Stats questions

[the croucher]

Not really a statistical question as such, but of the statistical gurus around here, which of you are planning on keeping records on AFLW statistics? Would be nice to know what resources are out there.

I admit I hadn't built up any database or lists of records for women's Australian Football,
either just on the AFL comp, or all women's games wherever they have been played, but will probably begin one this year.

Will have a glance around the net and see if there are sites that might be worth nominating for a resource list we can all build on in the same way we have a similar list for the men's game.

 

[iluvparis]

Amongst many amazing stats coming out of the Supebowl, the Pats where the first team in any playoff game to come back from 19+ points down at 3/4 time (teams with a 19 or more point lead where 93-0 up to that point).

Given that I was wondering if anyone had easy access to the records of teams who lead by 7 goals or more at half time in a final (not just GFs) to get an idea of how this comeback compares to 1970.

 

[35Daicos]

Amongst many amazing stats coming out of the Supebowl, the Pats where the first team in any playoff game to come back from 19+ points down at 3/4 time (teams with a 19 or more point lead where 93-0 up to that point).

Given that I was wondering if anyone had easy access to the records of teams who lead by 7 goals or more at half time in a final (not just GFs) to get an idea of how this comeback compares to 1970.

You can see a list of games here (top 20) that have been won by teams that had a 1/2 time deficit of 39 points+. It includes two finals, the 1970 GF (Carlton from 44 points down at the main break) and Essendon's 1993 PF win over Adelaide (after trailing by 42 points).

http://afltables.com/afl/teams/allteams/gamer.html#17

There's been 10 Grand Finals where a team has led by 42 points+ at 1/2 time (one has lost), while in all Finals 43 times a team has led by 42 points+ at 1/2 time (two have lost).

 

[emuboy]

In 1993, a promising young key position player named Simon Hawking made his debut for Fitzroy. He went on to play 60 games for the Lions from his first appearance to the end of the 1996 season, when Fitzroy merged with the Brisbane Bears. Hawking was one of the eight Fitzroy players taken by the Brisbane Lions, but never played a senior game for Brisbane. He moved to Sydney the following year, but 1998 came and went without Hawking making his senior debut for the Swans. In 2000, Hawking was drafted by Collingwood but once more he did not make a senior appearance for the Magpies, and ended his career with 60 games at Fitzroy, and no games for any of the three other clubs at which he was listed.

Are there any other players like Simon Hawking, who spent time on three or more club's senior lists without playing a senior match? And who holds the record for being on the most number of club lists without ever playing a senior game at any of them?

 

[35Daicos]

In 1993, a promising young key position player named Simon Hawking made his debut for Fitzroy. He went on to play 60 games for the Lions from his first appearance to the end of the 1996 season, when Fitzroy merged with the Brisbane Bears. Hawking was one of the eight Fitzroy players taken by the Brisbane Lions, but never played a senior game for Brisbane. He moved to Sydney the following year, but 1998 came and went without Hawking making his senior debut for the Swans. In 2000, Hawking was drafted by Collingwood but once more he did not make a senior appearance for the Magpies, and ended his career with 60 games at Fitzroy, and no games for any of the three other clubs at which he was listed.

Are there any other players like Simon Hawking, who spent time on three or more club's senior lists without playing a senior match? And who holds the record for being on the most number of club lists without ever playing a senior game at any of them?

This article (from 2003) throws up a few names. Darren Bartsch (4 clubs) would almost certainly hold the record, then there's Ernie Hug jnr. and John McNamara (3 clubs):-

Bartsch said it was better that players now must nominate for the draft. He never asked to be drafted, although he was four times - more than any footballer who failed to play an AFL game.

Five players were drafted on three occasions without going on to play a senior game. Here are three of them:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/11/21/1069027334939.html
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/11/21/1069027334939.html

Jason Spinks is one of three players they mention who was drafted 3 times without playing a game, but he was drafted twice by West Coast.

Edit: Perhaps Brian McInnes (Footscray x2, Fitzroy x1) was one of those the article referred to, as he was drafted 3 times without playing a game. Damian Ryan (Footscray x2, Brisbane x1) and Alan Schwartz (Essendon x2, Adelaide x1) had the same record, but like Spinks neither were at 3 clubs (without playing a game).

Luke Trew was on the (senior) list at West Coast and Footscray, as well as Essendon's rookie list, for 0 games. Apart from Bartsch, Hug and McNamara I can't see any who were on the senior list of 3 or more clubs and failed to play a game with any of them, but it's possible that I've missed someone.

 

[worbod]

North Melbourne and Western Bulldogs have currently played each other 157 times for 77 wins apiece and 3 draws. Has any other two teams ever played more games against each other at any point in their history and still been even on wins?

 

[35Daicos]

North Melbourne and Western Bulldogs have currently played each other 157 times for 77 wins apiece and 3 draws. Has any other two teams ever played more games against each other at any point in their history and still been even on wins?

Fitzroy and Melbourne. 179 games for 88 wins apiece.

Edit: That's obviously how things finished up between those two clubs. I don't know for sure whether that (games played) figure would have been bettered at any stage of the competition's history with two clubs level on wins in head-to-head clashes.

 

[35Daicos]

North Melbourne and Western Bulldogs have currently played each other 157 times for 77 wins apiece and 3 draws. Has any other two teams ever played more games against each other at any point in their history and still been even on wins?

Carlton and Collingwood were on 89-4-89 (182 games) after the 1981 Grand Final. That was the last time they were on even terms.

http://afltables.com/afl/teams/carlton/allgames_tm.html#5

I don't know of an easier way of looking this up, I've simply picked on "likely candidates" who've played each other enough times (179+) and are reasonably close in wins currently.

Edit: I'm rather confident that Carlton and Collingwood (182 games) is the winner after quite a decent check of this, but again it was only a manual check.

Geelong and Richmond were level (84-3-84 -- 171 games) after their clash in 2001.

 

[Catsace]

Carlton and Collingwood were on 89-4-89 (182 games) after the 1981 Grand Final. That was the last time they were on even terms.

http://afltables.com/afl/teams/carlton/allgames_tm.html#5

I don't know of an easier way of looking this up, I've simply picked on "likely candidates" who've played each other enough times (179+) and are reasonably close in wins currently.

Edit: I'm rather confident that Carlton and Collingwood (182 games) is the winner after quite a decent check of this, but again it was only a manual check.

Geelong and Richmond were level (84-3-84 -- 171 games) after their clash in 2001.

On a different tack, although i can say that Geelong has left the Tigers in their dust since that 2001 game!..is that Carlton won their first 24 games against Richmond. Astoundingly, in 1921, the Tigers won just their 4th and 5th games against the Blues in that year's finals en route to taking the Premiership that season. Nice way to make amends that's for sure!

 

[Ron The Bear]

Carlton and Collingwood were on 89-4-89 (182 games) after the 1981 Grand Final. That was the last time they were on even terms.

http://afltables.com/afl/teams/carlton/allgames_tm.html#5

I don't know of an easier way of looking this up, I've simply picked on "likely candidates" who've played each other enough times (179+) and are reasonably close in wins currently.

Edit: I'm rather confident that Carlton and Collingwood (182 games) is the winner after quite a decent check of this, but again it was only a manual check.

Geelong and Richmond were level (84-3-84 -- 171 games) after their clash in 2001.

Carlton/Collingwood 182-89-89-4 (1981)
Melbourne/Fitzroy - 179-88-88-3 (1996)
Geelong/Richmond - 171-84-84-3 (2001)
North Melbourne/Western Bulldogs - 157-77-77-3 (2016)
North Melbourne/St.Kilda 154-76-76-2 (2016)
Hawthorn/Western Bulldogs 152-75-75-2 (2011)
Hawthorn/Melbourne - 148-74-74-0 (2008)
Essendon/Richmond - 143-70-70-3 (1985)
St.Kilda/Western Bulldogs - 138-68-68-2 (2005)
North Melbourne/Sydney - 134-67-67-0 (2000)
Geelong/Sydney - 130-65-65-0 (1966)

 

[35Daicos]

Carlton/Collingwood 182-89-89-4 (1981)
Melbourne/Fitzroy - 179-88-88-3 (1996)
Geelong/Richmond - 171-84-84-3 (2001)
North Melbourne/Western Bulldogs - 157-77-77-3 (2016)
North Melbourne/St.Kilda 154-76-76-2 (2016)
Hawthorn/Western Bulldogs 152-75-75-2 (2011)
Hawthorn/Melbourne - 148-74-74-0 (2008)
Essendon/Richmond - 143-70-70-3 (1985)
St.Kilda/Western Bulldogs - 138-68-68-2 (2005)
North Melbourne/Sydney - 134-67-67-0 (2000)
Geelong/Sydney - 130-65-65-0 (1966)

Thanks Ron.

 

[Ron The Bear]

The obverse - greatest differences in wins

121 Carlton v St.Kilda 193-156-35-2 (2001)
100 Collingwood v St.Kilda 216-157-57-2 (2015)
75 Essendon v St.Kilda 205-138-63-4 (2011)
67 Collingwood v Melbourne 230-146-79-5 (2015)
64 Collingwood v Western Bulldogs 149-106-42-1 (2013)
59 Collingwood v Sydney 218-138-79-1 (2012)
57 Carlton v Hawthorn 109-83-26-0 (1983)
57 Collingwood v Western Bulldogs 117-87-30-0 (1993)
57 Sydney v St.Kilda 167-111-54-2 (1988)
56 Carlton v Sydney 192-121-65-6 (1994)
56 Collingwood v Fitzroy 209-131-75-3 (1996)
56 Collingwood v Hawthorn 86-71-15-0 (1974)
55 Collingwood v North Melbourne 157-105-50-2 (2015)

 

[emuboy]

According to the 2017 AFL Record, there are 8 known AFL/VFL players to have lived 100 years or more, the oldest of these Carlton's Newton Chandler who was born in 1893 and died at the age of 103 in 1997. Another Carlton player Max Wilson, who played 9 games for the Blues in the 1940s, is still alive at the age of 102. Wilson was born in July 1914 when University were still playing in the VFL, and therefore is the only player to have been alive when all 21 current and former AFL/VFL clubs were in operation.

At the other end of the scale, does anyone know who the youngest AFL/VFL player to die was? I imagine a player who debuted as a teenager and was killed in action in either the First or Second World War, but possibly a young player could have died of illness or misadventure at some other time.

 

[adammania9]

According to the 2017 AFL Record, there are 8 known AFL/VFL players to have lived 100 years or more, the oldest of these Carlton's Newton Chandler who was born in 1893 and died at the age of 103 in 1997. Another Carlton player Max Wilson, who played 9 games for the Blues in the 1940s, is still alive at the age of 102. Wilson was born in July 1914 when University were still playing in the VFL, and therefore is the only player to have been alive when all 21 current and former AFL/VFL clubs were in operation.

At the other end of the scale, does anyone know who the youngest AFL/VFL player to die was? I imagine a player who debuted as a teenager and was killed in action in either the First or Second World War, but possibly a young player could have died of illness or misadventure at some other time.

Interesting facts I would never have thought of.

Ron James was 19 when he died in 1990 in a waterskiing accident whilst playing for Footscray. He is the youngest documented player to have died whilst being an active player on a list. But that doesn't answer the full question.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ballers_who_died_during_their_playing_careers

 

[35Daicos]

According to the 2017 AFL Record, there are 8 known AFL/VFL players to have lived 100 years or more, the oldest of these Carlton's Newton Chandler who was born in 1893 and died at the age of 103 in 1997. Another Carlton player Max Wilson, who played 9 games for the Blues in the 1940s, is still alive at the age of 102. Wilson was born in July 1914 when University were still playing in the VFL, and therefore is the only player to have been alive when all 21 current and former AFL/VFL clubs were in operation.

At the other end of the scale, does anyone know who the youngest AFL/VFL player to die was? I imagine a player who debuted as a teenager and was killed in action in either the First or Second World War, but possibly a young player could have died of illness or misadventure at some other time.

On a related note, the first (current) VFL footballer to die was South Melbourne's Denis 'Dinny' McKay in 1897 (but he was 29). Not the answer to the question, of course!

The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballlers said "He therefore had the dubious distinction of being the first VFL footballer to die, of any cause."

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Dinny_McKay

Denis "Dinny" McKay (23 November 1867 – 17 August 1897) was an Australian rules footballer who played with South Melbourne in the Victorian Football Association (VFA) and Victorian Football League (VFL).[1] He played briefly with Richmond, in 1892 and 1893, but otherwise was with South Melbourne until their final VFA season in 1896. His sudden death during the 1897 VFL season was considered a severe loss to football.[2]

 

[Ron The Bear]

At the other end of the scale, does anyone know who the youngest AFL/VFL player to die was? I imagine a player who debuted as a teenager and was killed in action in either the First or Second World War, but possibly a young player could have died of illness or misadventure at some other time.

Been doing bits and pieces on this as a side project. Long way to go, but the youngest I've found so far are Bill Landy (Ge), 19y24d and Ron James (WB), 19y57d. James is the only one of the top 15 (so far) not to die in a war year.

Other unusual ones so far are John McCarthy (Co,PA) 22y295d (fall), Terry Ogden (Me,Ca) 23y342d (pleurisy), Troy Broadbridge (Me) 24y82d (drowned), Percy Barton (Ri) 24y88d (motorcycle accident), Ned Baptiste (SM) 24y102d (?), Colin Braid (Es) 24y204d (mining fall), Max Orr (Me) 24y246d (car accident), Dave Barry (SM) 24y325d (hit by train).

 

[emuboy]

^^^

Thanks Ron the Bear, 35Daicos & adammania9.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Troy Broadbridge's death will forever be the saddest for me.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

A perverse question here.

Has any coach died (apart from Phil Walsh) while still coaching?

 

[35Daicos]

Been doing bits and pieces on this as a side project. Long way to go, but the youngest I've found so far are Bill Landy (Ge), 19y24d and Ron James (WB), 19y57d. James is the only one of the top 15 (so far) not to die in a war year.

Other unusual ones so far are John McCarthy (Co,PA) 22y295d (fall), Terry Ogden (Me,Ca) 23y342d (pleurisy), Troy Broadbridge (Me) 24y82d (drowned), Percy Barton (Ri) 24y88d (motorcycle accident), Ned Baptiste (SM) 24y102d (?), Colin Braid (Es) 24y204d (mining fall), Max Orr (Me) 24y246d (car accident), Dave Barry (SM) 24y325d (hit by train).

Haemorrhage of the lungs, it seems. It must be this poor fellow:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164438464 (22 June 1907)

Orme Baptist, who has played with the Rovers since the inception of the club, eight years ago, died of hemorrhage of the lungs on Wednesday afternoon at the Melbourne Hospital. Deceased was very popular with his club-mates and all who knew him. The Port Rovers F.C. expresses it heartfelt sympathy with ~
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'The Encyclopedia' (which has him as Nick Baptiste) says "ex-Port Rovers and Graham Street Methodists."

Orm was his nickname and he died 19 June 1907 according to Australian Football:- http://australianfootball.com/players/player/ned+baptiste/1826

 

[Ron The Bear]

A perverse question here.

Has any coach died (apart from Phil Walsh) while still coaching?

Nothing comparable. Jim Caldwell died "after a brief illness" three months after being sacked as South Melbourne coach early in 1929. Bob McCaskill was forced to stand down when entering his fourth season as Hawthorn coach due to Bright's disease, and passed away in June that year. Len Smith suffered several heart attacks and was eventually forced to retire three games into 1965. He died of another heart attack two years later. Brother Norm also suffered from heart problems and died less than a year after his final game.

Youngest coach to pass away was George McLaren, who filled in for one game as Footscray captain-coach in 1951 and was killed in a car accident five years later at 31y123d.

Oldest coach was Footscray Brownlow medallist Allan Hopkins, who lived to 97y39d. I believe the following are still alive - Keith McKenzie (NM,Ca), who will be 95 in April, and Ken Hands (Ca) & Noel McMahen (SM), both 91 in October. Another 16 surviving coaches are in their 80's.

 

[emuboy]

While talking about player deaths, as I noted on another thread once there have been a disproportionate number of Brisbane Bears players to have died before their time. Those to have died that I am aware of are Ken Judge (cancer), Phil Walsh (stabbing), Brent Green (drowned), Robert Dickson (car accident), Troy Clarke (brain aneurism) and Lawrence Schache (heart disorder). I can't name any Brisbane Lions players who have died, nor any players from the Adelaide Crows, while the Gold Coast and GWS haven't been around all that long. The West Coast Eagles, Fremantle Dockers and Port Adelaide have one each to my knowledge, respectively Chris Mainwaring, Gary Dhurrkay and John McCarthy.

Laurence Schache was a team-mate of Jamie Tape in the Woodville-West Torrens Eagles first premiership as a merged entity in 1993, and sadly Tape also died young, suffering a heart attack while driving in 2003 any dying in the ensuing car accident, this happening a few months after his recovery from cancer. The deaths of Tape and Schache were two of a number of players and officials associated with drought breaking or first premiership wins in South Australia. The captain of Central Districts first premiership team in 2000 Daniel Hulm died in London in 2001, and Sturt official Bob Marshall and player Josh Deegan were killed in the 2002 Bali Bombings while celebrating the Double Blues' first premiership since 1976 a week earlier. Phil Walsh was an assistant coach in Port Adelaide's 2004 AFL premiership side, as was future Melbourne coach Dean Bailey who died of cancer in 2014.

Melbourne have had a number of players and officials die prematurely over the past decade or so. In addition to 2008-2011 coach Dean Bailey, Irish players Jim Stynes and Sean Wight also died from cancer, as did early 1990s player Steven Clark. Troy Broadbridge died in the 2004 Boxing Day tsunami, and club legend Robert Flower died a year short of his 60th birthday in 2014.

 

[worbod]

On a slightly different note to my previous question about teams being locked together on the same total of wins after a large total of games played, which player has played the most games for an even career win-loss record? Liam Picken currently has played in 88 wins and 88 losses after 176 games.

 

[Ron The Bear]

On a slightly different note to my previous question about teams being locked together on the same total of wins after a large total of games played, which player has played the most games for an even career win-loss record? Liam Picken currently has played in 88 wins and 88 losses after 176 games.

Player|P|W|L|D|Year|Rd|Club(s)|Career
\Quinlan, Bernie|362|178|178|6|1986|20|WB,Fi|366
\Johnson, Brad|359|176|176|7|2010|19|WB|364
\Harvey, Robert|349|173|173|3|2007|9|St|383
\Pavlich, Matthew|334|167|167|-|2015|QF|Fr|353
\Nankervis, Ian J.|317|158|158|1|1983|14|Ge|325
\Riewoldt, Nick|318|156|156|6|2016|22|St|319
\Dempsey, Gary|306|151|151|4|1983|5|WB,NM|329
\Crawford, Shane|298|148|148|2|2008|15|Ha|305
\Cox, Dean|285|142|142|1|2014|15|WC|290
\Breen, Barry|287|141|141|5|1981|11|St|300
\Petrie, Drew|283|140|140|3|2015|15|NM|316
\Boyd, Matthew|280|139|139|2|2016|SF|WB|282
\Hayes, Lenny|284|139|139|6|2014|8|St|297
\Ricciuto, Mark|279|139|139|1|2005|17|Ad|312
\Koutoufides, Anthony|275|136|136|3|2007|14|Ca|278
\Cornes, Kane|268|133|133|2|2013|SF|PA|300
\Lynch, Alastair|268|133|133|2|2002|22|Fi,Br|306
\Maxfield, Stuart|269|133|133|3|2004|9|Ri,Sy|289
\Blakey, John|264|132|132|-|1998|15|Fi,NM|359
\Greene, Russell|267|131|131|5|1986|PF|St,Ha|304
\Bickley, Mark|256|128|128|-|2003|8|Ad|272
\Broderick, Paul|257|128|128|1|2001|20|Fi,Ri|262
\Febey, Steven|256|128|128|-|2001|20|Me|258
\Clarke, Matthew|257|127|127|3|2007|20|Br,Ad,St|258
\Embley, Andrew|249|124|124|1|2013|21|WC|250

The highest final career tally is for Jim Cleary (SM), 222-110-110-2 (Picken equal 5th if he doesn't play again).

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Melbourne have had a number of players and officials die prematurely over the past decade or so. In addition to 2008-2011 coach Dean Bailey, Irish players Jim Stynes and Sean Wight also died from cancer, as did early 1990s player Steven Clark. Troy Broadbridge died in the 2004 Boxing Day tsunami, and club legend Robert Flower died a year short of his 60th birthday in 2014.

Former Dees player Wayne Gordon died of cancer a couple of years after his playing career.