Autopsy Round 7 - St Kilda v Brisbane

[aussierulesrules]

Can someone explain why Hugo was subbed so early?

Plenty of other were worse than him …

Not sure the second part of that is true. He had 4 disposals in a quarter and a half and I’m pretty sure they said in commentary that his opponent had had something like 7 disposals in 8 minutes, just prior to him being subbed off.

We were getting slaughtered in the midfield and the game was getting away from us and we obviously believed we needed to make a change in there, so he was the one to go.

 

[Big 0]

Biggest Steele critic on here but any moron critiquing his game today, in contrast to his against WB and Adelaide, is at best biased against him

 

[mad-saint-guy]

Time to actually mix things up

Out: Wood (conc), Collard (managed), Byrnes, Jones, Keeler
In: Boxshall, Boyd, Hastie, Pou, O'Connell

B: Webster, Howard, Wilkie
HB: Sinclair, Caminiti, Hastie
C: Hill, McQuay, Windhager
HF: Hall, Sharman, Pou
F: Higgins, Marshall, Wilson

Foll: Boyd, Nas, Owens
Int: Boxshall, Steele, O'Connell, Stocker
Sub: Garcia

Owens, Pou and Steele to all rotate between mid/forward. Give Nas 50% of the game in the middle. Boyd would be more competitive than Marshall in the middle right now and Marshall would be more competitive forward than Keeler. Keep Caminiti back and let Wilkie play an intercept role on the third forward. Have O'Connell spend some time on a wing in the Wood role. Wilson to play as a pressure forward to get some discipline and physicality back.

 

[RBW_007]

Biggest Steele critic on here but any moron critiquing his game today, in contrast to his against WB and Adelaide, is at best biased against him

You could tell he was really making an effort, particularly to win the contested ball. He played like a guy with a lot on his mind. It showed when he dropped that easy mark. Had too much time to think about the next play most likely.

 

[RBW_007]

His inability to half any contest is just brutal to watch.

Has lost his ability to be damaging IMO. Just racks up meaningless possessions, playing bruise free football. I can't see the point.

I wouldnt be surprised if Brisbane players were instructed to kick the ball to whoever Hill was on when entering 50 because that seemed to happen a fair bit.

 

[CursingFijian]

Biggest Steele critic on here but any moron critiquing his game today, in contrast to his against WB and Adelaide, is at best biased against him

He worked hard for sure, but gee he makes it look like hard work. NAS makes it look effortless.

 

[RBW_007]

Stkilda has had a play style issue for a couple of years now. It is the same issue you see with a lot of the bottom half teams. That is they chase the ball. They all play close to the ball and I think it is a result of not having confidence in each other. It results in a “playing in a telephone booth” style.

If you look at teams like Pies and Lions and Adelaide, they create space. One maybe two go to the contest, the rest run to create space and options.

Saints occasionally play that game. They get their tail up snd go for it. But more usually they play a bottom 8 style game. This game was one of those.

Personally, I think the Saints just have to focus on playing a modern game. Tight defensive games are 2009-2015. The team is not growing.

I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that we have a ruckman that very rarely wins a tap that goes directly to a midfielder for a clean takeaway.
The tap that Keeler did that went straight to a player today is just something that Roma doesn't do.
It's hard to be proactive at clearance if you don't know where the ball is going. Instead they have to be reactive either to the opposition or to where the ball does go which makes us look a step behind.

 

[Saintbloke]

Not sure the second part of that is true. He had 4 disposals in a quarter and a half and I’m pretty sure they said in commentary that his opponent had had something like 7 disposals in 8 minutes, just prior to him being subbed off.

We were getting slaughtered in the midfield and the game was getting away from us and we obviously believed we needed to make a change in there, so he was the one to go.

Our mids were getting pushed aside, and run off too easily, though this was on all the mids. I think Hugo wore the brunt of Lyon's frustration of seeing his game plan being picked apart yet again, and probably thinking he should have played Jones in the starting team, but it's a bad look to take it out on young players on the bench- he seemed to do this with Collard a couple of weeks back.
We are playing an undisciplined brand of footy right now, and our losses have been pretty much uncompetitive, which is a worrying sign.

 

[BrutThough]

No, you’ve completely misunderstood my post.

I’ll explain my position on it as clearly as I possibly can.

1: I’m referring to those (both on here, and places like Facebook) who are crying out for us to play Boxshall as if he’s LIKELY TO IMMEDIATELY MAKE OUR MIDFIELD BETTER.

This is NOT- I repeat NOT- to those who just want us to play him so that he gets a taste.

2: I’m talking about when we initially gave Owens and Garcia prime midfield roles in their first seasons, and when we gave Pou a prime midfield role in R10 last season, after he’d had tastes in there previously, while playing mainly forward.

If you remember, Owens was played as a pure mid in his very first game, after he likewise showed so much in the leadup that we hoped he might be able to play a key role for us in there.

He then proceeded to have 0 DISPOSALS to half time and 1 to 3/4 time, and as you can probably imagine, we had to yank him the hell out of there, as we might as well have been playing a man down in there. 1 disposal in 3 quarters in the midfield is diabolical. It wasn’t until the following preseason when all our tall forwards went down when we decided he was a forward.

Now to Hugo. He like Hugh was doing terrific things in the VFL and then showed lots when subbed on in his first game (against GWS), so he got to play what looks like full games predominantly in the midfield for his next 2 (attended 13 centre bounces in each) and across the two games, had a TOTAL of 21 disposals, 2 clearances and one goal.

Again, just not AFL standard type operating and he had to come out of there, as you’re going to get smashed if you’ve got someone in there getting so little of it.

As for Pou, I’m referring to the game in R10 against Freo last year when he returned from being dropped for the first time and was handed the keys for a starting midfield role for the first time (after a Boxshall type performance in the VFL the week before, that prompted them to bring him straight back in after one week out) and he proceeded to have TWO DISPOSALS TO 3/4 time, playing in the midfield, until he too had to be yanked, as it was like being one down in there.

So that’s 3 highly promising young mids (at the time at least, in Mitch’s case) very recently who we thought were up to playing senior prime midfield roles, who proved to generally be so far off the pace that two had to be yanked out of there before the end of the first game there- with a diabolical combined 3 disposals to 3/4 time- while the other was removed after a 7 disposal 1 clearance second game.

So that’s why I think those who seem to think Hugh might be an answer to our midfield woes right now might need to just cool their jets and lower their expectations a bit.

He, like the other 3 at the time, looks hugely promising, and I’ll be ecstatic if he goes way better than they did and actually makes us better right off the bat, but I just think the odds of that aren’t great.

If what happened with Mitch, Pou and Hugo is anything to go by.

As such, I would personally not be in any rush to give him a prime midfield role for the time being.

At least not if we want to be able to seriously compete with elite midfields.

I’d personally be far more on board with giving him a taste as a sub.

For mine, there’s nothing wrong with giving these kids time to really find their feet in the VFL, especially if the midfield is the only place they’re really suited to playing. Some act as though you can only develop players at AFL level and I just don’t agree.

Some of the best players when I was growing up had to spend 3 or 4 years in the VFL before they got a look in.

Giving kids a taste in pockets/flanks/wings is one thing, but giving them a prime spot in the vitally important midfield is another altogether, IMO, if you’re still playing to win.

Hopefully that clears that up.

You could also add Trav against Richmond in there as another example of putting a kid in the centre square too early.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Not sure the second part of that is true. He had 4 disposals in a quarter and a half and I’m pretty sure they said in commentary that his opponent had had something like 7 disposals in 8 minutes, just prior to him being subbed off.

We were getting slaughtered in the midfield and the game was getting away from us and we obviously believed we needed to make a change in there, so he was the one to go.

Not sure how his opponent got 7 disposals in 8 minutes when Hugo was playing at HFF for the start of the 2nd qtr.

Didn't attend a centre square bounce, got dragged about 5 min's into the 2nd qtr after he took a mark at hb and kicked long to a contest.

You can clearly see Lyon saying "get him off get him off" and seconds later Jones is running along the boundary.

45 min mark of the replay -

Match Replay: St Kilda v Brisbane

The Saints and Lions clash in round seven of the 2025 Toyota AFL Premiership Season

www.afl.com.au

Have no idea what Lyon had asked him to do at qtr time. Perhaps stay in the fwd half and not present for marks.

 

[wannabewinner]

We are playing an undisciplined brand of footy right now, and our losses have been pretty much uncompetitive, which is a worrying sign.

I think the players are playing to their abilities. The other teams just have better players, eg Bont, Neale, etc.

The uncompetitive game comes partially from not having the flexibility of tall forwards. Here’s a write up of Dogs win vs Giants which was very good (from Herald Sun)

While it was clear Adam Kingsley’s side had an edge with speed, it was precise movements and a slow, kick-mark game that gave them their early advantage. And as soon as the Bulldogs identified that, it was game over.

Although the Giants’ structure can be their biggest strength, because it’s their one wood in attack, it can often be their undoing.

Beveridge made some key tactical changes in the second quarter that stymied the Giants’ momentum. Rory Lobb moved forward and gave them more height ahead of the ball, with an instruction given to kick long to the contest.

That chaos ball proved productive as the Dogs trusted their advantage at the stoppage and kicked three-straight goals to open up a 13-point lead.

Where the Giants looked panicked with Kieren Briggs struggling against Tim English in the ruck, the Dogs could rely on Marcus Bontempelli, Tom Liberatore and Ed Richards to use the ball efficiently. Hogan and Toby Bedford kicked a couple of goals to bring the Giants back level, but a late major to English gave the visitors a deserved half-time lead after their strong contest work.

once they had the momentum, and the blueprint to unlock the Giants, the Dogs turned it on in the third quarter. They kicked five unanswered goals, had 25 points from turnovers in the third term alone and opened up a 37-point lead by the last break.

Even though Bontempelli and co. were completely dominant around the contest, it was the same issues that had plagued the Giants all season. The quarterbacks weren’t given any space to work, their uncontested marks dried up, and they looked devoid of ideas on the rare occasion it got forward.

Having quality talls and smalls gives you options. Having top tier mids like Bont give you the luxury to try something and scope for it to fail.

At the way the comp is, I am delaying my competitive final expectations to 2040s and I am being cautiously optimistic at that.

 

[cooperrules]

Time to actually mix things up

Out: Wood (conc), Collard (managed), Byrnes, Jones, Keeler
In: Boxshall, Boyd, Hastie, Pou, O'Connell

B: Webster, Howard, Wilkie
HB: Sinclair, Caminiti, Hastie
C: Hill, McQuay, Windhager
HF: Hall, Sharman, Pou
F: Higgins, Marshall, Wilson

Foll: Boyd, Nas, Owens
Int: Boxshall, Steele, O'Connell, Stocker
Sub: Garcia

Owens, Pou and Steele to all rotate between mid/forward. Give Nas 50% of the game in the middle. Boyd would be more competitive than Marshall in the middle right now and Marshall would be more competitive forward than Keeler. Keep Caminiti back and let Wilkie play an intercept role on the third forward. Have O'Connell spend some time on a wing in the Wood role. Wilson to play as a pressure forward to get some discipline and physicality back.

Steele will be rotating at vermont

 

[beside the seaside]

I hope Ross knows what he's doing with Garcia. Supposedly, Ross is very good at knowing what kind of coaching each individual player needs - I hope that's true of Garcia. Because, from the outside, it seemed like he took his frustrations about the entire team's performance in Q1 and Q2 out on Hugo.

The kid has tremendous potential and an incident like this can ruin his love for the coach/club.

I read online he didn't visit the rooms at half-time. Do we know if that's true? Garcia's one of my favorites - I hate to think he was made the sacrifiical lamb for the whole team's poor performance.

Its the AFL competition, elite sport, if he can't take harsh feedback then he's in the wrong profession. Hopefully it's the making of him.

 

[beside the seaside]

Worrying thing is the existing board seems clueless. The current football admin are clinging to the rebuilding developing side angle. 4 years in!!!

How are we four years into a rebuild? We basically started rebuilding once Ross came back and there was still a year until his first trade and free agency period so you could make the argument we are two years into a rebuild.

Losing sucks I think we all know that but Brisbane are the best team in the comp. We've had some good wins this year too although that seems to have been forgotten.

We can't just snap our fingers and suddenly every kid we have is good. Players like Nick Daicos are an exception not a rule, most kids take years to reach their potential and right now the reality is we're stuck waiting for kids praying that they come good, unlike the previous lot.

At this stage going into the season most would have had us 1-6 so we are actually ahead of where most pundits had us.

We are going to see lots more kids this year and as a result there'll be a lot more losses, we need to strap in unfortunately and take our medicine but hopefully there's the makings of a quality side at the other end of it all in a yesr or two.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Its the AFL competition, elite sport, if he can't take harsh feedback then he's in the wrong profession. Hopefully it's the making of him.

Here's some feedback for Ross then.

How the hell do you keep on selecting someone who in three of the 4 games he's played he's got one possession to half time. What sort of message does that send to other players???

Lyon tactically subbed 19-year-old midfielder Hugo Garcia out of the game halfway through the second term in a statement wake-up call to the rest of his troops.

The 16-gamer had managed four disposals and one tackle in 36 per cent game time.

“Hugo was a part of it (getting out-muscled in the middle). I don’t know. How much do you guys know about stay-ahead mids and swivelling and turning? Sometimes I just get to roll-the-eyes stage,” Lyon said post-game of his call to pull Garcia.

“Sometimes you’ve got to stop talking about it and sometimes you just go ‘bang’.”

‘What’d you think?’: Classic testy Ross presser as risky ‘roll-the-eyes’ sub moment explained

‘What’d you think?’: Classic testy Ross presser as risky ‘roll-the-eyes’ sub moment explained

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[AirWinmar]

I wouldnt be surprised if Brisbane players were instructed to kick the ball to whoever Hill was on when entering 50 because that seemed to happen a fair bit.

Whenever I see Hill catchup on a taller winger I get worried. He is bad in the air so oppo isolate him and have an easy marking target

 

[BrutThough]

Here's some feedback for Ross then.

How the hell do you keep on selecting someone who in three of the 4 games he's played he's got one possession to half time. What sort of message does that send to other players???

You mean Keeler?

 

[Linton Street Saint]

Hugo's played 8 non sub-affected career games and was playing against arguably the best midfield in the AFL.

Angry Ross isn't sending a message to the playing group by subbing a kid off after a quarter and a half.

We aren't a top side, we need to rebuild. Today could've been a great learning experience for Hugo to work into a game.

Instead, a kid was made an example of and then we got an injury a quarter later which left us a man down...

Imagine making a statement with a 19 yo with ~15 games under his belt and letting Steele get away with the last 2 years.

I am a big fan of the Boss but I think he made a big mistake with this one.

That said I have strong faith in Garcia's character and I do think it will have a positive effect in the long run. I get the feeling he just has that unwavering determination to prove everyone wrong.

 

[True Believer]

Some of the umpiring was perplexing. So many frees in front of goal.

Corrupt.

The word you are looking for is corrupt.

 

[AirWinmar]

Stkilda has had a play style issue for a couple of years now. It is the same issue you see with a lot of the bottom half teams. That is they chase the ball. They all play close to the ball and I think it is a result of not having confidence in each other. It results in a “playing in a telephone booth” style.

If you look at teams like Pies and Lions and Adelaide, they create space. One maybe two go to the contest, the rest run to create space and options.

Saints occasionally play that game. They get their tail up snd go for it. But more usually they play a bottom 8 style game. This game was one of those.

Personally, I think the Saints just have to focus on playing a modern game. Tight defensive games are 2009-2015. The team is not growing.

We are playing panic football. Maybe it's from weeks of playing very strong opponents that we have gone into panic mindset in games? Even Sinclair didn't look composed yesterday and we can't change our tempo. I'll take a loss to a good team, but it's more about how we look. We have no flow atm

 

[beside the seaside]

Imagine making a statement with a 19 yo with ~15 games under his belt and letting Steele get away with the last 2 years.

I am a big fan of the Boss but I think he made a big mistake with this one.

That said I have strong faith in Garcia's character and I do think it will have a positive effect in the long run. I get the feeling he just has that unwavering determination to prove everyone wrong.

He wasn't making a statement, he was making a move to improve the teams performance which it actually did.

 

[True Believer]

So sitting in Changi Airport waiting for a connecting flight. I take it I didn't miss much.

I remember transiting through Changi just as COVID was starting to hit, and the airport was almost empty. That was more fun than Marvel today.........

 

[Linton Street Saint]

He wasn't making a statement, he was making a move to improve the teams performance which it actually did.

Trollop, they aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[AirWinmar]

Not sure how his opponent got 7 disposals in 8 minutes when Hugo was playing at HFF for the start of the 2nd qtr.

Didn't attend a centre square bounce, got dragged about 5 min's into the 2nd qtr after he took a mark at hb and kicked long to a contest.

You can clearly see Lyon saying "get him off get him off" and seconds later Jones is running along the boundary.

45 min mark of the replay -

Match Replay: St Kilda v Brisbane

The Saints and Lions clash in round seven of the 2025 Toyota AFL Premiership Season

www.afl.com.au

Have no idea what Lyon had asked him to do at qtr time. Perhaps stay in the fwd half and not present for marks.

It's probably exactly what he told him and RTB probably sees it like he is chasing kicks in the backline. All the same I think Garcia did wear the brunt of his frustration. Surely that could be just a drag to the bench and give him a spray if it's the case. In hindsight obviously it would have been better to not sub him off so we have full rotations once Wood got injured

 

[Saintbloke]

It's probably exactly what he told him and RTB probably sees it like he is chasing kicks in the backline. All the same I think Garcia did wear the brunt of his frustration. Surely that could be just a drag to the bench and give him a spray if it's the case. In hindsight obviously it would have been better to not sub him off so we have full rotations once Wood got injured

Dragging Hugo didn't change anything anyway- it was a dumb move, as the team still played poorly before and after. Jones picked up useful possessions, but nobody stamped themselves on the game for the Saints. When asked about Steele's game at the presser, Lyon didn't sound enthusiastic, just thought he did better. Got a few problems down there for the boys to sort out.