Roast St Kilda in no mans land

[aussierulesrules]

It seems to be about St Kilda not being flag contenders and not rebuilding, for almost 14 seasons.

We’re rebuilding at the moment.

It’s just not obvious because we’re doing it while remaining highly competitive and winning every second week.

We’ve cleaned out about half our list in the last couple of years and apparently have 24 listed players who were born in 2001 or later, and have drafted eleven 17 or 18yo’s in the last two national drafts. Plus we just added an 18yo from Ireland.

That’s over a quarter of our list who are currently under 20yo.

Next year we could have as low as the 4th-youngest list, with only Richmond, North and West Coast younger.

 

[jumperfan]

It seems to be about St Kilda not being flag contenders and not rebuilding, for almost 14 seasons.

We're pretty clearly rebuilding. We've had significant list turnover in the last two seasons and have hit the draft very heavily. Lots of players from the Richardson/Ratten era have been cut in favour of new blood.

 

[Verdun]

It seems to be about St Kilda not being flag contenders and not rebuilding, for almost 14 seasons.

From a mod and a Hawthorn supporter; first pick in the draft this year coming in at pick 33 must be a bit bored so he gets on here .......... oh the irony.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

From a mod and a Hawthorn supporter; first pick in the draft this year coming in at pick 33 must be a bit bored so he gets on here .......... oh the irony.

Are we not allowed to discuss St Kilda?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

We’re rebuilding at the moment.

It’s just not obvious because we’re doing it while remaining highly competitive and winning every second week.

We’ve cleaned out about half our list in the last couple of years and apparently have 24 listed players who were born in 2001 or later, and have drafted eleven 17 or 18yo’s in the last two national drafts. Plus we just added an 18yo from Ireland.

That’s over a quarter of our list who are currently under 20yo.

Next year we could have as low as the 4th-youngest list, with only Richmond, North and West Coast younger.

By remaining ‘highly competitive’ as you say, which is debatable, you’ve not really bottomed out, and as a consequence, you’ve collected a bunch of good young talents but it remains to be seen if any of them are really going to take you up the ladder or to a period where you can challenge.

In essence , this is the very reason why this thread is discussing whether the St Kilda are in no man’s land, because it certainly seems like you need a couple of top 3-5 picks(for your midfield), rather than collecting picks later on.

 

[phantom13]

By remaining ‘highly competitive’ as you say, which is debatable, you’ve not really bottomed out, and as a consequence, you’ve collected a bunch of good young talents but it remains to be seen if any of them are really going to take you up the ladder or to a period where you can challenge.

In essence , this is the very reason why this thread is discussing whether the St Kilda are in no man’s land, because it certainly seems like you need a couple of top 3-5 picks(for your midfield), rather than collecting picks later on.

Or we could do what you do and just take FAs.

Full rebuild and bottom out makes sense if youre already shit. We made finals in 23 so were clearly no a mile off it.

Ours looks like a mini rebuild keeping the core components that work.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Or we could do what you do and just take FAs.

Full rebuild and bottom out makes sense if youre already shit. We made finals in 23 so were clearly no a mile off it.

Ours looks like a mini rebuild keeping the core components that work.

You could but then the difficult question you’d have to ask yourself and the risk that comes with that would be what top level FA’s would choose to move to a club that isn’t an MCG tenant, doesn’t get marquee games and has no history of success.

 

[phantom13]

You could but then the difficult question you’d have to ask yourself and the risk that comes with that would be what top level FA’s would choose to move to a club that isn’t an MCG tenant, doesn’t get marquee games and has no history of success.

Were very well aware of the short comings of our club as a destination but if were looking more successful (eg on the cusp of challenging) with an exciting young list, state of the art facilities a well respected coach and truckload of cash we might be more appealing than you might think.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Were very well aware of the short comings of our club as a destination but if were looking more successful (eg on the cusp of challenging) with an exciting young list, state of the art facilities a well respected coach and truckload of cash we might be more appealing than you might think.

The problem would be what clubs you’re then competing with who are in a similar spot in a few years time, but I think getting back to the point about St Kilda’s rebuild, in my opinion you’re still light on for top end talent, particularly through the middle.

 

[phantom13]

The problem would be what clubs you’re then competing with who are in a similar spot in a few years time, but I think getting back to the point about St Kilda’s rebuild, in my opinion you’re still light on for top end talent, particularly through the middle.

Through the middle yes but id say we have a better handle on our list than you.

We have AA caliber talent in our backline, a solid stopper and a plethora of wing/flank runners. Max King is top tier we just havent unlocked him yet and Butler, Higgins, Henry are all talented small forwards.

Steele and Macrae are AA and weve got some youth that looks handy to very very good coming through.

If we develop this year as we would internally expect, play and maybe win a final with some natural progression then snare a top end FA 2026 will look very bright.

Of course it could all fall in a heap, as could Hokball but id rather have a crack with that weve got.

 

[LordLucifer]

Why hasn’t this thread been moved to Bay 13. It’s ****ing ridiculous bullshit that adds nothing to the debate as to why the saints are still shit.

Why ??

Because it is exceptional reading for all non-Saints fans.

 

[jumperfan]

Why ??

Because it is exceptional reading for all non-Saints fans.

Is it? It's basically the same weak trolling every time. There's zero creativity.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Through the middle yes but id say we have a better handle on our list than you.

So you agree, but you also don’t?

Can you name your next-in mids that will take you forward?

We have AA caliber talent in our backline, a solid stopper and a plethora of wing/flank runners. Max King is top tier we just havent unlocked him yet and Butler, Higgins, Henry are all talented small forwards.

I think you’re a bit thin down back which is why you play a defensive style across the park, but happy for you to name your starting back 7.

Butler had an ordinary 2024 so he needs to find something, Higgins is a talent but Henry only kicked 7 goals in 2024, so not sure he’s much of a forward just yet.

Steele and Macrae are AA and weve got some youth that looks handy to very very good coming through.

I don’t rate Steele as highly as you. Nice player. Nothing that most clubs don’t have. Macrae should be a decent pick up, but barely hurts the oppo with his possessions.

If we develop this year as we would internally expect, play and maybe win a final with some natural progression then snare a top end FA 2026 will look very bright.

Problem for Saints again is who you’d be competing with to make finals. The comps never been so even, and I honestly don’t see the talent to push passed others and make the 8.

Time will tell I guess.

 

[LordLucifer]

Is it? It's basically the same weak trolling every time. There's zero creativity.

There is no trolling, its all fact !!!

 

[FlyHigh18]

We're pretty clearly rebuilding. We've had significant list turnover in the last two seasons and have hit the draft very heavily. Lots of players from the Richardson/Ratten era have been cut in favour of new blood.

does the club know they're rebuilding?

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Is it? It's basically the same weak trolling every time. There's zero creativity.

No need to be creative when its fact

You think its trolling because you don't agree

 

[Hamingja]

I can't believe they made it public they were going to take a player from Sandy and then didn't follow through.

Can't imagine that is encouraging top up players down to the club.

 

[aussierulesrules]

By remaining ‘highly competitive’ as you say, which is debatable, you’ve not really bottomed out, and as a consequence, you’ve collected a bunch of good young talents but it remains to be seen if any of them are really going to take you up the ladder or to a period where you can challenge.

Well we were top 6 for all bar 1 week of the H&A season last year (despite loads of injuries), and then this year, after a nightmare start- where we were again smashed by injuries early in particular, and on top of that had a brutal draw in the first 9 weeks (5 of our first 9 games interstate or in Geelong, ZERO legitimate home ground advantage games, two 5-day breaks, only two games on our home deck (both against co-tenants)- we won 8 of our last 12 and 5 of our last 6, so I would have thought that was “highly competitive”.

Even in that early part of the year, when we lost 6 of those first 9, while miles off full-strength, 5 of the 6 losses were by 10 points or less. All to good sides, 4 of the 5 interstate/Geelong, against eventual finalists.

That’s a highly competitive team.

We got no credit for it though, because no-one in the media bothers to look into why a team like St Kilda isn’t winning, they just go “they’re losing, they’re crap, they haven’t got enough talent, derp”.

The vast majority of them wouldn’t have had a clue that we we went into R1 missing 8 of our best 23, only to then lose Crouch forever during that game, and then Wood and Henry for extended periods the following week. There was generally no mention of how far off full strength we were. While also contending with a ridiculously difficult draw for the first 9 rounds.

As for the talent we’ve been able to acquire, while it’s true that you don’t typically get the crème of the crop with picks in say the 8-18 range like we’ve had in the last 4 years, we do look like we’ve struck gold with Phillipou, Wanganeeen-Milera and Wilson, and we’ve also got a heap of other highly talented and promising kids among the 24 born in 2001 or later (headed by Owens, Henry, Windhager, Caminiti, Garcia, Schoenmaker etc), and we’ve just added 6 more from a supposed “super-draft” (including two from the top 10), so I’m confident that we have about as good a young group as pretty much any team, especially from a pure quantity of young talent perspective.

Now we just wait to see if any like Phillipou in particular are able to really explode and end up top 10 in the comp types.

If they do, guns from other clubs will want to come and play with them and see if they can be the difference between us winning a flag or not.

In essence , this is the very reason why this thread is discussing whether the St Kilda are in no man’s land, because it certainly seems like you need a couple of top 3-5 picks(for your midfield), rather than collecting picks later on.

Unless something goes horribly awry, Pou looks like being one of those guys you can build a midfield and club around.

He wants to be the best player in the game and is the type who will leave no stone unturned in pursuit of that goal.

He’s probably the best we’ve drafted since Riewoldt, or definitely Goddard, over 20 years ago. I’m sure if Essendon had their time again he goes pick 5 in that draft.

I dare say you think Hawthorn are a huge premiership chance in coming years, yet none of your current best mids were taken in the top 12.

Pou was, and on talent alone he should have gone top 5.

 

[jumperfan]

does the club know they're rebuilding?

Given that 25 of the 47 players on the 2022 list have been moved on in the last 3 off-seasons in favour of mostly 18 year olds from the draft I would assume so.

No need to be creative when its fact

You think its trolling because you don't agree

Regardless of semantics, it's still weak. This is a roast thread, not a light microwave one. Don't bring in the same old nonsense, bring some proper statistics that prove that we aren't going anywhere and haven't made any changes to get out of no-man's land.

 

[BIGHAWK23]

Given that 25 of the 47 players on the 2022 list have been moved on in the last 3 off-seasons in favour of mostly 18 year olds from the draft I would assume so.

Regardless of semantics, it's still weak. This is a roast thread, not a light microwave one. Don't bring in the same old nonsense, bring some proper statistics that prove that we aren't going anywhere and haven't made any changes to get out of no-man's land.

Your getting annoyed about people providing opinions and facts on a football forum

People can bring what they like

5th youngest list based on age
10th on average games

You haven't bottomed out yet

 

[BrutThough]

I love when the argument is just 'pfft, well I just dont rate them' as if that opinion is somehow more valid than the stats, rankings or facts that support the original comment.

 

[phantom13]

So you agree, but you also don’t?

Can you name your next-in mids that will take you forward?


I think you’re a bit thin down back which is why you play a defensive style across the park, but happy for you to name your starting back 7.

Butler had an ordinary 2024 so he needs to find something, Higgins is a talent but Henry only kicked 7 goals in 2024, so not sure he’s much of a forward just yet.

I don’t rate Steele as highly as you. Nice player. Nothing that most clubs don’t have. Macrae should be a decent pick up, but barely hurts the oppo with his possessions.

Problem for Saints again is who you’d be competing with to make finals. The comps never been so even, and I honestly don’t see the talent to push passed others and make the 8.

Time will tell I guess.

I agree that were light on for top end talent through the midfield. I dont agree with just about everything else youve said and even the midfield now is a position weve adressed through a trade (albeit we need to go harder)

Your position is clear and its not objective at all (I didnt say how i rate Jack Steele or Jack Macrae i simply stated they are both AA quality, which they are 2 and 3 times respectively). The flow on effect and allowed development of Macrae and Steele is the important bit (something you would know first hand from Will Day as an example).

the "problem" youre referring to is well known and frankly over discussed at this point. If were chasing LDU next to you we will need to offer more money, thing is, we can and we know it will take that.

With some natural development into Pou, King, Wilson, Nasiah and Garcia supported by established stars in Macrae, Wilkie, Sinclair, Hill, Marshall and Higgins decent depth with Byrnes, Stocker, Dow, Jones, Clark and then some good looking kids in Schoenmakers, Tobie, Keeler, Hastie, Collard and Tauru im pretty happy with where were heading. Might not pan out the way we want but you need some luck in this game to go with the plan. I think weve got one aspect pretty well covered at the moment.

 

[phantom13]

Your getting annoyed about people providing opinions and facts on a football forum

People can bring what they like

5th youngest list based on age
10th on average games

You haven't bottomed out yet

We havent and were not planning on doing so with the group weve got. You dont HAVE to bottom out when youre a year removed from playing finals.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I agree that were light on for top end talent through the midfield. I dont agree with just about everything else youve said and even the midfield now is a position weve adressed through a trade (albeit we need to go harder)

Your position is clear and its not objective at all (I didnt say how i rate Jack Steele or Jack Macrae i simply stated they are both AA quality, which they are 2 and 3 times respectively). The flow on effect and allowed development of Macrae and Steele is the important bit (something you would know first hand from Will Day as an example).

the "problem" youre referring to is well known and frankly over discussed at this point. If were chasing LDU next to you we will need to offer more money, thing is, we can and we know it will take that.

With some natural development into Pou, King, Wilson, Nasiah and Garcia supported by established stars in Macrae, Wilkie, Sinclair, Hill, Marshall and Higgins decent depth with Byrnes, Stocker, Dow, Jones, Clark and then some good looking kids in Schoenmakers, Tobie, Keeler, Hastie, Collard and Tauru im pretty happy with where were heading. Might not pan out the way we want but you need some luck in this game to go with the plan. I think weve got one aspect pretty well covered at the moment.

You didn’t really address either of my queries regarding your midfield or back 7.

I’d be interested to see who you put forward for both.

 

[jumperfan]

Your getting annoyed about people providing opinions and facts on a football forum

People can bring what they like

5th youngest list based on age
10th on average games

You haven't bottomed out yet

I get annoyed because a number of people in this thread aren't interested in having a reasonable discussion. The topic is an interesting one and there are definitely arguments to be made both ways, but most non-Saints fans in this thread seem to think that they know more about the team than those of us who actually watch every St Kilda and Sandringham game. There's never any budging on any viewpoint, even when presented with information that clearly states the opposite.

Also why do we need to bottom out to prove that we're rebuilding? I'd much rather be in our position winning a reasonable number of games per year than, say North's or West Coast's, and I daresay you would too. It's better for the development of the players. As mentioned previously, we've turned over more than half the list in the last few seasons and have backed in our recruiting staff to make the most of less-than-ideal picks in some cases. Some have missed, yes, but the most important ones, i.e. the first rounders, seem to be hits so far.