior footballers. It can be looked upon as an opportunity - as I said in another thread, if each of those players has close to career best seasons, with an even contribution from our stars, we are top 8 certainties. But it is also a risk because if none of those fringe players improve next year, then we will again rely on a core of elite players to win us games.

Depending on how you look at it, selecting a best 22 is hard because so many players have the potential to be regular senior footballers, or it is hard because so few players demand senior selection. As a reasonably optimistic supporter, my hope is that we have genuinely strong competition for spots by the end of 2009. I'd love to see blokes who deserve senior selection playing in the reserves. That will be a real indicator that the side has progressed.

Edit: you added to your post after I started my reply!

We are on the same wavelength. We'll get no better than 10th if we rely on the same core few. The battlers have to take that next step to being first-picked regulars.

And you are spot on about the lack of competition- I honestly believe there were quite a few who were getting regular games in 2008 when they really didn't deserve one, and this was shown by the selections in the last couple of games. Blokes were picked then on a trial basis, because those they replaced were quite clearly simply not earning their spots- ie the new blokes couldn't really do any worse.

Not a good recipe for success. I watched a bit of the Suncoast over the past couple of years, and there were few who through last year were demanding upgrades. Maybe this is because the at Suncoast skill level isn't what it is in the VFL where teams don't get away with dragooning a few blokes in to make up team numbers.

Having seen Vossy's hunger for success, and his desperation even when on one leg, I can't believe he'll accept some of the stuff that was dished up last year, both by the coaching and playing personnel. If that means bruised egos and tears at home, then tough.

If leaving it to the Blacks, Brown's, Bradshaw's, Powers etc is permitted again I'd be very surprised. You can criticise Rischa for his skills, but if all of those outside the core mentioned [Dazzle excepted] displayed the same desperation, we'd have finished well inside the 4.

 

[Hollow Knight]

It just seems to me the expectations on younger players is increasing all the time. As little as 5 years ago, the unspoken rule was you'd wait at least 3 years for midfielders and 5 for KPP players before you could make anything close to a definitive judgement, yet this year we had people writing Mitch Clark off in his third year, and Collier off in his first.

Occasionally you get the kids that come in and make an immediate impact like Rhys Palmer, but they are very much the exception. I think its possible to both be very excited about the potential of Albert Proud (especially after seeing some of the feats he pulls off in the ressies) while simultaneously realising he still has work to do. Even acuguy, who was (its fair to say) the biggest pumper of Proud's tyres this year acknowledged that Albie has his current limitations (primarily endurance).

 

[acuguy]

I think Proud will have endurance issues throughout his career due to his crash and bash flat out style. I can't wait to see him unleashed under Vossy next season! Buy the way i went out and purchased a new pump yesterday for Proud. Think Michael Long

Shit it has started already!

 

[POBT]

I think Proud will have endurance issues throughout his career due to his crash and bash flat out style. I can't wait to see him unleashed under Vossy next season! Buy the way i went out and purchased a new pump yesterday for Proud. Think Michael Long

Shit it has started already!

Yeah, he's not going to be a midfielder who relies on his endurance. He does need to improve his endurance so that he gets to more contests and so that he can win more "loose" ball. I don't expect Ben Cousins endurance - but something more than Byron Pickett would be good!

 

[Rawhead]

Drummond Merrett MacDonald
Roe Notting Sherman
Dalziell Adcock Proud
Jonstone Brown Power
Hooper Bradshaw McGrath

Ruck: Charman, Black, Brennan

Int: Leuenberger, Clark, Stiller, Rich

 

[Sherminator.]

Tl;dr.

 

[Mossy1978]

I can't wait to see the Brisbane outfit for 2009. The mix of experience and youth in the midfield will be such a benefit for you guys. Add a young ruckman who will pick up so much more knowledge and will develop him quicker, I think it will be great for Brisbane and will enrich the silver spoon service to Browny and Bradshaw.

Good luck Brisbanetown in 2009!

 

[dude 4]

A lot of responses on this thread are saying that he was injured throughout the year etc etc except for a few none of our guys are irreplaceable and should not have been playing with injuries so its not an excuse. There were too many guys not giving 110% and giving up too easy, i for one hope Vossy will sort them out. I would rather see him giving the young kids a go if they are giving there all. Players like Roe, Johnstone, Hooper, Proud, Notting, Sherman,Selwood and others put your body on the line and I believe Vossy will reward you otherwise try netball.

I am expecting Vossy to coach like he played and he will expect the same determination like he gave, from those 22 who he selects each week.

 

[Schache It Off]

I am expecting Vossy to coach like he played and he will expect the same determination like he gave, from those 22 who he selects each week.

If that's that case, the top 8 will be easy.

 

[Warwick]

I'm continually surprised by the people saying things like "Vossy won't put up with that crap next year.." or "we will be a lot tougher and more aggresive" etc.

Are you guys aware of who Leigh Matthews is?

 

[Rawhead]

He did mellow though, and was almost a pussy cat at the end. A good full, happy life was probably the cause.

The third quarter apocalypses certainly started getting few and far between.

 

[Tassie4ever]

I'm continually surprised by the people saying things like "Vossy won't put up with that crap next year.." or "we will be a lot tougher and more aggresive" etc.

Are you guys aware of who Leigh Matthews is?

Yep, he's the coach who said, post the Carlton debacle, that [I'm paraphrasing] we couldn't get our hands on the ball so there was really not much we could have done. Like, for example, putting Bradshaw at CHB. He's the coach who quite obviously didn't have a wind-down strategy for the more than a few occasions we were in front with a few minutes to go. He's the coach who was prepared to allow Luke Hodge to accumulate world-record possessions. etc

He's also the coach who achieved the three-peat, a feat unlikely to be repeated in my lifetime.

My point is that the game marches on, and any successful team, and its coach, adapts to the changes along the way. We mightn't like the interchange, but it's there and the more successful teams use it. Ditto the fast return when a point has been kicked. Stuff we haven't been doing.

Every coach has a use-by date. From his actions, Leigh is intelligent enough to realise this simple point.