List Mgmt. Morning, Joe! (was The Daniher (Probably Mega-)thread)

[LionsMaw]

I guess the Frawley compo has really thrown it out. Melbourne received band one for Frawley who left on a four-year, $550k contract with Hawthorn.

Motlop received band two for joining Port on a four year, $500k contract.

I imagine using those precedents that a five year, $650k contract should net us band one, which we should (god knows with Dodoro) accept.

Good luck with Joe, your mob will have endless highlights with him in your team.

He'd need to actually be playing for any highlights.

 

[Keays2myBeamas]

Daniher is relatively young for a free agent - doesn't that help the formula a tad? Rockliff was 27 and 8 months when he signed with Port. Daniher 26, 7 months.

 

[Gadzorks]

Yep, completely agree. I think if anybody had that sort of disruption, pressure, expectation, drama, and toxicity in their work life, they would struggle to perform at their best and would be keen for a fresh start somewhere else. Getting Joe up here where he can enjoy a stable and supportive environment and just be a normal person outside of it (more camping trips like the one he's on maybe) probably sounds like a dream to him after all he's lived through so far.

It is funny to think back on all the years we thought nobody would move here because our facilities couldn't compete with those of other teams. Ultimately it's all just culture and success that matters.

Somewhere today I either read or heard that Essendon have the best facilities of the league. Facilities are not an indication of success. Running is running no matter where you run, weights are just heavy things to lift and a flat grass area works for skills. Same as you can’t judge the family by the house they live in.

 

[Dizzle]

That reads like a recipe for falling out of love with the game. Surely Essendon can see that he’s been flogged and he’s done. Even if he doesn’t end up with us, he shouldn’t be at Essendon next year. Hope he can get a few good seasons in

Couldn't help his love for the game if two seasons in a row he tells his team he wants out and nominates another club, only to not get there both times!
Like M. Robbo I am seeing the downside of taking him on at all even though the on-field upside is clear. But if club wants, I can learn to love.

 

[X AE A12]

Not enough pie to share, need to make a bigger pie

 

[LionsMaw]

Article on afl.com saying that Jesse Hogan is on the outer at the Dockers, would we be better off going for him instead of Joe?

No. Hogan is a car crash in the same vein as Bennell. There's talent there but there's something just .....not happening

 

[Sproj]

Facilities mean little. The Broncos have the best facilities in the NRL but zero culture, they are a basket case, kind of like Essendon now I suppose.

 

[LionsMaw]

In his autobiography Leigh talks about how a club can probably handle one "problem" player, but it's when you have a couple to feed off each other that you can have issues. His example was Heuskes and his self-destruction when his mate Stefan Carey arrived at the club.

Heuskes was a major problem for another much more serious reason.

 

[theteamtobeat]

No. Hogan is a car crash in the same vein as Bennell. There's talent there but there's something just .....not happening

What are you on about?

Hogan is a good resilient character considering he lost his dad to cancer, had cancer himself, had to deal with injury all his time at Freo until mid point of these season and when he finally gets on the park, Freo trial him down back. Got played out of form with a injury interrupted pre-season, but he still did what the coach asked. I know he had a quarantine breach, but that was after the season ended in a state that has no Covid 19 cases.

Could be a great pick up for a second round pick for a club out there. I feel like he needs a fresh start like Daniher outside the footy fish bowl states.

 

[Mighty Lions]

Somewhere today I either read or heard that Essendon have the best facilities of the league. Facilities are not an indication of success. Running is running no matter where you run, weights are just heavy things to lift and a flat grass area works for skills. Same as you can’t judge the family by the house they live in.

If you look at the success of clubs in any sport, it starts first with a strong & professional administration. Essendon sadly miss good people in their administration hence the reason (in my opinion) why they are performing so bad on the field. You look at our admin guys and they are all A1 at their individual roles.
A good training facility is one of those advantages that definitely helps bring success but if the fish's head is rotting, nothing will get better until that fish is removed.

 

[lions2010]

Daniher is relatively young for a free agent - doesn't that help the formula a tad? Rockliff was 27 and 8 months when he signed with Port. Daniher 26, 7 months.

Also depends where the player was drafted. Daniher was a top 10 selection, and Rockliff was pre season draft. This is a key factor, hence why Essendon would get pick 7.

 

[T Rick]

and

Also depends where the player was drafted. Daniher was a top 10 selection, and Rockliff was pre season draft. This is a key factor, hence why Essendon would get pick 7.

Not sure Draft position is a factor in the AFL's mystery formula?

 

[3KZ is Football]

Here’s the article people have been referencing about facilities, culture and the problem at Essendon. It’s a good read. Fitzroy proved for years that clubs are made of people and the strength of relationships build culture, not sterile state of the art training facilities. The Brisbane Lions know this too and it underpins our success. We are mentioned early in the article as a club who has it right. This is why we are now a ‘destination club’. Chris Fagan is a massive part of this success also, with an honest and almost ‘Anti-Corporate’ Football persona which makes him beloved by Lions supporters, but is also resonating in the broader football community. Fagan standing on the boundary watching games, venting at umpires, riding the bumps, flipping out at the occasional player and fist pumping when we win is an enormously powerful message to players and supporters that like them, he is emotionally invested and in essence, one of us. Contrast that with Worsfold at Essendon or five or six other coaches that spring readily to mind.
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl...eir-move-from-windy-hill-20201008-p563e6.html

 

[dlanod]

Daniher is relatively young for a free agent - doesn't that help the formula a tad? Rockliff was 27 and 8 months when he signed with Port. Daniher 26, 7 months.

Yep. The two components are age and contract. Age seems to have played a substantial factor in the past - Frawley was young for a free agent when he walked for example.

Also depends where the player was drafted. Daniher was a top 10 selection, and Rockliff was pre season draft. This is a key factor, hence why Essendon would get pick 7.

Not sure Draft position is a factor in the AFL's mystery formula?

T Rick is correct, draft position doesn't matter. Just age and contract.

The compensation formula produces a points rating for players based on:

1. The new contract of the free agent;
2. The age of the free agent.

Free Agency - AFL.com.au

Australian Football League. All the latest AFL news, video, results and information

www.afl.com.au

 

[haystark]

Actually feeling quite relieved about Brisbane not giving up draft picks for Daniher. I hope they've told him as well that if Essendon play hard ball we are willing to walk away.

 

[DERRINALPHIL]

A key forward who can also play in the ruck.........definitely worth the risk!

I read on a thread that Daniher hurt himself when playing ruck. Remember Brennan, twice playing ruck, getting injured and missing most of two seasons. IMO this is what stopped him becoming an elite player.

Many here have thought Dan should have been tried as a second ruck this year and I am hopeful that Stef will get back to peak fitness and form and play on well next year.

If Daniher comes, and remember, we don't need him, keep him out of the ruck.

 

[trikster]

Actually feeling quite relieved about Brisbane not giving up draft picks for Daniher. I hope they've told him as well that if Essendon play hard ball we are willing to walk away.

We are after all in control of the situation. We are no longer desperate to land "anyone", currently 1 win away from a GF, if Dodrongo what's to play hero and demand something stupid Noble can just go "ok, never mind" and we move on with our current list and possible other moves. Plus we can use Brown as our plan B in negotiations even if we have zero interest in him and the possibility of him walking to the pre-season draft and Essendon get nothing. All the pressure is on Dodrongo to get something for him especially after refusing a good offer from Sydney last year.

 

[60sbomber]

…... if Dodrongo what's to play hero and demand something stupid...….
.....the possibility of him walking to the pre-season draft and Essendon get nothing. All the pressure is on Dodrongo to get something for him...….

Something better than pick 23 (or whatever end of rd1 becomes) is hardly "something stupid".
Losing him to the preseason draft is an over rated threat. We'd effectively be giving up pick 23 or so. Have a look at what picks in the early 20s have generated over the years. It's not giving up a lot.

Edit - just looked it up. Last 5 pick 23's have been
2019 Dylan Williams (Pt Ad)
2018 Jordon Sweet (WB)
2017 David Mirra (Haw)
2016 Alex Witherden (Bris)
2015 David Cunninham (Carl)

 

[T Rick]

Something better than pick 23 (or whatever end of rd1 becomes) is hardly "something stupid".
Losing him to the preseason draft is an over rated threat. We'd effectively be giving up pick 23 or so. Have a look at what picks in the early 20s have generated over the years. It's not giving up a lot.

Just remind me - how many games has Daniher actually played in the last 3 years - maybe I have missed something?

 

[Nuggo]

Hawthorn got pick 19 for buddy....peanuts

 

[trikster]

Something better than pick 23 (or whatever end of rd1 becomes) is hardly "something stupid".
Losing him to the preseason draft is an over rated threat. We'd effectively be giving up pick 23 or so. Have a look at what picks in the early 20s have generated over the years. It's not giving up a lot.

Edit - just looked it up. Last 5 pick 23's have been
2019 Dylan Williams (Pt Ad)
2018 Jordon Sweet (WB)
2017 David Mirra (Haw)
2016 Alex Witherden (Bris)
2015 David Cunninham (Carl)

where exactly did I mention an end of rd 1 pick? Already jumping at shadows and reading stuff that isn't there? POQ back to your own board champ.

 

[abcde12345]

Something better than pick 23 (or whatever end of rd1 becomes) is hardly "something stupid".
Losing him to the preseason draft is an over rated threat. We'd effectively be giving up pick 23 or so. Have a look at what picks in the early 20s have generated over the years. It's not giving up a lot.

Edit - just looked it up. Last 5 pick 23's have been
2019 Dylan Williams (Pt Ad)
2018 Jordon Sweet (WB)
2017 David Mirra (Haw)
2016 Alex Witherden (Bris)
2015 David Cunninham (Carl)

I mean, pick 23 or later makes up 12 of our best 22 (13 if Birchall retires).

All of our All-Australian team selections since 2015 have been from players drafted later than pick 23:
Zorko (2017) - QLD Zone Selection (traded with 47 for 34 leaving it at pick 54 in points value)
Andrews (2019, 2020) - pick 61
Cameron (2019) - rookie draft pick 7
Neale (2019, 2020) - pick 58

Hell, just look at your own list. 50% of your top 10 best and fairest players, including your top 3 best and fairest players, were all drafted at an early 20s or later pick.

Obviously you find talent less consistently around that mark compared to a top 5-10 pick, but it's just plain wrong to suggest an early 20s pick is worthless. Especially since you could package that up with the compensation you get for Saad (assuming Carlton splits the pick) to move up the order anyway if you were so inclined.

 

[WhiteLionFeva]

Something better than pick 23 (or whatever end of rd1 becomes) is hardly "something stupid".
Losing him to the preseason draft is an over rated threat. We'd effectively be giving up pick 23 or so. Have a look at what picks in the early 20s have generated over the years. It's not giving up a lot.

Edit - just looked it up. Last 5 pick 23's have been
2019 Dylan Williams (Pt Ad)
2018 Jordon Sweet (WB)
2017 David Mirra (Haw)
2016 Alex Witherden (Bris)
2015 David Cunninham (Carl)

Michael Long and Drew Petrie were also taken at pick 23.
But more importantly, citing players selected at a specific pick to support your argument that that pick is not worth much is just silly. Apart from anything else, it ignores the many issues that teams consider when drafting players, including need, and that sometimes recruiters just get it wrong. For a counter position, try these draft 'bargains' for size -
James Hird - 79
Brent Harvey - 47
Simon Black - 31
Dane Swan - 58
David Hille - 40
Ryan Crowley - 55
Paul Puopolo - 66
Sam Mitchell - 36
Tod Goldstein - 37
Andrew Embley - 57
Steve Johnson - 24
Wayne Campbell - 29
Bernie Vince - 32
Max Gawn - 34
Later selections include Leigh Montagna, Cameron Ling .....

 

[60sbomber]

OK, you're a very convincing group.
I now know that
1. Joe is a hack
2. We should count ourselves lucky to be getting pick 23.
3. David Mirra will be all Australian shortly.
4. "Champ" is a term of endearment used to encourage sensible debate.
(No offence to abcde12345, yours was a good reply)

 

[Section 5]

The below extract is from the current "Collective Bargaining Agreement" and is in place until 2022
It replaces the one ending 2016 which people and media appear to keep referring to as it is easily Googled.
However i do not know if the Covid 19 year has changed some of the set policies
The bolded parts and some change of text have been done by me
A possible mega thread so a mega post from me . Jump to page 114 regarding Restricted Free Agents
.............
Page 112
Annexure D – Free Agency Rules
1. Free Agency
1.1 Free Agents
(a) Unless a Player is a Restricted Free Agent, a Player who:
(i) is party to a Contract of Service with a Club that expires on or prior to 31
October in a particular year (relevant year); and
(ii) prior to or upon the expiration of the Contract of Service referred to in Rule
1.1(a)(i), has been on that Club’s Primary and/or Rookie List for eight or
more consecutive AFL Seasons,
(b) will be a Free Agent in the relevant year.
(c) A Player who:
(i) is on the Primary List of a Club; and
(ii) subject to Rule 1.1(e), is removed from the Primary List by that Club on or
before the final list lodgement date in a particular year (relevant year);

(d) will be a Free Agent in the relevant year.
(e) A Player who elects to retire or has lodged a ‘Player Request for Removal from a
List’ form in the form prescribed in Schedule 1 as Form 40 of the AFL Rules, will
not be a Free Agent under Rule 1.1(c) in the relevant year.
(f) A Player who:
(i) is a Rookie Player in a particular year (relevant year); and
(ii) subject to Rule 1.1(h), has not received an offer from his Current Club to
enter into a Contract of Service for a further period of one year,

(g) will be a Free Agent in the relevant year.
(h) A Player who is a second year Rookie Player and receives an offer from his Current
Club to be retained as a third year Rookie Player but does not accept that offer will
be a Free Agent in the relevant year.
(i) By the date nominated by the AFL, each Club must submit a list of Rookies who
did not accept an offer for a Contract of Service for a further term using the form
prescribed in Schedule 1 as Form 40A.

1.2 Restricted Free Agents
(a) Subject to Rule 1.2(b), a Player who:
(i) otherwise meets the criteria under Rule 1.1(a) in a particular year (relevant
year); and

Page 113
(ii) as at the date determined by the AFL under Rule 1.3 (relevant date), is
entitled to Guaranteed Payments for the relevant year that places that
Player:
(A) where a Club has 40 Players on its Primary List as at the relevant
date, within the top 10 ranked Players on the Club’s Primary List; or
(B) where a Club has less than 40 Players on its Primary List as at the
relevant date, within the top 9 ranked Players on the Club’s Primary
List;
(C) in respect of Guaranteed Payments for the relevant year, such
rankings to be determined by the AFL,
will be a Restricted Free Agent in the relevant year.

(b) A Player who meets the criteria under Rule 1.2(a) will not be a Restricted Free
Agent, and will be a Free Agent, in a particular year where both of the following
apply:
(i) his Contract of Service expires on or before 31 October in a particular year
being equal to or greater than his tenth consecutive year as a Player on the
Primary and/or Rookie List of the Player’s Current Club; and
(ii) he has already entered into a new Contract of Service with his Current Club
once following 1 March in his eighth consecutive AFL Season on the Primary
and/or Rookie List of that Club.

1.3 List of Free Agents and Restricted Free Agents
(a) On a date determined by the AFL prior to the commencement of the first round of
Home and Away Matches in each AFL Season the AFL will notify Clubs and the
AFLPA of the list of all Free Agents under Rule 1.1 and Rule 1.2(b) and Restricted
Free Agents for that particular year.
(b) Following publication of the list referred to in Rule 1.3(a), a Player will remain
classified as a Free Agent under Rule 1.1(a) or Rule 1.2(b) or Restricted Free Agent
until the conclusion of the applicable Free Agency Period in that year, unless he
enters into a new Contract of Service with his Current Club.

1.4 Movement of Free Agents
(a) Other than where a Free Agent enters into a Contract of Service following selection
in a Draft or as part of an exchange under the AFL Rules, a Free Agent may only
enter into a Contract of Service for the following AFL Season or an agreement,
arrangement or understanding to enter into a Contract of Service for the following
AFL Season during the applicable Free Agency Period, unless he enters into a new
Contract of Service with his Current Club prior to or during that period.
(b) Where a Club enters into a Contract of Service or an agreement, arrangement or
understanding to enter into a Contract of Service with a Free Agent during the
applicable Free Agency Period the Club must promptly lodge with the AFL a
completed and accurate form in the form prescribed in Schedule 1 as Form 42 of
the AFL Rules.
Page 114
(c) Upon entry into a Contract of Service by a Club and Free Agent, the relevant Club
must lodge documents with the AFL in accordance with the AFL Rules.
(d) A Player may, by Power of Attorney, appoint an attorney to sign a document on his
behalf under this Rule.
(e) Any Contract of Service entered into under Rule 1.4 shall take effect on 1 November
in that year.
(f) For the avoidance of doubt, any Club wishing to enter into a Contract of Service
with a Free Agent after lodgement of Football Payments pursuant to the AFL Rules,
must first seek the approval of the Investigations Manager.

1.5 Movement of Restricted Free Agents
(a) Other than where a Restricted Free Agent enters into a Contract of Service
following selection via the Draft or as part of an exchange under the AFL Rules, a
Restricted Free Agent may only enter into a Contract of Service for the following
AFL Season or an agreement, arrangement or understanding to enter into a
Contract of Service for the following AFL Season:
(i) during the applicable Free Agency Period;
(ii) for a minimum term of two years; and
(iii) subject to the other provisions of this Rule 1.5,
(b) unless he enters into a new Contract of Service with his Current Club.
(c) A Restricted Free Agent who wishes to enter into a Contract of Service with a Club
other than his Current Club (Offering Club), other than via the Draft or as part of
an exchange under the Rules, may only seek to do so during the applicable Free
Agency Period and must first submit to the AFL full details of one proposed contract,
arrangement, agreement or understanding (including details of any Additional
Services agreement payments) in the form prescribed in Schedule 1 as Form 41 of
the AFL Rules, signed by both the relevant Player and the Offering Club (Offer).
The full details of the Offer must be submitted to the AFL within 24 hours of finalising
those details and by no later than the end of the applicable Free Agency Period.
(d) AFL will promptly provide a copy of the Offer to the Restricted Free Agent’s Current
Club.
(e) The Restricted Free Agent’s Current Club has the right to match the proposed
contract, arrangement, agreement or understanding in respect of the Restricted
Free Agent on identical terms to the Offer in relation to each of:
(i) contract length;
(ii) base payments;
(iii) total match payment rates;
(iv) total Additional Services agreement payments; and
(v) total performance incentives based on AFL awards or honours, Club best
and fairest finish and matches played, but excluding Finals.
Page 115
(f) For the avoidance of doubt, incentive payments for team performance are not
required to be matched by the Current Club.
(g) If a Restricted Free Agent’s Current Club wants to match the terms of the Offer
under Rule 1.5(e) it must provide notice to AFL using the form prescribed in
Schedule 1 as Form 41 of the AFL Rules (Matching Offer). The Matching Offer
must be provided to AFL within three days of the Current Club receiving the Offer
from the AFL.
(h) AFL will promptly provide a copy of any Matching Offer to the relevant Restricted
Free Agent.
(i) Where a Restricted Free Agent’s Current Club matches the Offer and the Player
wishes to participate in the AFL Competition in the following year, the Restricted
Free Agent must either:
(i) enter into a Contract of Service in accordance with the Matching Offer with
his Current Club within 7 days of the provision of notice of the Matching Offer
to the restricted Free Agent under Rule 1.5(g); or
(ii) nominate for the Draft (unless the Player is part of an exchange under the
AFL Rules.

(j) A Restricted Free Agent may only undertake the process set out in Rule 1.5(c) once
in total in any year in which he is a Restricted Free Agent.
(k) Where:
(i) a Restricted Free Agent’s Current Club does not match the terms of the Offer
in accordance with the process and within the time period prescribed by Rule
1.5(g), and
(ii) the Restricted Free Agent and his Current Club, have not agreed to enter
into a Contract of Service on different terms to the Offer within three days of
the Current Club receiving the Offer from the AFL,

(l) the relevant Player and the Offering Club must promptly enter into a Contract of
Service in accordance with the terms of the Offer and lodge documents with the
AFL in accordance with the AFL Rules.
(m) Nothing in this Rule 1.5 prevents a Restricted Free Agent’s Current Club making
an offer, or a Restricted Free Agent accepting an offer from his Current Club, in
relation to a Player’s services on different terms to the Offer within three days of the
Current Club receiving the Offer from the AFL.
(n) A Player may, by Power of Attorney, appoint an attorney to sign a document on his
behalf under this Rule.
(o) Any Contract of Service entered into under this Rule 1.5 shall take effect on 1
November in the relevant year.
(p) Where any Club enters into a Contract of Service with a Restricted Free Agent
under Rule 1.5(i) or (i) (and for the avoidance of doubt, not in the case of a Contract
of Service entered into under Rule 1.5(m) the Club may elect to allocate payments
under the Contract of Service (including incentives) and any Additional Services
agreement to the relevant Player evenly over the period of the contract(s) for Total
Page 116
Player Payment purposes, subject to the approval of the General Counsel. The
Club must make any election to allocate payments under this Rule within 7 days of
entry into the Contract of Service and immediately notify the AFL of the election.
Any election by the Club to allocate payments under this Rule does not impact the
time for actual payments to the Player, which must be in accordance with the
contract(s).
1.6 Compensation
(a) Where in a particular year one or more Free Agent(s) under Rule 1.1(a) and Rule
1.2(b) and/or Restricted Free Agent(s) move from a Club’s Playing List (the first
mentioned Club) to the Playing List of one or more other Clubs pursuant to the
operation of Rule 1.4 or 1.5, the first mentioned Club may be entitled to a
compensatory selection(s) in the next occurring National Draft Selection Meeting
as follows:
(i) any compensatory selection(s) shall be allocated in accordance with
guidelines determined by the AFL;
(ii) National Draft Selections will be allocated to one of five places:
(A) First round;
(B) End of First Round;
(C) Second Round;
(D) End of Second Round;
(E) Third Round;
(iii) a National Draft Selection allocated under Rule 1.6(a)(ii)(A), (C) or (E) shall
be taken by the Club immediately after the Club’s selection in that Round
(as determined by the AFL Rules);

(b) For the avoidance of doubt, any entitlement to a compensatory selection:
(i) may be exchanged in accordance with the AFL Rules;
(ii) cannot be utilised pursuant to the Father/Son rule; and
(iii) cannot be utilised pursuant to the Listing of Club Academy Player.

1.7 Rule Compliance Paramount
Any Rules restricting the time for Clubs to enter into contracts, agreements, arrangements
or understandings with a Player who is included on the List of another Club are of
paramount importance. Nothing in this Rule limits the operation of the AFL Rules.
1.8 Effect of Breach of Free Agency Rules
A breach of the Free Agency Rules by a Player shall be dealt with pursuant to the AFL
Rules and not pursuant to the terms of this Agreement.