Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[GreyCrow]

Back on Samuel Otto John "Otto" Buck. I did a lot of digging a while back and debunked the 1946 death date which was actually another Samuel Buck born 6 years later.

Different trees now list different dates that prompt further research. All appear sourced from personal records, or at least nothing available publicly.

This first listing of 1938 gives a death location of Carlton North, which is a strong lead.

View attachment 2167136

The second listing of 1938 gives no location, but a description of "speculative" on the attached profile.

View attachment 2167137

The third listing is 1930, eight years earlier, with no further information.

View attachment 2167138

There does appear to be death listings in both the Victorian and Australian records for our man, but nothing available publicly.

View attachment 2167139

View attachment 2167140

However, a Vic BDM search for deaths around that era doesn't turn up anything for our guy (just the 1946 red herring and another couple Samuel Bucks).

View attachment 2167142

Who wants to try and dig some more around that 1938 date?

The 1938 report could be based around the probate notices for the above Lockwood Bucks - Selina Buck has probate to Alfred and Samuel - both confirmed children of Selina Lockwood Buck - who is the Samuel in 1946

This 1938 death could also arise from a notice about Samuel Buckett - scorer for SACA - who died Jan 1938

Nothing plausible in NSW,QLD or WA BDM sites

 

[GreyCrow]

Jack Atkinson played for Redan http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article279795721
and in 2016 gives an interview about his time - lives in Warragul - no notices seen

Jack Atkinson | redan-fnc

www.redanfnc.com.au

Arthur Fitt was alive in 2021 for the funeral of his wife - no further notices

 

[GreyCrow]

Bill Redmond alive Feb 2024

Blueboy Bill convenes 'Club No.2' catch-up in Bendigo

Carlton's current No.2 Lachie Cowan met Bill Redmond - Carlton's oldest-known surviving player - during the Club's community camp.

www.carltonfc.com.au

 

[Gibbsy]

This one is interesting

OHAGAN Michael Joseph Birth
Mother Mary Ann CREED
Father John
CA RL
1878
1116/1878

OHAGAN MICHAEL 31289/1964 UNKNOWN Mother MARY ANNE PARRAMATTA

There are several Trove articles to a Michael OHagan of Adamstown and Glebe which dont match the dates of Victorian copy

Fascinating indeed. That's two NSW links there (the Find a Grave listing and the NSW BDM listing).

I think a good jump-off point is the death of his sister Mary Terese O'Hagan in 1970. She is also seemingly referred to as Mary Theresa and Mary Teresa in various electoral rolls, probate listing etc.





Mary's four siblings were Peter, Patrick, John and Michael.

All except Michael are buried in Melbourne General Cemetery at the same site.





This suggests that Michael did not die in Victoria, either that or he had a falling out with the family.

But there is at least circumstantial evidence to suggest that he moved to NSW, possibly with his sister, given she was there at least as late as 1949.

It gives me good confidence that the man buried in Moree cemetery is our Michael. The listing was only added in February 2023, hence not overly familiar to us sleuths. Too bad there is no photo to confirm family members.

Ancestry turns up nothing; there aren't very many good listings for the O'Hagan siblings.

As has been mentioned before, we can confidently assume this 1906 electoral roll listing in Nathalia, VIC is our Michael O'Hagan (listed as a chemist, he studied pharmacy at Melbourne Uni). It appears he doesn't seem to have bothered with listing his middle name.



This would also be him then, three years earlier, working as a chemist out of Hesse Street in Queenscliff, VIC (it wouldn't surprise me if it's the same building where the chemist still sits in Hesse Street today).



I'm glad I found that 1903 listing, because it confirms that there are two Michael O'Hagans living in Victoria at the same time, and our man is not the labourer in Port Fairy seen below:



This is especially important as it appears that very same labourer Michael O'Hagan was in New South Wales in the 1940s, at the same time that Mary O'Hagan (sister of our man, chemist Michael O'Hagan) was also living there.



While there are many other listings of Michael J(ames) O'Hagan (carpenter, Footscray) in the decades between, none are our man.

His last confirmed 'appearance' is 1906. It does make the 1960 NSW grave site a bit perplexing, if it is him.

Penny for anyone's thoughts? I've put through a photo request on Find a Grave, let's see what might come back.

 

[GreyCrow]

His last confirmed appearance is 1908 as a witness - which confirms the earlier Nathalia address

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144514326

 

[Gibbsy]

Bit of research into Sam Reid

20

Sam Reid

Age

32

Ht

196cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.3

3star

K

6.3

2star

HB

5.0

4star

M

4.7

4star

T

2.2

4star

G

1.1

4star

D

12.0

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

6.0

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

0.0

1star

G

1.0

4star

D

9.4

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.8

4star

G

0.4

3star

Sam Reid

Samuel Alexander Reid

17 Jun 1872

Carl 1897

⬥ Parents were likely James Reid and Ann Eliza Reid (nee Ralston) ⬥ Probably not the Samuel Reid 50 Samuel Reid Age 35 Ht 188cm Wt 85kg Pos. Def Career Season Last 5 D 12.4 3star K 6.5 3star HB 5.9 4star M 3.1 3star T 3.0 5star MG 176.3 3star No current season stats available D 12.6 4star K 4.0 2star HB 8.6 5star M 3.4 4star T 4.6 5star that died in 1949 and may have lived in Japan (different parents to those listed on Blueseum)

Initially I almost fell for the 1949-death Sam Reid

20

Sam Reid

Age

32

Ht

196cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.3

3star

K

6.3

2star

HB

5.0

4star

M

4.7

4star

T

2.2

4star

G

1.1

4star

D

12.0

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

6.0

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

0.0

1star

G

1.0

4star

D

9.4

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.8

4star

G

0.4

3star

and forgot to take my own advice. It's not him.

Unsurprisingly, the whole family's details are fairly scarce on Ancestry. There are only 3 bare-bones listings of Samuel Alexander Reid in trees; the most fleshed out is below:



With some complementary detiails about his mother's life, also hard to find:



I figured I may as well hunt for mentions of Reid's sisters in death notices.

The 1950 death notice for Emily Harris (nee Reid) turned up mentions of multiple sisters, but not Samuel. Not looking good.



The 1960 death notice for Elizabeth Reid... mentions Samuel! He is listed as deceased, which means he died no later than 20 June 1960. I get this is not of much help as he already would have been 88 years old by then, but it's still nice to get confirmation of his existence at a later date.

 

[Gibbsy]

rbartlett anything more ever found on Arch Robinson?

Arch Robinson

Archibald Robinson

9 Jul 1890

Rich 1911

⬥ Served in AIF in WWI; Army records suggest born in 1888, not 1890 ⬥ Divorced Edith Robinson Whitehead in 1921 ⬥ Was often misnamed as Robertson

 

[Gibbsy]

Found something that caught my eye and wanted some feedback. Now this is all speculation the only connection is the names and dates.

Raymond Paul Ross born May 1900 (relevant) to Mary Alice Ross and Unknown father

Family name ROSS Given names Raymond Paul Father's name Unknown Mother's name Mary Alice (Ross)

Place of birth HOTHAM WEST

There doesnt look to be any relevant marriages of Mary Alice to anybody to investigate.

Excluding Ross and entering Raymond Paul in Deaths only brings up an interesting coincidence.

Family name ELLIOTT Given names Raymond Paul
Father's name ELLIOTT Frederick William Mother's name Alice (Ross)

Place of birth Northcote Place of death Essendon Age 80

----------------------------

There is no corresponding Birth record for Raymond Paul Elliott in Vic BDM yet the above death notice suggests there must be.
There is no corresponding Marriage except for a Min(n)ie Ross to Fred Elliott in 1895. Yet I think that could be Jemima Minnie Elliott

Looking on deceasedsearch- GMCT site we see the interment of RP Elliott at Fawkner. Interred June 1980 (relevance) aged 80 ie May birthday celebrated

--------------

Once again this is only speculation and subject to further check.

Any thoughts?

Re: Ray Ross

Ray Ross

Raymond Paul Ross

2 May 1900

Ess 1921

⬥ Ross is not Rich/StK player Raymond Roberts Ross from similar era ⬥ Potential that Raymond Paul Ross changed his name to Raymond Paul Elliott and died in 1980 (same mother) ⬥ More ruling out of other people (aka Raymond Roberts Ross) ⬥ Permit for an R. Ross going from Ess > NM in Rd 4, 1922 ⬥ Raymond Paul Ross was not a jeweller listed in 1921 (different guy)

I'm pretty happy to settle on Raymond Paul Elliott as our man. He is only listed in 2 trees on Ancestry yet they both list his birth year as 1900, which matches up with Raymond Paul Ross, and is sourced from the death index, which gives his death age as 80. It's quite likely that his mother Mary Alice Ross went by Alice. A death date of 10 June 1980 is something we haven't yet seen before. Are we happy to settle here? At least for now?

 

[the croucher]

Re: Ray Ross

Ray Ross

Raymond Paul Ross

2 May 1900

Ess 1921

⬥ Ross is not Rich/StK player Raymond Roberts Ross from similar era ⬥ Potential that Raymond Paul Ross changed his name to Raymond Paul Elliott and died in 1980 (same mother) ⬥ More ruling out of other people (aka Raymond Roberts Ross) ⬥ Permit for an R. Ross going from Ess > NM in Rd 4, 1922 ⬥ Raymond Paul Ross was not a jeweller listed in 1921 (different guy)

I'm pretty happy to settle on Raymond Paul Elliott as our man. He is only listed in 2 trees on Ancestry yet they both list his birth year as 1900, which matches up with Raymond Paul Ross, and is sourced from the death index, which gives his death age as 80. It's quite likely that his mother Mary Alice Ross went by Alice. A death date of 10 June 1980 is something we haven't yet seen before. Are we happy to settle here? At least for now?

View attachment 2172224

View attachment 2172225

View attachment 2172227

Marriage certificate for Raymond Paul Elliott m Alice Maude Brann on 14 April 1924 (Vic BDMs cert 3754/1924)
shows his father as Frederick Elliott (deceased) and his mother as Alice Ross,
and his age as 23 which ties in with DOB as 2 May.

I think that confirms the change of name, and Fawkner cemetery link shows date of funeral service as 12 June 1980 -

Deceased - RAYMOND PAUL ELLIOTT (GMCT)

www.gmct.com.au

so Ancestry date of death ref as 10 June 1980 seems pretty certain.

 

[Gibbsy]

Alby Williams

Albert Joseph Williams

3 Aug 1916

NM 1943

⬥ Married Doris Vivienne Williams (nee Jackman) in 1940 ⬥ When Doris passed away in 1964, Alby was still listed as alive in her death notice

I'm a little unsure about Albert Joseph Williams being our man here.

Going back to GreyCrow's post from a few years back:

Alby is in the DOD thread as well but I thought I might chase him through here. Looked at a few things and I want to run some thoughts past and hope that helps others look for clues. This is all based on Albert Joseph being the one we seek

Albys war record : 115 Australian General Hospital says his NOK was a Doris Williams. As Alby would have been 25 I have taken the presumption its his wife. Albert Joseph Williams married a Vivienne Doris Jackman in 1940 reg:11707 . This is the only relevant marriage in Victoria that suits the time period

A Doris Vivienne Williams is in the Age passing away March 14 1964. In the notices it gives Albert Joseph as husband (still alive) and an address for those electoral spotters. 44 McArthur Place Carlton. The notice also intimates no children were born (or survived) . Checking cemetery records it seems Doris was cremated and no plaque is mentioned. This was at Fawkner. Doris is listed aged 46 for a DOB 1917/18, which is in line with the marriage and AJs DOB

The assumption might be that Albert also remarries.

115th AGH was located at Heidelberg Hospital

But apart from that nothing as yet after 1964

27 years old is already quite old to be debuting in the VFL. It's even less likely after having completed war service that sent him to hospital. Not saying it can't be him, but it feels unlikely.

Especially when Ancestry suggests that Albert Joseph Williams is actually born in 1903, which would make him 40 at the point of debuting – almost impossible.



I don't think Albert Joseph Williams is our man in question.

The Alby Williams we need is someone who played in defence at Oakleigh before their transfer to North Melbourne.









Could it be Leslie Albert Williams instead? Birth year of 1919, which would make him 24 during his debut at North Melbourne.



He was also living in Oakleigh in 1942.



Thoughts?

 

[Gibbsy]

We did a lot of work a few years back on Bill Woods.

Bill Woods

William Cross Woods

[?] [?] 1881

Geel 1909

⬥ Thought by AFL to be William Henry Woods, DOB 31 Aug 1890 (unlikely) ⬥ Then believed to be William Woods, born 1890 in Portarlington, enlisted in First AIF in 1915 and returned to Aus in 1919 ⬥ Potential cremation date 6 July 1972 in Springvale (unlikely to be our man) ⬥ Initial scepticism from AFL/SR; mention of brother called Ike ⬥ Potential match of William Cross Woods (1881–1959) ⬥ Third son of Emma and Isaac Woods (potentially William's parents) died in 1891 ⬥ Discovery of alternate surname Burgess which seemed to be used interchangeably with Woods ⬥ DOD of William Cross Woods listed as 3 Aug 1959 in Geelong ⬥ Info on William's son Isaac ⬥ Detailed family tree of William Cross Woods, refuting AFL/SR likely incorrect beliefs that he was still William Henry Woods ⬥ AFL/SR still pushing back on William Cross ⬥ Burial info on Woods' potential wife Adeline Alice ⬥ Suggestion for AFL to purchase Woods' mother's death certificate to glean more information

I think we are almost certain in deducing it is William Cross Woods.

The AFL (Rodgers) were a bit tied up in knots about who is who. But our "Little Bill" being the brother of Isaac Henry "Ike" Woods is important.

Response received from AFL Rogers regarding our early September submissions.
His response below. The bold section as what I have added in this post.
Good news all round it seems. It seems he has had a change of heart for William Woods. See below.

William "Bill" Henry Woods , b:21/8/1890 Geelong 1909 RESPONSE REQUIRED FROM BF GUYS

- Woods.
Just further on what I said a few days ago, I had another look;
and I'd say that wasn't quite right, about William
born 1890 at East Bellarine (Portarlington), (who turned out to be your "Little Bill") having a family connection to Ike.

Ike as we know, was
Isaac Henry
born 1879 at Geelong to parents:
Isaac/Emma Lewis.

If we take it as a given that William Henry, player of 1909, was the half-brother of Ike -
and Col says this IS the case -
then the 1890 born at South Melbourne does in fact seem to be the man; with parents:
unknown/Emma Woods -
this Emma Woods, being Emma Lewis of the Ike parentage.

Can you tell your guys this;
it does seem this chap, is the right person.
Hopefully his death will still turn up somewhere!

Croucher figured out in his research that the 1890 Woods was not the right person.

No. I do not accept that the 1890 William Henry Woods (b South Melbourne) is the correct person.
His Vic BDMs entry states that father: unknown, mother: Emma Woods. There is no reference to her maiden name being Lewis.

Here below is the range of information I have found so far relating to Isaac Woods as father and Emma Lewis & Annie Galvin as mothers of various children. Note that practically all the entries have registration district as Geelong.

Teresa Ellen Wood (b 1878, d 1878 aged 1 in Geelong), Isaac Henry Woods (b 1879, d 1962 aged 83 in Geelong), William Cross Wood (b 1881 d 1959 aged 78 in Geelong), Theresa Eileen Wood (b 1883, d 1885 aged 2 in Geelong), John Thomas Wood (b 1885, d 1891 aged 6 in Geelong), Hart May Wood (b 1891), Elizabeth Ward (father Isaac Henry Woodburgess - mother Emma Lewis - d 1965 aged 77 in Preston, listed as b in Geelong)

to Emma Lewis no father named; Emma Lewis (d 1876 aged 1 in Geelong)

Minnie Elizabeth Wood (father Isaac, mother Emma Lewis, d 1887 in Geelong aged 13, no place of birth shown)

Emma Woodburgess (nee Lewis) died in Geelong 1892 aged 36 - perhaps the AFL could scrape together the $24.50 for a copy of her death certificate [1892/10299] and see what number of children she is listed as having given birth to in her life (indeed, their names will probably be shown)

Isaac Henry Wood Burgess married Annie Galvin in 1896
3 x chn to that couple
(Alfred James Burgess b 1897 in Geelong, d 1950 aged 53 in Geelong East), (Minnie Ellen Burgess b 1900 in Geelong, d 1904 in Geelong [as Burgess Wood] ), (Thomas Arthur Bergess b 1904 in Geelong)

None of those children are old enough to have played for Geelong in 1909.

I suspect that the 1909 player [as he is full brother to "Ike" Woods] should be listed as William Cross Woods (b 1881).
Remember too that the handwritten player register showing William Henry Woods was written up many years after the events,
so with the player immediately above that entry also being a William Henry, I think accidental duplication of given names is a possibility.

There's a fair bit more information on the children of Isaac Henry Woods snr and Emma Woodburgess (Lewis) on Ancestry now.





Surely this is our man? Ike doesn't appear in the timeline here because he was born before William was born and died after William passed away.



William is listed in Geelong Eastern Cemetery on Find a Grave; I'm not sure how his gravestone was identified given it's blank but whatever.

There's reference here to William being a Wood Burgess etc. in multiple listings too:





The 0-source trees are always good for "home-grown" information too:



This feels fairly cut and dry now.

Suggesting Bill Woods is:
William Cross Woods (1 June 1881 – 3 August 1959)

 

[35Daicos]

Alby Williams

Albert Joseph Williams

3 Aug 1916

NM 1943

⬥ Married Doris Vivienne Williams (nee Jackman) in 1940 ⬥ When Doris passed away in 1964, Alby was still listed as alive in her death notice

I'm a little unsure about Albert Joseph Williams being our man here.

Going back to GreyCrow's post from a few years back:



27 years old is already quite old to be debuting in the VFL. It's even less likely after having completed war service that sent him to hospital. Not saying it can't be him, but it feels unlikely.

Especially when Ancestry suggests that Albert Joseph Williams is actually born in 1903, which would make him 40 at the point of debuting – almost impossible.

View attachment 2172324

I don't think Albert Joseph Williams is our man in question.

The Alby Williams we need is someone who played in defence at Oakleigh before their transfer to North Melbourne.

View attachment 2172381

View attachment 2172382

View attachment 2172383

View attachment 2172385

Could it be Leslie Albert Williams instead? Birth year of 1919, which would make him 24 during his debut at North Melbourne.

View attachment 2172390

He was also living in Oakleigh in 1942.

View attachment 2172386

Thoughts?

Leslie Albert Williams enlisted:

Williams was back at Oakleigh early in 1945 (and played regularly that year), so this seems to rule Leslie Albert out:




This could be him joining the club in July 1936:

I have seen that player named as R. Williams, but I'm hoping that's a mistake! Blueseum has A. Williams (Carlton District) at the club in 1935, and on the final training list for the seconds, then there again in 1936: https://www.blueseum.org/1935+Reserves

He was classed as an old player on the Oakleigh list in 1937, so should have been at the club in 1936:

 

[GreyCrow]

I see the Seconds had an L Williams listed

Could be this from 1934-1936

Dandenong and District Football - CAULFIELD-OAKLEIGH ASSOCIATION. POSITION OF CLUBS. - The Dandenong Journal (Vic. : 1927 - 1954) - 25 Jun 1936

nla.gov.au

Dandenong v Ormond 1936



There are many references to both Les and Albie playing together for Dandenong in 1934-1936 - no mention of brothers or not and I dont know if these are junior grades

To be fair there is also no mention of Alby playing before 1934

They are at Dandy in 1950 still - I would suggest they are brothers which might help the search

Dandenong Doings - AS I SAW IT... - The Dandenong Journal (Vic. : 1927 - 1954) - 20 Sep 1950

DEATH—As the result of poor forward work against Spring Vale on the Showground, Saturday, September 16th, Dandenong Football Club, passed away ...

nla.gov.au

 

[GreyCrow]

The brother argument runs into a major issue if we take the above by 35Daicos regarding war record - and we should

Leslie Albert was born to Pansy Adelaide and Leslie Williams in 1919 suburb given as Melbourne

Going to Pansys death in 1952 the notice only mentions Leslie and a sister - they lived in Carnegie - which I see is on the Oakleigh line

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article279846034

 

[Gibbsy]

The brother argument runs into a major issue if we take the above by 35Daicos regarding war record - and we should

Leslie Albert was born to Pansy Adelaide and Leslie Williams in 1919 suburb given as Melbourne

Going to Pansys death in 1952 the notice only mentions Leslie and a sister - they lived in Carnegie - which I see is on the Oakleigh line

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article279846034

Unless Les "Tiny" Williams is not Leslie Albert Williams...

I like the link between Les and Alby being related and playing together at both Oakleigh and Dandenong.

 

[35Daicos]

I see the Seconds had an L Williams listed

Could be this from 1934-1936

Dandenong and District Football - CAULFIELD-OAKLEIGH ASSOCIATION. POSITION OF CLUBS. - The Dandenong Journal (Vic. : 1927 - 1954) - 25 Jun 1936

nla.gov.au

Dandenong v Ormond 1936

View attachment 2172436

There are many references to both Les and Albie playing together for Dandenong in 1934-1936 - no mention of brothers or not and I dont know if these are junior grades

To be fair there is also no mention of Alby playing before 1934

They are at Dandy in 1950 still - I would suggest they are brothers which might help the search

Dandenong Doings - AS I SAW IT... - The Dandenong Journal (Vic. : 1927 - 1954) - 20 Sep 1950

DEATH—As the result of poor forward work against Spring Vale on the Showground, Saturday, September 16th, Dandenong Football Club, passed away ...

nla.gov.au

View attachment 2172563

I did see the name Albie Williams at Dandenong pop up quite a bit, but thought it unlikely he could be the chap who was at Oakleigh for quite a few years, playing there (on and off) from c. 1936-1946. From what I've seen the Oakleigh man tried out at Fitzroy in 1937, Richmond in 1939, was probably at Carlton 1935-36, and finally managed a few senior games at North Melbourne in 1943. He seems to have been a very decent player in the VFA, and I think it rather odd that more isn't known about him!

The two Williams boys at Dandenong were brothers:


But they were playing together way back in 1931: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/201083613


Their opponent that day was Old Caulfield Grammarians, so I take it they weren't playing kids football.

I don't think it adds up that Alby could have been playing back in 1931, at North Melbourne twelve years later, and with Oakleigh (again) until 1946 at least!

 

[rbartlett]

rbartlett anything more ever found on Arch Robinson?

Arch Robinson

Archibald Robinson

9 Jul 1890

Rich 1911

⬥ Served in AIF in WWI; Army records suggest born in 1888, not 1890 ⬥ Divorced Edith Robinson Whitehead in 1921 ⬥ Was often misnamed as Robertson

Not new sorry from my end.

(Regarding all subsequent posts regarding other players etc, if you've decided on a solution make sure you do the summary and then myelf or the OP can advise Rogers)

 

[stemline]

Jack Taylor (Haw) born 9/5/1924

HFC club historian Peter Haby has provided a date of death as 9/5/2006, confirmed to him via family earlier this year.

Passed away on his 82nd birthday it seems.