Autopsy Round 15, 2023: St.Kilda v Brisbane *SPUD'S GAME* *CROUCH 150TH* *MARSHALL 100TH*

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

I dont think i could have made it any clearer that im not potting him. Stop reading the headline and try the content.

* even in the post youve quoted ive made the point that modern coaching is not about game day changes.

the mod off's back on!!!

 

[phantom13]

I think he is one of the best game day coaches I've seen. I've come up with many more instances than just Gilbert 09 (who coincidentally had never seen a live game of AFL football before he was drafted)

Any coach who has taken cellar dwellers like us and Freo to the big stage, is more than a coach great at preparation.

Care to share them? Ive only asked like 12 times.

 

[MordySaint]

Care to share them? Ive only asked like 12 times.

Go look at games we were behind at 1/2 time and came back to win or games where we have held on for famous wins.

For example - 2009 First preliminary final (St Kilda vs. Western Bulldogs) - down at quarter time, down at half time, Bulldogs all the running the in final quarter ... but we won.

I'm not privvy to the internal discussions at half or quarter times but I can tell you that his coaching and inspiration won us the game that day.

if you want to look at our coaches who weren't that great at preparation or even game day... then take an analysis of Richo or Ratten for example. The scream of Carlisle forward was one of the only gameday movements we every saw.

 

[phantom13]

Go look at games we were behind at 1/2 time and came back to win or games where we have held on for famous wins.

For example - 2009 First preliminary final (St Kilda vs. Western Bulldogs) - down at quarter time, down at half time, Bulldogs all the running the in final quarter ... but we won.

I'm not privvy to the internal discussions at half or quarter times but I can tell you that his coaching and inspiration won us the game that day.

if you want to look at our coaches who weren't that great at preparation or even game day... then take an analysis of Richo or Ratten for example. The scream of Carlisle forward was one of the only gameday movements we every saw.

Theyre not specific examples though are they? You could just as easily say he did nothing in those games and it was superior fitness and the planned gamestyle and plan prevailing. The Gilbert one is a specific and clear example.

I think you have to remove the emotion from this. Ross is an excellent coach, im not saying otherwise.

I have asked a question about whether hes an "elite" or "excellent" gameday coach, i havent said hes not. Ive also noted that i actually dont think modern coaches do much gameday action at all (and cited a specific example of a coach doing absolutely ****ing nothing in a grand final no less).

 

[Sully111]

Care to share them? Ive only asked like 12 times.

I don't remember specifics of games from pre 2012. Too much weed and acid in my 20s.

But I do know often things wouldn't be going well and Ross would get them at half time and the game would turn around. I came to trust him in that regard.

 

[Sully111]

Theyre not specific examples though are they?

You're stuck on this

 

[MordySaint]

Theyre not specific examples though are they? You could just as easily say he did nothing in those games and it was superior fitness and the planned gamestyle and plan prevailing. The Gilbert one is a specific and clear example.

I think you have to remove the emotion from this. Ross is an excellent coach, im not saying otherwise.

I have asked a question about whether hes an "elite" or "excellent" gameday coach, i havent said hes not. Ive also noted that i actually dont think modern coaches do much gameday action at all (and cited a specific example of a coach doing absolutely ******* nothing in a grand final no less).

Kosi into ruck after half time - monstered Darren Jolly in 2010 GF

Maybe if Stan Alves had of put Stewart Loewe into the ruck in 97 we would have won that one too.

 

[phantom13]

You're stuck on this

It seems a simple request. If youre adamant hes a brilliant match day coach then surely you can give some specifics on why.

If i ask a question and you answer, vehemently in the affirmative, then is it not on you to provide some evidence of it.

Take your response.

I don't remember specifics of games from pre 2012. Too much weed and acid in my 20s.

But I do know often things wouldn't be going well and Ross would get them at half time and the game would turn around. I came to trust him in that regard.

Totally valid, youre not really stating as fact that hes undeniably a brilliant match day coach, you just have a gut feeling he is. Much like i have a gut feeling coaches do very little on game day, cant really prove it, but thats the opinion.

Kosi into ruck after half time - monstered Darren Jolly in 2010 GF

Maybe if Stan Alves had of put Stewart Loewe into the ruck in 97 we would have won that one too.

Fair enough. Im not really sold that "often second ruckman plays slightly more ruck" is a coaching masterstroke but well pay it. Weve got 2 examples.

 

[MordySaint]

Fair enough. Im not really sold that "often second ruckman plays slightly more ruck" is a coaching masterstroke but well pay it. Weve got 2 examples.

A great game day coach is also a coach who gets the best out of players on game day and actually gets the players to follow instructions.

I think you are hung up on looking for strange player movements where a player is moved from full back to full forward and kicks 10 to win the game by 2 points.

I'd trust RTB to be my game day coach over anyone else in the AFL.

 

[phantom13]

A great game day coach is also a coach who gets the best out of players on game day and actually gets the players to follow instructions.

I think you are hung up on looking for strange player movements where a player is moved from full back to full forward and kicks 10 to win the game by 2 points.

I'd trust RTB to be my game day coach over anyone else in the AFL.

FFS, im not hung up on anything, i asked a question and had a few telling me i was wrong, in spite of their opinion being completely a feeling.

Im also not hung up on him NOT being a good gameday coach, he very well could be, theres just not a stack of evidence to prove it.

I think what youre talking about in the first para is kind of the bare minimum to be honest. Coaches who cant do that anymore are pretty much always sacked. "lost the players". Being able to do that doesnt make you good, it makes you standard.

 

[phantom13]

And it doesnt have to be a positional change, for example, our much maligned loss to Port in Carins last year.

Hinkley (or Carr) moved a player from a kick off the ball to a scrappy handball off the ball. In the wet the ball generally eeked out of a pack and that loose player absolutely carved us up (it was usually Amon or Burton). Thats a tactical change due to conditions not a FB to FF.

Ross is almost renowned for being pretty stubborn and process driven, which really doesnt lend itself to making changes in game.

I THINK hes probably a perfectly adequate gameday coach who doesnt do a whole lot, doesnt make him bad but i think its hard to justify that that makes him good either.

 

[MordySaint]

And it doesnt have to be a positional change, for example, our much maligned loss to Port in Carins last year.

Hinkley (or Carr) moved a player from a kick off the ball to a scrappy handball off the ball. In the wet the ball generally eeked out of a pack and that loose player absolutely carved us up (it was usually Amon or Burton). Thats a tactical change due to conditions not a FB to FF.

Ross is almost renowned for being pretty stubborn and process driven, which really doesnt lend itself to making changes in game.

I THINK hes probably a perfectly adequate gameday coach who doesnt do a whole lot, doesnt make him bad but i think its hard to justify that that makes him good either.

Too many people have short memories and can only remember what happened last game. If we had of won last week, then the posters would be rambling on about how he is the greatest coach of all time.

I've seen so many adjustments made at half or quarter time, that it really ridiculous what you are saying.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

 

[phantom13]

Too many people have short memories and can only remember what happened last game. If we had of won last week, then the posters would be rambling on about how he is the greatest coach of all time.

I've seen so many adjustments made at half or quarter time, that it really ridiculous what you are saying.

So many that theres just too many to even name it would seem.

Also AGAIN, not saying, ASKING. Im asking a question. I THINK hes probably just an every day standard match day coach who is fantastic at prep and implementation. That is based on a gut feel and a lack of evidence to the contrary. If someone had some tangible evidence other than "ive seen it heaps but cant articulate it" then im completely open to having my mind changed.

 

[Sully111]

It seems a simple request. If youre adamant hes a brilliant match day coach then surely you can give some specifics on why.

Specifics?

Ok phantom

Here goes

It was a frosty July Saturday morning In 2008. There was a good feeling in the air as despite the cold, the sun was shining.

At about 8.22.am a hopeful Lenny Hayes made his way outside in his stripey blue flannelette pyjamas to fetch his morning paper. Much to his dismay, he noticed the reckless paperboy (his name was bill… in case that’s important) had once again thrown his paper into the neighbour’s yard, taking out some of Betty Duffy’s prized roses. Those roses were her therapy after her scoundrel husband Terry had up and left her for her hot, spritely, 62 year old cousin, Thelma.

Meanwhile across town Nick Riewoldt was warming up by running round and round his hills hoist.

The bus trip to Geelong would have been uneventful, had it not been for the fact that Steven Milne was quite drunk and was on a relentless quest to figure out the meaning of the lyrics to Hotel California.

At the first bounce things went as expected. Geelong got the ball and scored. The second bounce was the same. A stubble headed Ablett was on fire.

This went on for the whole first half, and much of the third quarter when suddenly Ross Lyon had a glint in his eye (left eye, in case that’s important)…. You know… the kind of glint you’d see in your Mum’s eye when she watched your Dad take his first bite of the fresh apple pie she’d just baked him. The kind of glint you’d see in your bosses eye when you sat opposite him in your morning meeting taken aback at how chipper he seemed without realising his secretary was under his desk.

For Ross had noticed something. Every time the stubble headed Ablett ran to sam Gilbert, he dodged left, while Gilbert went the other way. He quickly got Sam to the bench and screamed “I told you at half time he’s dodging left!” To which sam replied “I know!… so I’m moving left to stop him” “But you have to go right if you’re facing him and he’s going left Sam… that’s just how this sh*t works” exclaimed Ross

That… changed… everything!

Stubble headed Ablett came to Gilbert and was stopped. From that point on the game wasn’t the same. Saints had been trailing by 1127 points but ran out eventual winners by 2348 points.

Ross Lyon was acknowledged as a match day genius

But there’s more to this story….

Larry Mcklusky had had a big bet for the Saints to win by 1000 or more. He’d put his whole life savings on it. You see, Larry had done alright working in the mines. His 6th grade teacher Mrs Johnson had higher hopes for Larry, but he got in with the wrong crowd (Johnno and Mack… in case that’s important). At half time Larry thought he had no chance of winning so he went and got himself eaten by a really big shark…. on purpose.

Years later a cleaning lady (sally) was at the Mcklusky residence and came upon Larry’s betting stub. Being a complete tightarse, obsessed with money, she cashed it in and to her delight, was now 8 million dollars richer. She started a few businesses… online knitting… a terrorist training camp in Canada… but nothing seemed to really take off, so she just stayed home and got really fat eating cheesecake. (Blueberry, in case that’s important)

 

[MordySaint]

So many that theres just too many to even name it would seem.

Also AGAIN, not saying, ASKING. Im asking a question. I THINK hes probably just an every day standard match day coach who is fantastic at prep and implementation. That is based on a gut feel and a lack of evidence to the contrary. If someone had some tangible evidence other than "ive seen it heaps but cant articulate it" then im completely open to having my mind changed.

Probably only the players themselves can answer this question and nearly every player who has played under him rate him as their best ever coach.

Onwards and upwards, hopefully another win next week.

 

[phantom13]

Just to capstone this because i dont think ive ever been more misunderstood on a throwaway comment in my 15 years on this site.

I asked a question about whether Ross is a good match day coach. I didnt say he wasnt one, my completely opinion based position is that hes probably just average (not bad, just average) on match day. My "evidence" to support this very softly held position is that i cant think of Ross doing much in game to change it in his time as a coach. Now bearing in mind, its a soft, non factual opinion was met with a few responses like this.

I've seen so many adjustments made at half or quarter time, that it really ridiculous what you are saying.

Which is really the anti thesis of my "im not sure hes a great match day coach, but im not really sure im right" (which i also noted is a modern coaching trend to NOT do much on gameday). Thus i asked if there were any specific examples, to date theres been 2 (one of which was pretty spurious but well pay it).

Absolutely no one is obligated to provide me with examples and no one is required to "change my mind" but to me, if youre going to say that a suggestion is "ridiculous" then you must surely have something that can retort it.

This is right up there with the dumbest and most pointless ongoing discussions had on this forum. Bunch of people frothing Ross because someone dared to ask if match day coaching is even a thing anymore.

 

[George]

Specifics?

Ok phantom

Here goes

It was a frosty July Saturday morning In 2008. There was a good feeling in the air as despite the cold, the sun was shining.

At about 8.22.am a hopeful Lenny Hayes made his way outside in his stripey blue flannelette pyjamas to fetch his morning paper. Much to his dismay, he noticed the reckless paperboy (his name was bill… in case that’s important) had once again thrown his paper into the neighbour’s yard, taking out some of Betty Duffy’s prized roses. Those roses were her therapy after her scoundrel husband Terry had up and left her for her hot, spritely, 62 year old cousin, Thelma.

Meanwhile across town Nick Riewoldt was warming up by running round and round his hills hoist.

The bus trip to Geelong would have been uneventful, had it not been for the fact that Steven Milne was quite drunk and was on a relentless quest to figure out the meaning of the lyrics to Hotel California.

At the first bounce things went as expected. Geelong got the ball and scored. The second bounce was the same. A stubble headed Ablett was on fire.

This went on for the whole first half, and much of the third quarter when suddenly Ross Lyon had a glint in his eye (left eye, in case that’s important)…. You know… the kind of glint you’d see in your Mum’s eye when she watched your Dad take his first bite of the fresh apple pie she’d just baked him. The kind of glint you’d see in your bosses eye when you sat opposite him in your morning meeting taken aback at how chipper he seemed without realising his secretary was under his desk.

For Ross had noticed something. Every time the stubble headed Ablett ran to sam Gilbert, he dodged left, while Gilbert went the other way. He quickly got Sam to the bench and screamed “I told you at half time he’s dodging left!” To which sam replied “I know!… so I’m moving left to stop him” “But you have to go right if you’re facing him and he’s going left Sam… that’s just how this sh*t works” exclaimed Ross

That… changed… everything!

Stubble headed Ablett came to Gilbert and was stopped. From that point on the game wasn’t the same. Saints had be trailing by 1127 points but ran out eventual winners by 2348 points.

Ross Lyon was acknowledged as a match day genius

But there’s more to this story….

Larry Mcklusky had had a big bet for the Saints to win by 1000 or more. He’d put his whole life savings on it. You see, Larry had done alright working in the mines. His 6th grade teacher Mrs Johnson had higher hopes for Larry, but he got in with the wrong crowd (Johnno and Mack… in case that’s important). At half time Larry thought he had no chance of winning so he went and got himself eaten by a really big shark…. on purpose.

Years later a cleaning lady (sally) was at the Mcklusky residence and came upon Larry’s betting stub. Being a complete tightarse, obsessed with money, she cashed it in and to her delight, was now 8 million dollars richer. She started a few businesses… online knitting… a terrorist training camp in Canada… but nothing seemed to really take off, so she just stayed home and got really fat eating cheesecake. (Blueberry, in case that’s important)

But did Sally drive a mustang?

If you can't answer then this example is discredited and I'm going to need more evidence.

 

[Sully111]

But did Sally drive a mustang?

If you can't answer then this example is discredited and I'm going to need more evidence.

Sally drove a 1972 Cortina

It was a gift from her brother, Todd. Todd's wife, Anne wasn't happy about it, and even implied incest at a family BBQ after she had downed too many glasses of whiskey port that she thought tasted sweet ... kind of like a lolly.

Anne was nice to sally after the 8 mil came into play but sally was having none of it. She didn't care if it tasted like a lolly... that was no excuse to make such heinous accusations about her brother, regardless of the fact he had a firm butt and was a great kisser.

 

[NoisyMinor]

You even got the mod-off everyone was after.

 

[Jesuswasacarpenter]

I don't remember specifics of games from pre 2012. Too much weed and acid in my 20s.

But I do know often things wouldn't be going well and Ross would get them at half time and the game would turn around. I came to trust him in that regard.

Weed and acid hmmm....I have lots of those 20's memories

 

[MOLTEN GANGLANDS]

the lyon half time turn around was a staple in the late oughts, cbfd finding specific examples. Maybe we just pulled our finger out after he got uppity idk but it was a thing

 

[MordySaint]

Look at what Brisbane did to Richmond last night.

They are a lot better than we are giving them credit for. This was never going to be an easy win.

Put this one to bed and get on with next week.