- Oct 13, 2011
- 4,066
- 6,547
- AFL Club
- West Coast
Not sure if anyone else did the stats form the game but this is what I had
Game Day Preseason Scrimmage -West Coast v Fremantle, Sat 24/2 : Let the melts begin
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Finally had some time to re-watch this match without the bevy of distractions that were going on at the time, namely trying to cook on the BBQ whilst watching, a 10-year old trolling "and that's why they're last" throughout proceedings, and a 12-year old who because he is playing in no.9 for his footy team, now feels personally invested in everything H.Reid does...
Re-watching did not improve the performance - however my earlier comments may have been overly harsh.
Fremantle utilised 9 more players, a far greater figure than I was aware of on Saturday, and without question led to the appearance of the team looking fatigued by comparison during the second half.
The Darcy-Jackson ruck partnership is arguably the strongest in the competition and the cross-town rivals were able to field a near-best 22, in comparison to West Coast who had the all-too-familiar situation of half the first team being unavailable.
I'm coming to the opinion that the gameplan is actually very sound - my concern is that we just don't have the cattle to execute it in any purposeful way.
Very front half territory-based with defenders pressing up to the attacking 50.
Coming out of defence, runners on the fat side of the ground push from defence into space ahead of the ball - a somewhat copy of what the current premiers do to move possession rapidly.
Defensively, wide players move into the corridor to stop quick opposition transition through the middle and shift those forays to the flanks - these corridor players also provide a conduit to transfer possession quickly in the result of a turnover.
There are three huge issues in the way of getting this to work however:
We have one midfielder in Kelly. Yeo always seems one contest away from the next injury, Gaff and Sheed are slow and unaccountable, and Duggan remains in defence. The rest are unlikely hopefuls (Petruccelle) or have played less than 20 matches.
Before even taking into account the ruck, the above is a team that will not be stoppage dominant at all this year, or indeed for many seasons to come. The ruck however, is dire, with B.Williams now once again the first option despite his complete lack of defensive positional sense around stoppages.
With so many players taking risks off the ball and running forward as attacking options, it is incredulous that team-mates still take possession, pause, look outside, then look inside only to realise the opportunity has been lost and the team's defence will be completely exposed if a turnover comes, so proceed to chip possession slowly and safely - without gaining any territory or posing any risk to the opposing defence. The decision to hit the outlet running in space on the fat side should be made before possession is even taken. It is the same usual suspects that delay and stymie the offence from executing as it should. They need to be put out to pasture - but there is no depth of options to replace them, so they remain playing a gear behind the rest of the team.
As I've discussed at length in the past, the best way to break through an opposition zone (particularly one higher up the ground), is through rapid handball chains. Outside of the issues around stoppage, the biggest reason why West Coast cannot post competitive scores is that it lacks midfield pace and has the worst handballing skills in the competition by quite some margin. As a result attacking opportunities go unrealised, with possession being forced to the wings, or worse in turnover for a simple opposition counter.
As you can see, the issues above are not going to be addressed until players are replaced and younger ones develop.
Which really leaves any discussion on gameplan redundant, as regardless of how things are structured, the quality of this team will remain fundamentally lacking.
As for H.Reid, here's my own two cents:
His combination of, pace, carry and disposal offers something that the club has very little of coming out of the defensive half - plus the ball is likely going to be in defence a lot, so it should get him near to the action as well without getting beaten into a pulp like if he were at stoppages all the time.
It did seem like Fremantle made a point of putting extra work into him when he did go into the midfield, but as pick 1 with the amount of hype that has been made, he will need to quickly get used to being a target.
My only concern with his current role is that I hope it does not curb his natural attacking instincts and ability to beat opponents one-on-one. At times he looked completely lost trying to make sure he was zoning the right space and then was out of position to contest the ball as a result. Sometimes I feel it would be better off to put him forward with a free license to roam up to the ball and play naturally.
Re-watching did not improve the performance - however my earlier comments may have been overly harsh.
Fremantle utilised 9 more players, a far greater figure than I was aware of on Saturday, and without question led to the appearance of the team looking fatigued by comparison during the second half.
The Darcy-Jackson ruck partnership is arguably the strongest in the competition and the cross-town rivals were able to field a near-best 22, in comparison to West Coast who had the all-too-familiar situation of half the first team being unavailable.
I'm coming to the opinion that the gameplan is actually very sound - my concern is that we just don't have the cattle to execute it in any purposeful way.
Very front half territory-based with defenders pressing up to the attacking 50.
Coming out of defence, runners on the fat side of the ground push from defence into space ahead of the ball - a somewhat copy of what the current premiers do to move possession rapidly.
Defensively, wide players move into the corridor to stop quick opposition transition through the middle and shift those forays to the flanks - these corridor players also provide a conduit to transfer possession quickly in the result of a turnover.
There are three huge issues in the way of getting this to work however:
- such a gameplan can only work if you are stoppage dominant
- offence is contingent on speed of decision and disposal
- ability to spread and break lines is dependent on footspeed and forward handball skills
We have one midfielder in Kelly. Yeo always seems one contest away from the next injury, Gaff and Sheed are slow and unaccountable, and Duggan remains in defence. The rest are unlikely hopefuls (Petruccelle) or have played less than 20 matches.
Before even taking into account the ruck, the above is a team that will not be stoppage dominant at all this year, or indeed for many seasons to come. The ruck however, is dire, with B.Williams now once again the first option despite his complete lack of defensive positional sense around stoppages.
With so many players taking risks off the ball and running forward as attacking options, it is incredulous that team-mates still take possession, pause, look outside, then look inside only to realise the opportunity has been lost and the team's defence will be completely exposed if a turnover comes, so proceed to chip possession slowly and safely - without gaining any territory or posing any risk to the opposing defence. The decision to hit the outlet running in space on the fat side should be made before possession is even taken. It is the same usual suspects that delay and stymie the offence from executing as it should. They need to be put out to pasture - but there is no depth of options to replace them, so they remain playing a gear behind the rest of the team.
As I've discussed at length in the past, the best way to break through an opposition zone (particularly one higher up the ground), is through rapid handball chains. Outside of the issues around stoppage, the biggest reason why West Coast cannot post competitive scores is that it lacks midfield pace and has the worst handballing skills in the competition by quite some margin. As a result attacking opportunities go unrealised, with possession being forced to the wings, or worse in turnover for a simple opposition counter.
As you can see, the issues above are not going to be addressed until players are replaced and younger ones develop.
Which really leaves any discussion on gameplan redundant, as regardless of how things are structured, the quality of this team will remain fundamentally lacking.
As for H.Reid, here's my own two cents:
His combination of, pace, carry and disposal offers something that the club has very little of coming out of the defensive half - plus the ball is likely going to be in defence a lot, so it should get him near to the action as well without getting beaten into a pulp like if he were at stoppages all the time.
It did seem like Fremantle made a point of putting extra work into him when he did go into the midfield, but as pick 1 with the amount of hype that has been made, he will need to quickly get used to being a target.
My only concern with his current role is that I hope it does not curb his natural attacking instincts and ability to beat opponents one-on-one. At times he looked completely lost trying to make sure he was zoning the right space and then was out of position to contest the ball as a result. Sometimes I feel it would be better off to put him forward with a free license to roam up to the ball and play naturally.
PepperTom32
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- Mar 2, 2021
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Great analysis! It’s good having someone being able to articulate what our gameplan is in such detail. CheersFinally had some time to re-watch this match without the bevy of distractions that were going on at the time, namely trying to cook on the BBQ whilst watching, a 10-year old trolling "and that's why they're last" throughout proceedings, and a 12-year old who because he is playing in no.9 for his footy team, now feels personally invested in everything H.Reid does...
Re-watching did not improve the performance - however my earlier comments may have been overly harsh.
Fremantle utilised 9 more players, a far greater figure than I was aware of on Saturday, and without question led to the appearance of the team looking fatigued by comparison during the second half.
The Darcy-Jackson ruck partnership is arguably the strongest in the competition and the cross-town rivals were able to field a near-best 22, in comparison to West Coast who had the all-too-familiar situation of half the first team being unavailable.
I'm coming to the opinion that the gameplan is actually very sound - my concern is that we just don't have the cattle to execute it in any purposeful way.
Very front half territory-based with defenders pressing up to the attacking 50.
Coming out of defence, runners on the fat side of the ground push from defence into space ahead of the ball - a somewhat copy of what the current premiers do to move possession rapidly.
Defensively, wide players move into the corridor to stop quick opposition transition through the middle and shift those forays to the flanks - these corridor players also provide a conduit to transfer possession quickly in the result of a turnover.
There are three huge issues in the way of getting this to work however:
- such a gameplan can only work if you are stoppage dominant
- offence is contingent on speed of decision and disposal
- ability to spread and break lines is dependent on footspeed and forward handball skills
We have one midfielder in Kelly. Yeo always seems one contest away from the next injury, Gaff and Sheed are slow and unaccountable, and Duggan remains in defence. The rest are unlikely hopefuls (Petruccelle) or have played less than 20 matches.
Before even taking into account the ruck, the above is a team that will not be stoppage dominant at all this year, or indeed for many seasons to come. The ruck however, is dire, with B.Williams now once again the first option despite his complete lack of defensive positional sense around stoppages.
With so many players taking risks off the ball and running forward as attacking options, it is incredulous that team-mates still take possession, pause, look outside, then look inside only to realise the opportunity has been lost and the team's defence will be completely exposed if a turnover comes, so proceed to chip possession slowly and safely - without gaining any territory or posing any risk to the opposing defence. The decision to hit the outlet running in space on the fat side should be made before possession is even taken. It is the same usual suspects that delay and stymie the offence from executing as it should. They need to be put out to pasture - but there is no depth of options to replace them, so they remain playing a gear behind the rest of the team.
As I've discussed at length in the past, the best way to break through an opposition zone (particularly one higher up the ground), is through rapid handball chains. Outside of the issues around stoppage, the biggest reason why West Coast cannot post competitive scores is that it lacks midfield pace and has the worst handballing skills in the competition by quite some margin. As a result attacking opportunities go unrealised, with possession being forced to the wings, or worse in turnover for a simple opposition counter.
As you can see, the issues above are not going to be addressed until players are replaced and younger ones develop.
Which really leaves any discussion on gameplan redundant, as regardless of how things are structured, the quality of this team will remain fundamentally lacking.
As for H.Reid, here's my own two cents:
His combination of, pace, carry and disposal offers something that the club has very little of coming out of the defensive half - plus the ball is likely going to be in defence a lot, so it should get him near to the action as well without getting beaten into a pulp like if he were at stoppages all the time.
It did seem like Fremantle made a point of putting extra work into him when he did go into the midfield, but as pick 1 with the amount of hype that has been made, he will need to quickly get used to being a target.
My only concern with his current role is that I hope it does not curb his natural attacking instincts and ability to beat opponents one-on-one. At times he looked completely lost trying to make sure he was zoning the right space and then was out of position to contest the ball as a result. Sometimes I feel it would be better off to put him forward with a free license to roam up to the ball and play naturally.
There are three huge issues in the way of getting this to work however:
- such a gameplan can only work if you are stoppage dominant
- offence is contingent on speed of decision and disposal
- ability to spread and break lines is dependent on footspeed and forward handball skills
Out list is pretty average, and if the players dont have the health nor skill to play to the desired game plan (which they dont)...then why dont the flipping coaches change the gameplan to match the skill level of the current list transition?
Which players do you want to match it to?
The seniors, who likely won't be around for the next flag push, or the new players, who'll take time to learn and adapt?
You understand it takes more than a couple of preseasons, right?
- Mar 11, 2015
- 2,112
- 4,676
- AFL Club
- West Coast
Nah he checks their Synergy levels first up.
Great write up, thanks - I do feel smarter for having read it.Finally had some time to re-watch this match without the bevy of distractions that were going on at the time, namely trying to cook on the BBQ whilst watching, a 10-year old trolling "and that's why they're last" throughout proceedings, and a 12-year old who because he is playing in no.9 for his footy team, now feels personally invested in everything H.Reid does...
Re-watching did not improve the performance - however my earlier comments may have been overly harsh.
Fremantle utilised 9 more players, a far greater figure than I was aware of on Saturday, and without question led to the appearance of the team looking fatigued by comparison during the second half.
The Darcy-Jackson ruck partnership is arguably the strongest in the competition and the cross-town rivals were able to field a near-best 22, in comparison to West Coast who had the all-too-familiar situation of half the first team being unavailable.
I'm coming to the opinion that the gameplan is actually very sound - my concern is that we just don't have the cattle to execute it in any purposeful way.
Very front half territory-based with defenders pressing up to the attacking 50.
Coming out of defence, runners on the fat side of the ground push from defence into space ahead of the ball - a somewhat copy of what the current premiers do to move possession rapidly.
Defensively, wide players move into the corridor to stop quick opposition transition through the middle and shift those forays to the flanks - these corridor players also provide a conduit to transfer possession quickly in the result of a turnover.
There are three huge issues in the way of getting this to work however:
- such a gameplan can only work if you are stoppage dominant
- offence is contingent on speed of decision and disposal
- ability to spread and break lines is dependent on footspeed and forward handball skills
We have one midfielder in Kelly. Yeo always seems one contest away from the next injury, Gaff and Sheed are slow and unaccountable, and Duggan remains in defence. The rest are unlikely hopefuls (Petruccelle) or have played less than 20 matches.
Before even taking into account the ruck, the above is a team that will not be stoppage dominant at all this year, or indeed for many seasons to come. The ruck however, is dire, with B.Williams now once again the first option despite his complete lack of defensive positional sense around stoppages.
With so many players taking risks off the ball and running forward as attacking options, it is incredulous that team-mates still take possession, pause, look outside, then look inside only to realise the opportunity has been lost and the team's defence will be completely exposed if a turnover comes, so proceed to chip possession slowly and safely - without gaining any territory or posing any risk to the opposing defence. The decision to hit the outlet running in space on the fat side should be made before possession is even taken. It is the same usual suspects that delay and stymie the offence from executing as it should. They need to be put out to pasture - but there is no depth of options to replace them, so they remain playing a gear behind the rest of the team.
As I've discussed at length in the past, the best way to break through an opposition zone (particularly one higher up the ground), is through rapid handball chains. Outside of the issues around stoppage, the biggest reason why West Coast cannot post competitive scores is that it lacks midfield pace and has the worst handballing skills in the competition by quite some margin. As a result attacking opportunities go unrealised, with possession being forced to the wings, or worse in turnover for a simple opposition counter.
As you can see, the issues above are not going to be addressed until players are replaced and younger ones develop.
Which really leaves any discussion on gameplan redundant, as regardless of how things are structured, the quality of this team will remain fundamentally lacking.
As for H.Reid, here's my own two cents:
His combination of, pace, carry and disposal offers something that the club has very little of coming out of the defensive half - plus the ball is likely going to be in defence a lot, so it should get him near to the action as well without getting beaten into a pulp like if he were at stoppages all the time.
It did seem like Fremantle made a point of putting extra work into him when he did go into the midfield, but as pick 1 with the amount of hype that has been made, he will need to quickly get used to being a target.
My only concern with his current role is that I hope it does not curb his natural attacking instincts and ability to beat opponents one-on-one. At times he looked completely lost trying to make sure he was zoning the right space and then was out of position to contest the ball as a result. Sometimes I feel it would be better off to put him forward with a free license to roam up to the ball and play naturally.
I don't think we need to be concerned about Harley curbing any natural instincts - he only has one mode and that is "attack".
You're right about our handball skills - it's quite alarming that such a basic skill has been allowed to become such a weakness across the group. We're constantly handballing to the feet of a team-mate and it's frustrating to watch. Reminds me of the Wallabies inability to scrum...
Continues the trend of just not being able to get our hands on the ball enough.
Anyone thinking we are capable of winning 6/7 needs help.
There is a reason gambling is bad for punters, because the agencies inevitably get it right.
Just have a gander at SB's odds on games for WC's winning its first match!
If we win 3, it will be a truly outstanding season by this squad.
And no disrespect to the players is intended, its the club hierarchy that created this shiteshow by over paying players, giving them over long contracts and being unable to make any hard decisions (i.e. like moving on Priddis in 2017).
Drafting Kelly was an easy decision at the time, because it added to what was a great squad in the window.
But since then; its like a paralysis set in and we became the Blackberry of the AFL (no not the fruit).
Its draft, draft, turnover, draft, turnover, draft .... and fun times again by 2028.
Seen as counter productive long term. A bit like flooding numbers back for a whole game just to protect the score line when you don't have the cattle to compete and win. In the long term it takes you nowhere. Better off training and playing the way you want to set up to win in the future.
I gotta say, though, it's brave of Simmo but falls in line with his comments about wanting to set us up for success with or without him. He could have easily abandoned the attacking game style and gone into self preservation mode to try and win another contract for himself. We might get touched up a few times and he could be out of a job in 2024. Or we could surprise a few teams, pinch some wins and he'll be the hero.
RookiePick
Brownlow Medallist
- Aug 13, 2014
- 28,072
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Jesus man. This comment really scares me.
Something we seem to have done repeatedly, to many players over recent years is take their development path away from the attributes that made them draft-worthy in the first place.
Ainsworth is a classic - kid wins the most contested possessions in the 18's cup. We slim him down and try to turn him into some sort of running player when the poor fella can barely get the ball from his hand to boot. A couple of years later and the bloke ends up on the scrap heap because his square peg refused to go in the round hole our coaches determined he should fit.
Yeah let's go back to the slow, maintain possession, chip it sideways game plan, everyone loved that and we won't get flogged by as much.
While buzz words like synergy can be tiresome, the current trend requires all players to be in sync. For someone to play on and move the ball forward requires someone to be leading to space. Players holding the ball up means someone hasn't anticipated and made a lead or the player hasn'tanticipated the lead. It takes level of trust in each other and a willingness to make a mistake and turn over the ball if that synegy isn't there.
And that's what we don't have. Against Free Harley takes the kick in - boldly runs bounces and kicks to our half forward line. The rest of the team is standing still waiting for the 15m chip into the back pocket. We will get there!
- Oct 13, 2011
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- West Coast
It's not often we see a kick-in reach CHF these days. The way teams setup for kick-ins now just doesn't suit it (full forward coming up to the centre). I hope this can start a shift in seeing teams setup like they used to where the forwards actually played in the forward line.
Respect Simmo for developing a modern gameplan that will most likely only see success after he's gone and we have the players capable of executing it.
Prefer that to a boring flooding gameplan that takes us nowhere but might get us a couple of extra wins this year.
Prefer that to a boring flooding gameplan that takes us nowhere but might get us a couple of extra wins this year.
Bender_
X
Then we can hear all about how our new coach only won their flag coz of
- Aug 23, 2022
- 3,387
- 9,290
- AFL Club
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Then we can hear all about how our new coach only won their flag coz of
Fixed.
The good thing with Pyke is he knows what a good game plan is. Hopefully he's bought into the idea of teaching the kids how to play properly, even if it leads to blow out losses.
- Mar 11, 2015
- 2,112
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It’s ok Simmo has moved on, it’s about identity now, Synergy didn’t work.
I noticed this alot on the weekend. We didnt share the ball enough. I noticed it especially with younger blokes like Chesser and Reid, who had made reasonable position but the player with the ball chose to just bang it on the boot as far as possible. I think its really important to share the love abit, especially with the young players. Both to build their confidence and also in Reid's case, he is already one of our best users. Reid should also take a good amount of kick-ins, I was disappointed Hunt took so many over the weekend tbh. Reid can do just as good a job as him, if not better.
Would have taken any semblance of being able to maintain possession in a few games last, particularly that Swans game.
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