Public vs Private School funding

[Proper Gander]

We don't put more money per student into private, that's just flat out wrong.

My tax pays for public and private schools. My two girls to a private school, my wife and I pay for that out of our after tax incomes.

If my girls weren't in a private school, we wouldn't be putting that saved money into the public system, we'd be using it elsewhere.

No problems with your choices, to each their own, but the point being made is more that if the private schools were made to operate as other private businesses do, unsubsidised, the taxpayer dollars could go to the public system.

These arguments are circular because the system is trapped in a loop. The government insufficiently funds the public system which is accessible to all and instead funds a purportedly “private” system with everyone’s tax dollars, alongside private fees, and sometimes even substantial private donation and subsidies for religious organisations. Parents with money then claim that they are simply obliged to use the private system because of the educational standards gap brought about by the resourcing gap and it spirals on and on.

I would pull the rug out - put all the public money into a better public system and let the privates sink or swim in accordance with their viability and fiscal management along with every other private entity.

Parental demands for quality education for their children are understandable, but middle class welfare simply increases the gap. The “I work hard so my kids can have better” is all very well but education is for children. None of them get to work to raise their own funds, or choose parents in advance of being born. We pay lip service to concepts of equal opportunity but do nothing whatsoever to reverse the growing tilt in the playing field

 

[Gralin]

We don't put more money per student into private, that's just flat out wrong.

My tax pays for public and private schools. My two girls to a private school, my wife and I pay for that out of our after tax incomes.

If my girls weren't in a private school, we wouldn't be putting that saved money into the public system, we'd be using it elsewhere.

they keep tilting towards doing it directly with tax payer money, in real terms public education is falling further behind private because of how funding is being allocated

private schools that were over funded continue to be, the arguments about overall average cost per student hide these discrepancies, and I think it's not by accident either because it makes a nice simple headline

14k vs 12k see we aren't giving private schools more its not even equal, reality isn't so simple

some private school students are funded less than public students in tax dollars but not all

 

[Upstart Swan]

Parental demands for quality education for their children are understandable, but middle class welfare simply increases the gap. The “I work hard so my kids can have better” is all very well but education is for children. None of them get to work to raise their own funds, or choose parents in advance of being born. We pay lip service to concepts of equal opportunity but do nothing whatsoever to reverse the growing tilt in the playing field

I would have thought that a family earning say $100,000 plus and paying next to nothing in fees for their children's education because they choose to send their kids to a state school is a classic example of middle class welfare!

 

[Carn The Berries]

they keep tilting towards doing it directly with tax payer money, in real terms public education is falling further behind private because of how funding is being allocated

private schools that were over funded continue to be, the arguments about overall average cost per student hide these discrepancies, and I think it's not by accident either because it makes a nice simple headline

14k vs 12k see we aren't giving private schools more its not even equal, reality isn't so simple

some private school students are funded less than public students in tax dollars but not all

Those schools are on a path to be at the SRS funding level. Granted it won't happen until 2029 but the plan is there and schools are adjusting accordingly.

There are also school who are worse of with the DMI calculation measures. Somewhat ironically a lot of those are schools based in lower socio-economic areas.

 

[Proper Gander]

I would have thought that a family earning say $100,000 plus and paying next to nothing in fees for their children's education because they choose to send their kids to a state school is a classic example of middle class welfare!

Except that it isn’t close to an example of middle class welfare. It’s a public investment in a shared system that serves all children and builds a better future for all in the overall elevation of education standards.

 

[Gralin]

Those schools are on a path to be at the SRS funding level. Granted it won't happen until 2029 but the plan is there and schools are adjusting accordingly.

There are also school who are worse of with the DMI calculation measures. Somewhat ironically a lot of those are schools based in lower socio-economic areas.

if covid proved anything its that the states and feds could find the money right now to fully fund the public schools to the required levels but choose not to

 

[Carn The Berries]

if covid proved anything its that the states and feds could find the money right now to fully fund the public schools to the required levels but choose not to

I'm not suggesting otherwise. The point I was making is that there are tangible actions being taken to re-align schools that have been over funded. Your point was that things are continuing to be tilted towards non-government schools, I was showing that this isn't actually the case and it is moving in the other direction.

 

[Carn The Berries]

Except that it isn’t close to an example of middle class welfare. It’s a public investment in a shared system that serves all children and builds a better future for all in the overall elevation of education standards.

Isn't that equally true of non-government schools? They are delivering the same service? Same as private hospitals.

 

[nut]

Isn't that equally true of non-government schools? They are delivering the same service? Same as private hospitals.

But it’s fact that a country like Finland produces better results with less spending (GDP) and no private schools!!! Same with plenty of other countries ….

My argument is countries with private school spend more… are not equitable and the education system as a whole suffers.
That’s clearly the case in Australia where educations standards vary by your postcode!!!

 

[Proper Gander]

Isn't that equally true of non-government schools? They are delivering the same service? Same as private hospitals.

Are they though? Education isn’t a single blanket ‘service’ like getting a guy to clear your gully trap. Education is a range of different things provided at an even bigger range of quality - class size and good educational resources being just a few examples. Ranges of subjects, sports and other opportunities are another. A public system can’t provide the service it might while so much money is directed at entities that are also being funded from other sources. I’m probably a massive pinko lefty socialist or something, but I would like to see the quality of education raised for everyone. I child is a child and shouldn’t be penalised for being from tarneit instead of Toorak

 

[Gralin]

I'm not suggesting otherwise. The point I was making is that there are tangible actions being taken to re-align schools that have been over funded. Your point was that things are continuing to be tilted towards non-government schools, I was showing that this isn't actually the case and it is moving in the other direction.

Where did you show this?
Because every report i have seen on this shows the gap is widening not closing

 

[Sttew]

Are they though? Education isn’t a single blanket ‘service’ like getting a guy to clear your gully trap. Education is a range of different things provided at an even bigger range of quality - class size and good educational resources being just a few examples. Ranges of subjects, sports and other opportunities are another. A public system can’t provide the service it might while so much money is directed at entities that are also being funded from other sources. I’m probably a massive pinko lefty socialist or something, but I would like to see the quality of education raised for everyone. I child is a child and shouldn’t be penalised for being from tarneit instead of Toorak

Probably? LOL

 

[Sttew]

But it’s fact that a country like Finland produces better results with less spending (GDP) and no private schools!!! Same with plenty of other countries ….

My argument is countries with private school spend more… are not equitable and the education system as a whole suffers.
That’s clearly the case in Australia where educations standards vary by your postcode!!!

Here we go with Finland....yawn!!

 

[Proper Gander]

Probably? LOL

Thanks, Sttew. Means a lot

 

[Suspense]

Let me ask you another question. If the choice for you in sending your children to school was a zoned overcrowded school with huge staff turnover, instability, cultural issues, welfare issues and poor academic results -v- a private school that didn't have those problems, and you could afford private school by stretching yourself, what choice would you make? And how would you feel if the government said, Sorry, we're not giving private schools a penny, and this forced you out of the private system?

False premise. The zoned overcrowded public school has many of those issues because they are underfunded and are required to teach the students that private system refuses to educate (be it due to socioeconomic disadvantage or simply welfare/behavioural issues).

The zoned public school would not have those issues if they were appropriately funded and were not the victims of ghettoisation fuelled by the institutional segregation of the current funding model of the public-private system.

 

[Suspense]

If you're talking about the funding that each non-government school receives then there is already a mechanism in place that does precisely that. The Direct Measure of Income.

A mechanism that impacts on the Commonwealth’s contribution to the base amount of funding under the SRS - for which private schools, on average, receive above their entitlement (and well above that of public schools).

Here are the facts:

FACT - Private schools that are currently funded below their minimum SRS are being brought up to their SRS funding by 2023. There is no plan for public schools to be funded at their minimum SRS.

FACT - While the Public system remains funded below its minimum SRS in every state except ACT, Private schools that are currently funded above their minimum SRS will remain overfunded until 2029 (at least).



FACT - The discrepancy in minimum SRS funding means that Private schools are overfunded by approximately $1 billion during the period 2020–23 at the same time that public schools are underfunded by $19 billion.



FACT - While Private schools continue to get more than their fair share of government funding, all jurisdictions (except for ACT) underfund their public schools by more than $1,000 per student by 2022 and 2023. The greatest underfunding is $6,000 per student in Northern Territory (How good is closing the gap?).



FACT - The calculation of the minimum SRS for public schools includes an notional capital depreciation charge which effectively reduces their government cash allocations. This charge is only applied to public schools. No such reduction is applied to the private sector. This results in a further $2bn annual shortfall for public funding.



FACT - As the capital depreciation charge is not applied to the private school systems, it effectively provides private schools approximately $2.7 billion in additional funds from 2020-23. This is the value of additional funds currently being allocated by governments to private schools, and which could otherwise be directed to public schools that are slated to remain below the SRS target level beyond 2023.



FACT - The True SRS Funding Gap to Australian public schools is approximately $6.7 billion every year during the period 2020-23. The cumulative shortfall over the four years 2020-23 amounts to approximately $27 billion.




The Schooling Resource Standard in Australia - Impact on Public Schools - Adam Rorris

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

No problems with your choices, to each their own, but the point being made is more that if the private schools were made to operate as other private businesses do, unsubsidised, the taxpayer dollars could go to the public system.

These arguments are circular because the system is trapped in a loop. The government insufficiently funds the public system which is accessible to all and instead funds a purportedly “private” system with everyone’s tax dollars, alongside private fees, and sometimes even substantial private donation and subsidies for religious organisations. Parents with money then claim that they are simply obliged to use the private system because of the educational standards gap brought about by the resourcing gap and it spirals on and on.

I would pull the rug out - put all the public money into a better public system and let the privates sink or swim in accordance with their viability and fiscal management along with every other private entity.

Parental demands for quality education for their children are understandable, but middle class welfare simply increases the gap. The “I work hard so my kids can have better” is all very well but education is for children. None of them get to work to raise their own funds, or choose parents in advance of being born. We pay lip service to concepts of equal opportunity but do nothing whatsoever to reverse the growing tilt in the playing field

I don't understand the middle income welfare bit. The government spends less on my two girls going to a private school. If I pulled them out and sent them to a public school it would cost the taxpayer more.

Sink or swim like every other private entity? Like mining, agriculture and fisheries receive $7.8b per year in diesel rebates? Childcare? Aged Care? Medicare?Private Health Care? How many incentives are there in the real estate / construction industry to get people to buy or build houses? How much money, state and federal gets pumped into tourism?

How many net taxpayers are there that actually contribute anything to the education system, childcare and medicare, that don't receive every single cent and more back?

I've got no dramas paying tax, happy to do it, we need it.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

A mechanism that impacts on the Commonwealth’s contribution to the base amount of funding under the SRS - for which private schools, on average, receive above their entitlement (and well above that of public schools).

Here are the facts:

FACT - Private schools that are currently funded below their minimum SRS are being brought up to their SRS funding by 2023. There is no plan for public schools to be funded at their minimum SRS.

FACT - While the Public system remains funded below its minimum SRS in every state except ACT, Private schools that are currently funded above their minimum SRS will remain overfunded until 2029 (at least).

View attachment 1360602

FACT - The discrepancy in minimum SRS funding means that Private schools are overfunded by approximately $1 billion during the period 2020–23 at the same time that public schools are underfunded by $19 billion.

View attachment 1360606

FACT - While Private schools continue to get more than their fair share of government funding, all jurisdictions (except for ACT) underfund their public schools by more than $1,000 per student by 2022 and 2023. The greatest underfunding is $6,000 per student in Northern Territory (How good is closing the gap?).

View attachment 1360614

FACT - The calculation of the minimum SRS for public schools includes an notional capital depreciation charge which effectively reduces their government cash allocations. This charge is only applied to public schools. No such reduction is applied to the private sector. This results in a further $2bn annual shortfall for public funding.

View attachment 1360621

FACT - As the capital depreciation charge is not applied to the private school systems, it effectively provides private schools approximately $2.7 billion in additional funds from 2020-23. This is the value of additional funds currently being allocated by governments to private schools, and which could otherwise be directed to public schools that are slated to remain below the SRS target level beyond 2023.

View attachment 1360623

FACT - The True SRS Funding Gap to Australian public schools is approximately $6.7 billion every year during the period 2020-23. The cumulative shortfall over the four years 2020-23 amounts to approximately $27 billion.

View attachment 1360624


The Schooling Resource Standard in Australia - Impact on Public Schools - Adam Rorris

Where is this information from please?

 

[Ned_Flanders]

I don't understand the middle income welfare bit. The government spends less on my two girls going to a private school. If I pulled them out and sent them to a public school it would cost the taxpayer more.

Sink or swim like every other private entity? Like mining, agriculture and fisheries receive $7.8b per year in diesel rebates? Childcare? Aged Care? Medicare?Private Health Care? How many incentives are there in the real estate / construction industry to get people to buy or build houses? How much money, state and federal gets pumped into tourism?

How many net taxpayers are there that actually contribute anything to the education system, childcare and medicare, that don't receive every single cent and more back?

I've got no dramas paying tax, happy to do it, we need it.

thats wrong

have you guys not heard of marginal cost?

the cost of your kids going public only goes up if significantly if their addition requires new teachers, classrooms, and other infrastructure

but glad you finally admitted your position is based upon your wallet, not whats fair

 

[Evolved1]

I think you'd find the quality of schooling in Frankston high changed markedly around 2000, when a new principal came on board and completely changed the culture and thus the quality of education at the school.

Culture is a result of personnel, and currently the private schools can purchase the best due to their dual funding sources.

What do you mean "purchase the best"?

I'd say its a reflection of the value parents place on education that they're willing to pay for private schooling. Without looking it up, it's reasonable to assume there's a decent correlation between value parents place on education and results of their students in school.

 

[Gethelred]

What do you mean "purchase the best"?

I'd say its a reflection of the value parents place on education that they're willing to pay for private schooling. Without looking it up, it's reasonable to assume there's a decent correlation between value parents place on education and results of their students in school.

Studies I've seen over the course of my masters (of teaching) indicate that the more educated one is themselves the more value they place in education, with the inverse also being true; the less educated one is, the less value they place on education.

But that isn't really the point of government funded education any more than competition is.

 

[Evolved1]

I would have thought that a family earning say $100,000 plus and paying next to nothing in fees for their children's education because they choose to send their kids to a state school is a classic example of middle class welfare!

I find it hard to understand some of the reasoning here.

Double income couple earning $200k+ driving late model cars, have a McMansion and two investment properties:
1) Sends their children to public schools. That's good.
2) Sends their children to private schools, costing the taxpayer less. That's bad.

 

[Evolved1]

Studies I've seen over the course of my masters (of teaching) indicate that the more educated one is themselves the more value they place in education, with the inverse also being true; the less educated one is, the less value they place on education.

But that isn't really the point of government funded education any more than competition is.

Doesn't that prove my point?

The best aren't being bought. Their parents want them surrounded by a peer group that will push their academic progress positively, and sometimes you have to use private schools to find that.

 

[Gethelred]

Doesn't that prove my point?

The best aren't being bought. Their parents want them surrounded by a peer group that will push their academic progress positively, and sometimes you have to use private schools to find that.

The "best being bought" refers to schools with more money being able to offer more money to attract teachers.

 

[Evolved1]

The "best being bought" refers to schools with more money being able to offer more money to attract teachers.

Is there reason to believe private schools have better teachers?