Stopping the Tigers 2020

[VicBased]

Time please

Go away.

 

[MadMundy]

I doubt that Richmond will be stopped this year, they'll be headed for another premiership.

 

[RogerDean]

1. Their forward line:

Pretty much you're going to need 3 excellent one on one defenders to contain Lynch, Riewoldt and Martin and then a lot of discipline and organisation to control who flies in the air and who stays down. Plus good ball use to not give them second chances.

2. Their back line:

They are so good at pressuring up the field and then creating a loose man behind the ball. It was Rance and now it's Grimes. I think you need to tag Grimes with an opponent who can beat him for smarts and worry him with size or contested ability, all whilst staying disciplined to tag a defender and know they won't always be in play. Just putting your regular full forward or anyone but the very best goal kickers playing their natural game won't work.

3. Midfield

Step 1 is being fit and quick enough to run with them. They've got most of the competition beat before they turn up because even if they are level at half time they know the game opens up in the second half and they'll run all over sides.

Step 2 is maintaining shape around the contest so they don't find the space to run in to.

Step 3 is how to get the right ball movement at the right time. Take the short controlled possession kicks when you can to stop their midfield folding back. Take the long down the line - they don't have a McGovern at CHB - when you need to and have it set up. But also take the risks and run and carry and use the corridor if you get the chances.

Hi...that style of going long down the line hasn't worked...Collingwood tried it early in the season against the Tigers and were cut up, Geelong tried the short kicks around the boundary in the finals and got over-run. I know it looks like those tactics should work but they haven't so far. I think that Footscray might be able to crack them open...get the ball free from the congestion with quick hand passing, then run it down the ground?
The way I see it...the majority of Richmond losses come when an opposition gorilla takes control in their forward line...Naughton and Jenkins and Cox, have all caused the Tigers problems...even Harry Taylor. Its getting it to them often enough that's the trick!

 

[master bate]

Hi...that style of going long down the line hasn't worked...Collingwood tried it early in the season against the Tigers and were cut up, Geelong tried the short kicks around the boundary in the finals and got over-run. I know it looks like those tactics should work but they haven't so far. I think that Footscray might be able to crack them open...get the ball free from the congestion with quick hand passing, then run it down the ground?
The way I see it...the majority of Richmond losses come when an opposition gorilla takes control in their forward line...Naughton and Jenkins and Cox, have all caused the Tigers problems...even Harry Taylor. Its getting it to them often enough that's the trick!

The Dogs had 134 marks when they beat the Tigers last year, from 220 kicks. Their ability to find the gaps in the zone whilst keeping the ball moving allowed them to control the tempo and get it to Naughton one on one.

The Pies had a massive 174 marks beating Richmond early in the year.

The Eagles were the team I thought about going long down the line to their advantage given they can own the air.

But it's not about any one team or plan, the idea is to be able to work a wide range of solutions then use them based on the individual scenarios.

 

[Wallaby]

If you look at the records of 'Most marks in a game by a team' - all the top numbers were put up by teams that won. I don't think there is any doubt that if you can make the chip-kicking, maintain-possession style work for the whole game, a team will probably win. But also, defenses know this, and have worked on zones, floods, pressure, whatever to limit its effectiveness.
So to say that's a game plan that will beat Richmond - it's a gameplan that will beat anybody.

 

[Dr Tigris]

If you look at the records of 'Most marks in a game by a team' - all the top numbers were put up by teams that won. I don't think there is any doubt that if you can make the chip-kicking, maintain-possession style work for the whole game, a team will probably win. But also, defenses know this, and have worked on zones, floods, pressure, whatever to limit its effectiveness.
So to say that's a game plan that will beat Richmond - it's a gameplan that will beat anybody.

Seriously! Controlling the ball so that the other team doesn't get their hands on it can lead to you winning the game!!!!

I'm shocked.







Not really. It's being able to get that ball free and under your control that's the hard bit. As teams do the kick mark, kick mark strategy other teams (Richmond) work out how to stop it. It's the obvious way to beat the Tiges. But the big problem with kicking it to a free man is that if the defense is set up right they'll cause spillages and then will be wide open to attack. When teams started doing the kick it wide to a free man thing the tigers didn't set up right. We know that tactic now and will provide the right amount of teasing space = intercepts and spilled marks. Or we force long kicks to the free man = much greater chance of missing the target and so better opportunities for open space in the attack, from close to goal.

And teams will know this and be working on tinkering with the strategy. And so it goes.

 

[THE_GUN]

Can it defeat the tigs?, remains to be seen as the two tig losses (the pf and rd 2 2019) the tigers were in poor form. A firing tigs I'd like to see against this system to test it. We saw it in 2018 only for the pies to go down in rotation - game over.
.

Not wanting to be pedantic or nit pick but you mention tigers were in poor form in the PF but blame injuries and rotation for the pies loss, You might want to revisit that PF and maybe take into consideration the injuries Richmond had during the game combined with what occurred prior to the game with certain players being ill.

No doubt Pies played well and deserved the win but Richmond had dusty virtually on 1 leg with just about zero impact all game and Astbury could barely get off the mark after spending the night in hospital along with another 2 players (supposedly by some people in the know also effected with the now famous gastro)

 

[THE_GUN]

If i had to list the teams i dont want to meet in a GF in order it would be

1. Bulldogs
2.GWS
3.Eagles
4.Pies

The doggies personnel and game style matches up against Richmond the best imo

 

[Carringbush2010]

Not wanting to be pedantic or nit pick but you mention tigers were in poor form in the PF but blame injuries and rotation for the pies loss, You might want to revisit that PF and maybe take into consideration the injuries Richmond had during the game combined with what occurred prior to the game with certain players being ill.

No doubt Pies played well and deserved the win but Richmond had dusty virtually on 1 leg with just about zero impact all game and Astbury could barely get off the mark after spending the night in hospital along with another 2 players (supposedly by some people in the know also effected with the now famous gastro)

That's exactly my point, the two of the last three years have never met best v best.

Don't mean to nitpick either but going down in rotation is having less rotations on the bench - something you can't cover. Dusty on one leg and Astbury still p155ing out of his ass were still there as rotations - even though they shouldn't have been there. Was that the reason for their poor form?

Would have it been more accurate if I mentioned Dusty and Astbury rather than poor form? Was it both?

Was it poor form from the Pies against GWS coz JDG wasn't there? Or was it just poor form? If you ask me it was just poor form.

 

[AuntyBlindEye]

I've seen both of them play at wafl level and Kelly is a very good player who went to another level once he was placed in a fully professional environment. I hope rather than think that Pickett has as much upside. If he can average 20 clean touches each week, putting players into position with those slick hands he will be worth his weight in gold. I think Kelly is the man tho. He just looks like he will get better and better. My money is on him to win a Brownlow before Marlion ever does. Kelly is all power and grace, Pickett is silky class.

Love watching them both.

Kelly is younger isn't he? Around 23?

 

[AuntyBlindEye]

That's exactly my point, the two of the last three years have never met best v best.

Don't mean to nitpick either but going down in rotation is having less rotations on the bench - something you can't cover. Dusty on one leg and Astbury still p155ing out of his ass were still there as rotations - even though they shouldn't have been there. Was that the reason for their poor form?

Would have it been more accurate if I mentioned Dusty and Astbury rather than poor form? Was it both?

Was it poor form from the Pies against GWS coz JDG wasn't there? Or was it just poor form? If you ask me it was just poor form.

Not having JDG wouldn't have helped to be fair.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Not having JDG wouldn't have helped to be fair.

Not saying otherwise, however it may have hampered the team having an injured JDG there. It's fair speculation an injured Dusty and a crook as Astbury hampered the tigs in that PF.

Having the two teams without want of personnel and no in game injuries would be the true measure of how they stack up, until then predicting that the Pies could stop them is purely speculation.

 

[AuntyBlindEye]

Not saying otherwise, however it may have hampered the team having an injured JDG there. It's fair speculation an injured Dusty and a crook as Astbury hampered the tigs in that PF.

Having the two teams without want of personnel and no in game injuries would be the true measure of how they stack up, until then predicting that the Pies could stop them is purely speculation.

Fair point, I took the "Or was it just poor form? If you ask me it was just poor form" a bit literally.

 

[Carringbush2010]

If you look at the records of 'Most marks in a game by a team' - all the top numbers were put up by teams that won. I don't think there is any doubt that if you can make the chip-kicking, maintain-possession style work for the whole game, a team will probably win. But also, defenses know this, and have worked on zones, floods, pressure, whatever to limit its effectiveness.
So to say that's a game plan that will beat Richmond - it's a gameplan that will beat anybody.

What you're talking about is some seriously precise transition amid uber high pressure, wc could only do it for one quarter, let alone the whole game.

No offence but this is utopian stuff, not even the giants have the personnel to do this all game. Melbourne sometime in the early to mid 2000's if I am correct based their game on the theory of possession - 'have the ball and they don't we win', needless to say it didn't work.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Fair point, I took the "Or was it just poor form? If you ask me it was just poor form" a bit literally.

Well to be fair DeGoey or no DeGoey, the Pies were very poor for 3+ qtrs - so yeah poor form. Would have an injured DeGoey made it worse? Possibly.

 

[Wallaby]

What you're talking about is some seriously precise transition amid uber high pressure, wc could only do it for one quarter, let alone the whole game.

No offence but this is utopian stuff, not even the giants have the personnel to do this all game. Melbourne sometime in the early to mid 2000's if I am correct based their game on the theory of possession - 'have the ball and they don't we win', needless to say it didn't work.

I never said it was easy! Of course it's incredibly difficult to maintain it for a full game - the current best teams don't play that gamestyle. But Hawthorn played a version of it back in the mid-2010s - they would cut you (slowly) to pieces with their chip-chip-chip. Eventually teams worked out how to pressure that successfully and make it less effective. Anybody can chp-chip-chip - it's the final strike into the forward 50 that counts. Opponents don't mind you chipping around the half-back/wing - sometimes a game resembles basketball, with the point guards passing the ball around the perimeter hoping for something to open up inside that they can hit with a bullet pass. The defence meanwhile is playing a zone/flood (whatever you call it). And the more the defence can slow it down, and force more 'maintaining possession' chipping, rather than 'opening up defences chipping', the more chance of a mistake or interception.

There will always be evolution in tactics - both attack and defence. If you can get the chipping, precise transition to work, it's a very effective gamestyle. But at the moment, the defences seem to be generally on top of it.

Generally.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I never said it was easy! Of course it's incredibly difficult to maintain it for a full game - the current best teams don't play that gamestyle. But Hawthorn played a version of it back in the mid-2010s - they would cut you (slowly) to pieces with their chip-chip-chip. Eventually teams worked out how to pressure that successfully and make it less effective. Anybody can chp-chip-chip - it's the final strike into the forward 50 that counts. Opponents don't mind you chipping around the half-back/wing - sometimes a game resembles basketball, with the point guards passing the ball around the perimeter hoping for something to open up inside that they can hit with a bullet pass. The defence meanwhile is playing a zone/flood (whatever you call it). And the more the defence can slow it down, and force more 'maintaining possession' chipping, rather than 'opening up defences chipping', the more chance of a mistake or interception.

There will always be evolution in tactics - both attack and defence. If you can get the chipping, precise transition to work, it's a very effective gamestyle. But at the moment, the defences seem to be generally on top of it.

Generally.

Agreed, the problem with transition styles is that it is more personnel reliant than pressure teams like Richmond, I seriously doubt that that Hawthorn team would cut through the current tigs (or the pies for that matter) as easily.

Just about every team was trying to emulate the hawks at the time, not so the tigs now. Only a few are rated as pressure teams.

The current richmond style is more easily executed than from a skill point of view, yes it requires constant tank to pressure the contest (not just the opp with the ball) - it's a style that is based on pressure and fundamentals that doesn't require silky precision players - even though rich have a few. But let's not pretend they have a list like the giants or wc. In fact the current style is somewhat predictable but that doesn't even matter such is the suffocation they apply to the opposition.

Pretty transition football won't work against this team and would unlikely work against other good pressure teams either.

If there has ever been a time where 'work harder' than your opponent is an accurate description it is right now in the current landscape.

That's easier said than done if your one wood is ball movement like a current wc, or more appropriately if your one wood is NOT suffocating the opposition.

 

[roz1812]

We were all over them in the prelim final up until half time until our coach lost us the game. Plus we didn't even have Mitch Duncan or Hawkins. They are certainly beatable. I think one of these keys is slowing the game down, they love a fast paced and high intensity game and live off perceived pressure. They are very counter attacking team, so forward half turnovers are fatal when playing them, got to get the ball deep inside 50 and ideally take marks . I think keeping the ball off the ground is a must against them because they play that forward at all cost style and stream forward in waves so they love the ball on the ground and if you are marking it they cant use their pressure game. I think a game style similar to the hawks in their 3 peat years would be very effective against them. Also got to convert inside 50s and shots on goal, while this is relevant against any team, its more so for Richmond as they don't need many inside 50's to hurt teams.

 

[Tenny]

Agreed, the problem with transition styles is that it is more personnel reliant than pressure teams like Richmond, I seriously doubt that that Hawthorn team would cut through the current tigs (or the pies for that matter) as easily.

Just about every team was trying to emulate the hawks at the time, not so the tigs now. Only a few are rated as pressure teams.

The current richmond style is more easily executed than from a skill point of view, yes it requires constant tank to pressure the contest (not just the opp with the ball) - it's a style that is based on pressure and fundamentals that doesn't require silky precision players - even though rich have a few. But let's not pretend they have a list like the giants or wc. In fact the current style is somewhat predictable but that doesn't even matter such is the suffocation they apply to the opposition.

Pretty transition football won't work against this team and would unlikely work against other good pressure teams either.

If there has ever been a time where 'work harder' than your opponent is an accurate description it is right now in the current landscape.

That's easier said than done if your one wood is ball movement like a current wc, or more appropriately if your one wood is NOT suffocating the opposition.

Our list is better than West Coast’s lol. Better everywhere on the park besides rucks. Our depth is also better. GWS have the best list in the comp though.

 

[tiger_tough]

We were all over them in the prelim final up until half time until our coach lost us the game. Plus we didn't even have Mitch Duncan or Hawkins. They are certainly beatable. I think one of these keys is slowing the game down, they love a fast paced and high intensity game and live off perceived pressure. They are very counter attacking team, so forward half turnovers are fatal when playing them, got to get the ball deep inside 50 and ideally take marks . I think keeping the ball off the ground is a must against them because they play that forward at all cost style and stream forward in waves so they love the ball on the ground and if you are marking it they cant use their pressure game. I think a game style similar to the hawks in their 3 peat years would be very effective against them. Also got to convert inside 50s and shots on goal, while this is relevant against any team, its more so for Richmond as they don't need many inside 50's to hurt teams.

How did your coach lose you the game? We were always going to come. We always do. Did it against the Eagles in R22 and V the lions in the first final.

Conveniently left out Graham did his shoulder early in the 1st and ran around with 1 arm for the remainder and Broad went off in the 3rd with concussion. And there's that bloke Rance.

 

[THE_GUN]

We were all over them in the prelim final up until half time until our coach lost us the game. Plus we didn't even have Mitch Duncan or Hawkins. They are certainly beatable. I think one of these keys is slowing the game down, they love a fast paced and high intensity game and live off perceived pressure. They are very counter attacking team, so forward half turnovers are fatal when playing them, got to get the ball deep inside 50 and ideally take marks . I think keeping the ball off the ground is a must against them because they play that forward at all cost style and stream forward in waves so they love the ball on the ground and if you are marking it they cant use their pressure game. I think a game style similar to the hawks in their 3 peat years would be very effective against them. Also got to convert inside 50s and shots on goal, while this is relevant against any team, its more so for Richmond as they don't need many inside 50's to hurt teams.

Looks like you left at half time , Richmond were always going to go up another 2-3 gears
Geelong didnt have them

 

[Carringbush2010]

Our list is better than West Coast’s lol. Better everywhere on the park besides rucks. Our depth is also better. GWS have the best list in the comp though.

Well that 1st sentence is up for debate, my certain opinion is that wc starting 22 is far better than the Pies.

 

[THE_GUN]

Well that 1st sentence is up for debate, my certain opinion is that wc starting 22 is far better than the Pies.

You are correct that it is up for debate as we are all bias towards our own team but as a 50+ year Richmond supporter i can honestly say that it is the best & most even list we have had in my time of supporting the club (yes big call considering the teams from 1967-1980 ) But i dont believe we had the depth in the list we have currently with 30+ players that could be a walk up starter in round 1 without looking out of place.

What excites me the most though is the players most opposition supporters wouldnt know the names of like Coleman-Jones , Turner , Balta , Ralphsmith , Dow , Naish , Collier-Dawkins , Ross and few others.

The only part i see that will need to be improved in the next 12-24 months is KPD where i believe we are 1 maybe 2 players short with Grimes/Astbury getting near 30.

I did mention earlier in this thread that Richmond have turned over 25 players since 2016 and have won 2 flags in this time whilst turning over / improving the list.

 

[Carringbush2010]

You are correct that it is up for debate as we are all bias towards our own team but as a 50+ year Richmond supporter i can honestly say that it is the best & most even list we have had in my time of supporting the club (yes big call considering the teams from 1967-1980 ) But i dont believe we had the depth in the list we have currently with 30+ players that could be a walk up starter in round 1 without looking out of place.

What excites me the most though is the players most opposition supporters wouldnt know the names of like Coleman-Jones , Turner , Balta , Ralphsmith , Dow , Naish , Collier-Dawkins , Ross and few others.

The only part i see that will need to be improved in the next 12-24 months is KPD where i believe we are 1 maybe 2 players short with Grimes/Astbury getting near 30.

I did mention earlier in this thread that Richmond have turned over 25 players since 2016 and have won 2 flags in this time whilst turning over / improving the list.

Fair enough, but to move from your bias for a second would you agree (or think) that wc have a better list than the Pies? - park the tigers list for a second.

 

[WCE Wizard]

I think Richmond have a better list otherwise they wouldn't have won 2 flags in 3 years. However WC can still go all the way in 2020, with the list we have. Just need to get a full seasons worth out of Kennedy he finally has had an injury free pre-season and a full season out of Nic Nat. Need some luck as well