Coach So you want Voss gone? Who will replace him and why would they want to coach Carlton?

[JustaBattler]

It’s not deflection.
Cox is an example of my point.

A 23 year old who had never seen a footy was taught how to kick properly. How to position and block. And yes is now a premiership player.
All these things can be taught and improved. Other clubs do this better than us.

How many years of development went into him BEFORE he was asked to play firsts? ? Meanwhile list management at Carlton pick Mirvac and waste how many years? OR McDonald with known back issues as a 2nd KPD back-up 2 years on the injured list and then follow up with Sam Durdin- 3 years on the injured list...

sAcK vOsS

Any coach is only as good as the list he can use- if that is rocket science to you - that isnt my problem.

Ohhhh coaches can train and develop these poor kicks and handballers and runners and if they cant SACK!

It takes a many years to get an AFL body and brain good enough to fit into a team that can actually compete against good opposition -and that is if they have the personal drive to get there and do a lot of work themselves if they need to.

You are asking Voss to make up for too many poor players whilst competing against teams with far fewer poor players - expectations way too high I think.

However clearly game plan and now he doesnt take skills seriously enough ...maybe Voss's red hair is also an issue- puts players off their kicking and hand balling - that has as much credibility as suggesting players dont kick the ball or handball it in every training session= - because Voss doesnt ask them to...everyone just run around with no ball tackling each other...

Come on now get real.

 

[Soapy V]

How many years of development went into him BEFORE he was asked to play firsts? ? Meanwhile list management at Carlton pick Mirvac and waste how many years? OR McDonald with known back issues as a 2nd KPD back-up 2 years on the injured list and then follow up with Sam Durdin- 3 years on the injured list...

sAcK vOsS

Any coach is only as good as the list he can use- if that is rocket science to you - that isnt my problem.

Ohhhh coaches can train and develop these poor kicks and handballers and runners and if they cant SACK!

It takes a many years to get an AFL body and brain good enough to fit into a team that can actually compete against good opposition -and that is if they have the personal drive to get there and do a lot of work themselves if they need to.

You are asking Voss to make up for too many poor players whilst competing against teams with far fewer poor players - expectations way too high I think.

However clearly game plan and now he doesnt take skills seriously enough ...maybe Voss's red hair is also an issue- puts players off their kicking and hand balling - that has as much credibility as suggesting players dont kick the ball or handball it in every training session= - because Voss doesnt ask them to...everyone just run around with no ball tackling each other...

Come on now get real.

TBF I don’t think Stamos or anyone said sack Voss because of skills

It’s just been mentioned as an issue that should be addressed and many believe could be better

We have many skill issues amongst our group but IMO we still don’t get the most out of our group and that is on the coach(es)

 

[jackn]

The “debate” stopped at 11.45am today.

Many saying - it was just a win, nothing more - nothing to take from this game.

If Voss is as bad as those lambasting him have said - why has the vitriol stopped?

My post “ Heeeello” was the first since 11.45.

The silence is deafening.

Voss has yet to prove he's anything more than a slightly below average coach. Many believe he's a bad coach. Some, like yourself, believe a decade is not long enough to decide and he needs the "benefit of the doubt" and more time.

It's wonderful for you that you are able to consider beating the worst team since Fitzroy support for keeping him. Must be great needing such a low burden of proof to consider yourself right.

Voss has still not coached a win against anyone other than the 2 bottom teams since June last year. He's also led us to a loss against a team that potentially would have gone winless if not for us. Let's see if he's good enough to conquer north next week. They're a lot better than they were last year when we met them. Are we?

 

[Soapy V]

Voss has yet to prove he's anything more than a slightly below average coach. Many believe he's a bad coach. Some, like yourself, believe a decade is not long enough to decide and he needs the "benefit of the doubt" and more time.

It's wonderful for you that you are able to consider beating the worst team since Fitzroy support for keeping him. Must be great needing such a low burden of proof to consider yourself right.

Voss has still not coached a win against anyone other than the 2 bottom teams since June last year. He's also led us to a loss against a team that potentially would have gone winless if not for us. Let's see if he's good enough to conquer north next week. They're a lot better than they were last year when we met them. Are we?

Strong but fair

 

[JustaBattler]

TBF I don’t think Stamos or anyone said sack Voss because of skills

It’s just been mentioned as an issue that should be addressed and many believe could be better

We have many skill issues amongst our group but IMO we still don’t get the most out of our group and that is on the coach(es)

If I thought Voss was the major problem we have at Carlton I'd be going really hard to get rid of him - like I did with Malthou$e.

People want a magic pill and instead of looking at the actual players and their on field performances - they see an easier way to get better by changing coaches...has been done at Carlton for the whole of this century it is just cut paste repeat cycle.

People are now comparing Carlton's run in 2023 with this team -I mean really don't they know how many players in that run are no longer even at the Club?


Meh

 

[Soapy V]

If I thought Voss was the major problem we have at Carlton I'd be going really hard to get rid of him - like I did with Malthou$e.

People want a magic pill and instead of looking at the actual players and their on field performances - they see an easier way to get better by changing coaches...has been done at Carlton for the whole of this century it is just cut paste repeat cycle.

People are now comparing Carlton's run in 2023 with this team -I mean really don't they know how many players in that run are no longer even at the Club?


Meh

Like you people are entitled to their opinions

I just think it was unfair to say people wanted him sacked because of skills. I don’t think that is correct

TBF most on here have a very balanced view and don’t believe in sacking the coach will cure our issues. Most see it as part of the puzzle to fix our current situation. I haven’t read one post that says our list is perfect or a flag list

 

[Stamos]

How many years of development went into him BEFORE he was asked to play firsts? ? Meanwhile list management at Carlton pick Mirvac and waste how many years? OR McDonald with known back issues as a 2nd KPD back-up 2 years on the injured list and then follow up with Sam Durdin- 3 years on the injured list...

sAcK vOsS

Any coach is only as good as the list he can use- if that is rocket science to you - that isnt my problem.

Ohhhh coaches can train and develop these poor kicks and handballers and runners and if they cant SACK!

It takes a many years to get an AFL body and brain good enough to fit into a team that can actually compete against good opposition -and that is if they have the personal drive to get there and do a lot of work themselves if they need to.

You are asking Voss to make up for too many poor players whilst competing against teams with far fewer poor players - expectations way too high I think.

However clearly game plan and now he doesnt take skills seriously enough ...maybe Voss's red hair is also an issue- puts players off their kicking and hand balling - that has as much credibility as suggesting players dont kick the ball or handball it in every training session= - because Voss doesnt ask them to...everyone just run around with no ball tackling each other...

Come on now get real.

You’re completely missing my point.
McRae was an assistant coach at the Filth when Cox arrived. He taught him how to play. And his philosophy as a senior coach is that the fundamentals are the most important thing.
And Collingwood are very good at the fundamentals.

But we are not.
This isn’t a brand new problem, it’s been an issue pre-Voss. But it has not improved under Voss either. I’ve never said he’s solely responsible, just that we are not well coached. And our fundamentals are poor.
And that we are not getting the best out of our list. Which is what a coach is meant to do.

 

[Flaggers22]

It's possible, but contested ball is still a strong feature of other clubs that are currently travelling well, Cats, Lions, Pies, Suns all top 5 in contested footy

The claim is that we have over-indexed on winning contested ball not that contested ball is not important. In short, I am saying we don't have the balance in our game that the top teams do. The fact that some of the best teams excel in this facet of the game is not noteworthy, good teams will perform well across most statistical markers, that's what makes them good teams.

List Management certainly has played a part, as such, which players have not been selected that have better footskills and or speed?

Selections/Positional Switches I'd consider:
Boyd - would be a lock if I were in charge of the match committee, whether that be as a defender or not. I'd definitely consider playing him in another position, like a high half forward or a wing (not sure if he has the tank for the latter), but he'd definitely help address our woeful entries inside 50 in either role

L Camporeale - I understand he's green but I think it's rather unlikely we end up contending this year, and I think we should prioritise development over immediate results. Although it hasn't shown on the stat sheet so far, he's a good kick I think he just needs time to adjust to the speed of the game. Moreover, there's much to be said about playing a winger on their preferred side of the ground (a left footer running up the left side of the ground has a wider range of kicking motion than a right footer).

O Hollands - move him back to the wing, he's not an elite kick, but he's a better kick than either Acres or Docherty. I'm pretty happy with Matt Carroll and think he should be a permanent part of the backline moving forward, so it make sense to move Hollands back up the ground when Cowan comes back.

I understand that a lot of the players who are critical to our ball movement are currently injured atm either with long term (Newman, Jagga) or short term absences (E. Hollands, Fantasia), but I think he's consistenly selecting players who are undermining our ball use.

Young - would be a permanent fixture in the reserves, he's cost us dearly in just about every game he has played to date, he should be a last resort, not one of the first backups. If we need a key forward, play Lemmey, if we need a backup ruck play O'Keefe, if we need a key defender play O'Farrell. Young is a poor decision maker, slow to move the ball, timid with ball in hand, and makes basic kicks look difficult. I'm critical of list management for keeping him on the list for this long, but just as critical of Voss for not putting a line through his name

Acres - Probably an unpopular one, I went into length on this in a previous post, so I'll keep it short. His ball use is just too bad to play on a wing. It's a position where the most beneficial traits to have are precision kicking and a high aerobic base. He's not an elite runner and he's a poor kick, he's got other attributes that make him afl standard, but I'm not sure he makes sense for us give our deficencies and the position we have him in.

Docherty - Again not sure he's a winger for similar reasons to Acres, I'd consider shifting him to half back and dropping Haynes. If the undersized backline doesn't work out we can always just revert back to Haynes

Fogarty - He's poor by foot, has no depth to his kicking, and doesn't hit the scoreboard. Would drop him for Fantasia or Hollands the second they become available.

I'll just conclude by saying I'm sitting fairly comfortably in the sack Voss camp, I think we have the nucleus of a premiership winning list, it's just unbalanced. If it were up to me I'd probably trade one of Mckay or De Koning to get the currency to address some of these imbalances. In saying that, I don't think having list imbalances absolves Voss of the poor performances, most recent premiers have had list holes. I am extremely concerned by our inconsistent form across each season, we're like Jekyll and Hyde in that regard, and I wonder whether this points to Voss' inability to adjust to the tactics other teams are throwing at us. This team has proven to me that they can play at a high level, which he deserves credit for, but he also has to maintain it.

 

[Arr0w]

The claim is that we have over-indexed on winning contested ball not that contested ball is not important.

No, that wasn't the claim I was responding to, in my interactions with another poster

 

[carlton_99]

Acres - Probably an unpopular one, I went into length on this in a previous post, so I'll keep it short. His ball use is just too bad to play on a wing. It's a position where the most beneficial traits to have are precision kicking and a high aerobic base. He's not an elite runner and he's a poor kick, he's got other attributes that make him afl standard, but I'm not sure he makes sense for us give our deficencies and the position we have him in.

Acres not an elite runner? Really not sure about that. His endurance is one of his major strengths. Covers the ground incredibly well

 

[Soapy V]

The claim is that we have over-indexed on winning contested ball not that contested ball is not important. In short, I am saying we don't have the balance in our game that the top teams do. The fact that some of the best teams excel in this facet of the game is not noteworthy, good teams will perform well across most statistical markers, that's what makes them good teams.

Selections/Positional Switches I'd consider:
Boyd - would be a lock if I were in charge of the match committee, whether that be as a defender or not. I'd definitely consider playing him in another position, like a high half forward or a wing (not sure if he has the tank for the latter), but he'd definitely help address our woeful entries inside 50 in either role

L Camporeale - I understand he's green but I think it's rather unlikely we end up contending this year, and I think we should prioritise development over immediate results. Although it hasn't shown on the stat sheet so far, he's a good kick I think he just needs time to adjust to the speed of the game. Moreover, there's much to be said about playing a winger on their preferred side of the ground (a left footer running up the left side of the ground has a wider range of kicking motion than a right footer).

O Hollands - move him back to the wing, he's not an elite kick, but he's a better kick than either Acres or Docherty. I'm pretty happy with Matt Carroll and think he should be a permanent part of the backline moving forward, so it make sense to move Hollands back up the ground when Cowan comes back.

I understand that a lot of the players who are critical to our ball movement are currently injured atm either with long term (Newman, Jagga) or short term absences (E. Hollands, Fantasia), but I think he's consistenly selecting players who are undermining our ball use.

Young - would be a permanent fixture in the reserves, he's cost us dearly in just about every game he has played to date, he should be a last resort, not one of the first backups. If we need a key forward, play Lemmey, if we need a backup ruck play O'Keefe, if we need a key defender play O'Farrell. Young is a poor decision maker, slow to move the ball, timid with ball in hand, and makes basic kicks look difficult. I'm critical of list management for keeping him on the list for this long, but just as critical of Voss for not putting a line through his name

Acres - Probably an unpopular one, I went into length on this in a previous post, so I'll keep it short. His ball use is just too bad to play on a wing. It's a position where the most beneficial traits to have are precision kicking and a high aerobic base. He's not an elite runner and he's a poor kick, he's got other attributes that make him afl standard, but I'm not sure he makes sense for us give our deficencies and the position we have him in.

Docherty - Again not sure he's a winger for similar reasons to Acres, I'd consider shifting him to half back and dropping Haynes. If the undersized backline doesn't work out we can always just revert back to Haynes

Fogarty - He's poor by foot, has no depth to his kicking, and doesn't hit the scoreboard. Would drop him for Fantasia or Hollands the second they become available.

I'll just conclude by saying I'm sitting fairly comfortably in the sack Voss camp, I think we have the nucleus of a premiership winning list, it's just unbalanced. If it were up to me I'd probably trade one of Mckay or De Koning to get the currency to address some of these imbalances. In saying that, I don't think having list imbalances absolves Voss of the poor performances, most recent premiers have had list holes. I am extremely concerned by our inconsistent form across each season, we're like Jekyll and Hyde in that regard, and I wonder whether this points to Voss' inability to adjust to the tactics other teams are throwing at us. This team has proven to me that they can play at a high level, which he deserves credit for, but he also has to maintain it.

Good post. I agree with 90% of it

 

[Arr0w]

If people think the, only, or first step, or part of the solution, is to sack Voss, which many people have posted, that's their prerogative

Plenty of coaches within a narrow bracket of quality, and l have never been rusted on to any coach

My focus is, and has always has been the list, IMHO and many that are still imbeded in the industry, believe the quality of list is the most important factor to success

 

[Stamos]

My focus is, and has always has been the list, IMHO and many that are still imbeded in the industry, believe the quality of list is the most important factor to success

Our list is good enough to be performing better than we have been.

That’s why people aren’t happy with the coaching.

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

I’m happy to continue as is for now.
However those bemoaning the quality of our list as an out for Voss, need to remember that while he may not be the list manager, I’m sure he would have fairly high level input to recruiting decisions, and some of those have been mind boggling.
If he gets replaced my preference is Longmire, providing he’s still passionate about coaching.

 

[Arr0w]

Our list is good enough to be performing better than we have been.

Which I have also stated countless times, this group needs to achieve a consistent baseline

That’s why people aren’t happy with the coaching.

That's why some, many, but not all share that view

If you think the number 1 factor is coaching, that's your view, my focus will remain on a varied number of factors

Will be interesting how it plays out

 

[Soapy V]

Our list is good enough to be performing better than we have been.

That’s why people aren’t happy with the coaching.

That’s the bottom line for me. Is the coach getting the best out of the group

IMO it isn’t close. Only beaten WCE and North in last 10 months

Not even close to good enough

 

[Arr0w]

Alistair Lynch

"Ross Lyon after last week, talked about contest and pressure being one of the keys for them"

 

[NavySteel]

Alistair Lynch

"Ross Lyon after last week, talked about contest and pressure being one of the keys for them"

Contest and pressure don’t mean much when you can finish your work or hit a target.

 

[jj1978]

Right... can't give a proper answer?

Let's try again:

Why weren't the injuries and our poor list a factor from second half of 2023 season?

A former president offered to have personal photo shoots with the players if they didn’t lift????

 

[Arr0w]

Contest and pressure don’t mean much when you can finish your work or hit a target.

Absolutely just sharing what the focus is for another coach, same as ours

Would be great if we had the likes of NWM, Hill, Sinclair, Higgins footskills and speed though

 

[Soapy V]

Contest and pressure don’t mean much when you can finish your work or hit a target.

Yep. Contest, pressure, effort etc should be the base for any side. Most understand this

It’s then what you do next that matters

 

[Franc de Borges]

If I thought Voss was the major problem we have at Carlton I'd be going really hard to get rid of him - like I did with Malthou$e.

People want a magic pill and instead of looking at the actual players and their on field performances - they see an easier way to get better by changing coaches...has been done at Carlton for the whole of this century it is just cut paste repeat cycle.

People are now comparing Carlton's run in 2023 with this team -I mean really don't they know how many players in that run are no longer even at the Club?


Meh

Your issues with the list are valid, but how would Collingwood have gone in 2022-23 with Voss as coach?

McRae turned a very average list into premiers. Frankly, it was an incredible achievement.

Our inability to create solid, skilled, reliable players is so stark in comparison to other teams. Who are ours? Hewett, Newman, and Saad, none of which were nurtured at the Club.

We have several issues, but the coaching and development is sub-par.

 

[Franc de Borges]

Alistair Lynch

"Ross Lyon after last week, talked about contest and pressure being one of the keys for them"

The fact the quote came from him only magnifies our issues. We’re aspiring to St. Kilda’s lofty standards now?

 

[Soapy V]

Your issues with the list are valid, but how would Collingwood have gone in 2022-23 with Voss as coach?

McRae turned a very average list into premiers. Frankly, it was an incredible achievement.

Our inability to create solid, skilled, reliable players is so stark in comparison to other teams. Who are ours? Hewett, Newman, and Saad, none of which were nurtured at the Club.

We have several issues, but the coaching and development is sub-par.

Great post. Many Collingwood supporters were complaining about list and wanting a full on rebuild. Said they were unskilled and slow

With the right people in charge things can change and change quickly

 

[Accidental genius]

Great post. Many Collingwood supporters were complaining about list and wanting a full on rebuild. Said they were unskilled and slow

With the right people in charge things can change and change quickly

Imagine what a “good” coaching group could do with our list…

Stars on every line