Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[the croucher]

Here's an odd one. Charlie Stewart was a former Preston captain and premiership coach, so quite the figure in the club's history. His Wikipedia page before tonight was absolutely barebones – no infobox, and a small amount of (albeit sourced) information on his career.

After an hour or so of googling, I was able to find that five of his 11 years at Preston were interrupted by war, and that his captaincy reign lasted only one season, not two. I also sourced a games and goals tally, and found some stuff about his time at Reservoir post-Preston, where he was president and became a life member.

The listed birth date of "c. 1910" which was quoted across the web was really throwing me off; it didn't seem right that someone of that era could debut for a VFA club at the approximate age of 31, let alone continue to play until 41! After searching Trove for "Charlie Stewart", I per chance stumbled upon a lead to his birth date – an article from 4 September 1950 that listed his age as 29. That puts his birth year as either 1919 or 1920. I was able to update the Wikipedia page to this point.

However, this is where I've run into a bit of a stumbling block. Assuming he was born in Victoria and that 'Charles' is one of his given names, Vic BDM turns up three births between 1919 and 1920:

• Robert Charles Stewart (1919 in Mitiamo, son of Duncan Douglas)
• William Charles Stewart (1920 in Ascot Vale, son of Liddell)
• Maxwell Charles Stewart (1920 in Coburg, son of Charles William)

I would lean towards the latter given the location and the double-up of 'Charles', but I'm not sure if I'm sniffing in the wrong areas. Any ideas? And that's not even mentioning that we have no idea when his death date was, only that it was some time after 1980.

Well it wasn't William Charles. Sadly, that little baby only lived for a few weeks - death cert at Vic BDMs is 60/1920
and Maxwell Charles [Stuart] with father's name as Stewart...has death cert at Vic BDMs 27724/1965

 

[Gibbsy]

Charlie Stewart

Charlie Stewart was a stalwart of Preston Football Club, as a player, coach and supporter. He played 94 games between 1941 and 1951, missing four seasons due to World War Two. He was a tough competitor on the field, playing mostly in the centre of the ground or on the wing...

libraries.darebin.vic.gov.au

View attachment 1906842
This is meant to be Charlie, from a 1941 Preston team photo: Preston Football Club – 1941 Team Photo
View attachment 1906817
Army records suggest this chap is a great chance:
View attachment 1906836
View attachment 1906839
From Ancestry:
View attachment 1906833
The same person (also a Stewart) who 'posted' the above photo on Ancestry included this one:
View attachment 1906848
View attachment 1906838
That DOD does look to be correct: https://www.gmct.com.au/deceased
View attachment 1906854

Yep, I’m happy with that. Thank you! Will update when I can.

 

[Gibbsy]

What's the way of thinking re: what appears to be discrepancies in 'death age' on Vic BDM?

As some of you may know, I've been working through stub articles on Wikipedia and adding full name / birth place / death place to anyone that doesn't have it (usually sourced through Vic BDM). I think I've updated about 20 so far.

I'm a little stuck on Billy Green of Prahran Districts (6 games for St Kilda between 1932 and 1933).

• First assumption is that his given name is actually William; this is all but confirmed with a reference to "W. Green of Prahran" transferring from St Kilda.
• Next step is to search William Green on Vic BDM for 1978 deaths. I often find it's easier to work back from deaths to births as the name data is more complete (less abbreviations!)
• There's a William Frederick Green who died in Prahran in 1978, aged 71. Mother is Mary Alice Winterbottom, father is William Green. There's also five other potential matches, including one Lawrence William Green who also died in Prahran that year, but at age 64. While 71 doesn't match up with the listed death age of 68, my next step was to crosscheck with Vic BDM's list of 1910 births.
• William Frederick Green is also the top hit for 1910 births, and while the father is listed as William Isaac Green (a potential match), and the place of birth is East Melbourne (another potential match, given its proximity to Prahran), the mother's name is listed as "Garis De". Red herring?
• I checked out Ryerson. A few William Greens died in 1978, but nothing close to 19 June, the listed date.
• An Ancestry search with the birth/death dates of 1910 and 1978 led me to William Frederick Green as well (the second listing on that link, found in 10 trees). I don't have a subscription, so am limited to what I can see publicly – which is not all that much.

So even then, if William Frederick is our man, what explains the age discrepancy on the Vic BDM death notice? Is this a semi common thing? Thanks.

 

[rbartlett]

What's the way of thinking re: what appears to be discrepancies in 'death age' on Vic BDM?

As some of you may know, I've been working through stub articles on Wikipedia and adding full name / birth place / death place to anyone that doesn't have it (usually sourced through Vic BDM). I think I've updated about 20 so far.

I'm a little stuck on Billy Green of Prahran Districts (6 games for St Kilda between 1932 and 1933).

• First assumption is that his given name is actually William; this is all but confirmed with a reference to "W. Green of Prahran" transferring from St Kilda.
• Next step is to search William Green on Vic BDM for 1978 deaths. I often find it's easier to work back from deaths to births as the name data is more complete (less abbreviations!)
• There's a William Frederick Green who died in Prahran in 1978, aged 71. Mother is Mary Alice Winterbottom, father is William Green. There's also five other potential matches, including one Lawrence William Green who also died in Prahran that year, but at age 64. While 71 doesn't match up with the listed death age of 68, my next step was to crosscheck with Vic BDM's list of 1910 births.
• William Frederick Green is also the top hit for 1910 births, and while the father is listed as William Isaac Green (a potential match), and the place of birth is East Melbourne (another potential match, given its proximity to Prahran), the mother's name is listed as "Garis De". Red herring?
• I checked out Ryerson. A few William Greens died in 1978, but nothing close to 19 June, the listed date.
• An Ancestry search with the birth/death dates of 1910 and 1978 led me to William Frederick Green as well (the second listing on that link, found in 10 trees). I don't have a subscription, so am limited to what I can see publicly – which is not all that much.

So even then, if William Frederick is our man, what explains the age discrepancy on the Vic BDM death notice? Is this a semi common thing? Thanks.

So this article says he is W.F. Green.


And therefore this looks to be sub-district clearance from South Melbourne District that then allows Green to go to Prahran


The only thing I'll add to this we may want to double check that Wiki/AFL DOB and DOD are for the right Green in the first place, cause we know now that when Rodgers attempted to identify players (full name/ DOB and DOD) from his indepth research back in the late 1980s - it was pre internet, and using indexes at the State Library, and in some cases he made an educated guess based on the players name and where they were recruited from/to as their ultimate death location. (this isn't a criticism towards him)

 

[35Daicos]

What's the way of thinking re: what appears to be discrepancies in 'death age' on Vic BDM?

As some of you may know, I've been working through stub articles on Wikipedia and adding full name / birth place / death place to anyone that doesn't have it (usually sourced through Vic BDM). I think I've updated about 20 so far.

I'm a little stuck on Billy Green of Prahran Districts (6 games for St Kilda between 1932 and 1933).

• First assumption is that his given name is actually William; this is all but confirmed with a reference to "W. Green of Prahran" transferring from St Kilda.
• Next step is to search William Green on Vic BDM for 1978 deaths. I often find it's easier to work back from deaths to births as the name data is more complete (less abbreviations!)
• There's a William Frederick Green who died in Prahran in 1978, aged 71. Mother is Mary Alice Winterbottom, father is William Green. There's also five other potential matches, including one Lawrence William Green who also died in Prahran that year, but at age 64. While 71 doesn't match up with the listed death age of 68, my next step was to crosscheck with Vic BDM's list of 1910 births.
• William Frederick Green is also the top hit for 1910 births, and while the father is listed as William Isaac Green (a potential match), and the place of birth is East Melbourne (another potential match, given its proximity to Prahran), the mother's name is listed as "Garis De". Red herring?
• I checked out Ryerson. A few William Greens died in 1978, but nothing close to 19 June, the listed date.
• An Ancestry search with the birth/death dates of 1910 and 1978 led me to William Frederick Green as well (the second listing on that link, found in 10 trees). I don't have a subscription, so am limited to what I can see publicly – which is not all that much.

So even then, if William Frederick is our man, what explains the age discrepancy on the Vic BDM death notice? Is this a semi common thing? Thanks.

This chap's DOD is a match with the one in the game's records:


You see an age discrepancy with the death registrations quite often, I'd say.

I'm not convinced it's the right man (either)!!
This should be the 1910 born chap:

And I imagine this is the one who died on 19 June 1978:

 

[rbartlett]

This chap is a match with the one in the game's records:
View attachment 1908233
View attachment 1908234
You see an age discrepancy with the death registrations quite often, I'd say.

I'm not convinced it's the right man!!
This should be the 1910 born chap:
View attachment 1908244
And I imagine this is the one who died on 19 June 1978:
View attachment 1908243
View attachment 1908246

If W F Green did go to Prahran in 1935, then this could be him in 1936 which has him as 11st 10, 5ft 10, and 26 years of age - which puts his DOB at circa 1910. (His weight and date is slightly off compared to his wiki, but not by too much)

 

[35Daicos]

If W F Green did go to Prahran in 1935, then this could be him in 1936 which has him as 11st 10, 5ft 11, and 26 years of age - which puts his DOB at circa 1910. (His weight and date is slightly off compared to his wiki, but not by too much)
View attachment 1908257

I'm sure that will be him:


One tree on Ancestry has this for the chap born in 1910:


Then there's this!:

So William Frederick Green who was born 1 January 1910 died in 1995, not in 1978. As long as the game's records do have the right DOB for the player (that does seem likely) then the DOD needs to be changed to 28 March 1995.

Nicely spotted BTW Gibbsy!

 

[Gibbsy]

Great sleuthing, team!

Summary: Update Billy Green (William Frederick Green) DOD to 28 March 1995

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Great sleuthing, team!

Summary: Update Billy Green (William Frederick Green) DOD to 28 March 1999

Do you mean 1995?

 

[Gibbsy]

Do you mean 1995?

Whoops! Yep, thanks. Lots of typing tonight!

 

[ThePope]

The problem with the birthdate mixups is working out which version is actually correct. Could be any of the versions in any of the sources. Often they all are different.

As an example, the 2 that I found years ago with "US style" birthdate mixups are

Player	AFL Tables DOB	AustralianFootball DOB	Other DOB	WikiPedia/WikiData DOB
Peter Warburton (footballer) (Carlton)	3 Sep 1951	3 Sep 1951	9 Mar 1951 (Blueseum)	3 Sep 1951
Frank Hodgins (Geelong)	4 May 1888	5 April 1888		5 April 1888

For Peter, I'd generally trust Blueseum as they may have been closer to him, but I found Peter's Facebook and whilst there are no definitive posts I can see, he did post in August 2019 that "for his birthday please donate instead". So that makes me think it's September.
Can't find anything on Trove, even though his dad (also a Carlton footballer) was hospitalised after an on-field clash in Sept 1952. Unfortunately no mention of his 18 or 12 month old son in any of the articles that I could see! Nor two years later when he was injured in Perth vs South and his wife had to go over to be with him.

As for Frank... nothing on Trove, and I don't have access to Ancestry anymore.

 

[Gibbsy]

Before about half an hour ago, Frank "Dinky" Barry was one of the few league footballers (albeit SAFL) on Wikipedia not to have either a birth date or death date listed. As a Magarey Medallist, there is surely a bit of info out there.

AF had a birth year of 1892 but nothing else, and then this recent article about the Frank Barry Medal mentioned that he died in 1963 aged 70.

I've updated the WP page with the years, but I think we should be able to narrow it down to exact dates if GreyCrow could please share any details from Genealogy SA.

It lists both the 1892 birth and 1963 death.






Thanks!

 

[GreyCrow]

Before about half an hour ago, Frank "Dinky" Barry was one of the few league footballers (albeit SAFL) on Wikipedia not to have either a birth date or death date listed. As a Magarey Medallist, there is surely a bit of info out there.

AF had a birth year of 1892 but nothing else, and then this recent article about the Frank Barry Medal mentioned that he died in 1963 aged 70.

I've updated the WP page with the years, but I think we should be able to narrow it down to exact dates if GreyCrow could please share any details from Genealogy SA.

It lists both the 1892 birth and 1963 death.

View attachment 1908633

View attachment 1908632


Thanks!

Surname:BARRY
Given Names:Francis Martin
Date of Birth:11-Aug-1892
Gender:M
Father:Michael BARRY
Mother:Kate DOOHAN
Birth Residence:Adelaide
District:Adelaide
Book/Page:506/53

Regimental number	2551
Place of birth	Adelaide, South Australia
Religion	Roman Catholic
Occupation	Civil servant
Address	218 Gilles Street, Adelaide, South Australia
Marital status	Single
Age at embarkation	23
Next of kin	Mother, Mrs Kate Barry, 218 Gilles Street, Adelaide, South Australia
Enlistment date	2 August 1915
Date of enlistment from Nominal Roll	19 July 1915
Rank on enlistment	Acting Sergeant
Unit name	27th Battalion, 6th Reinforcement
AWM Embarkation Roll number	23/44/2
Embarkation details	Unit embarked from Adelaide, South Australia, on board HMAT A24 Benalla on 27 October 1915
Rank from Nominal Roll	S/LT
Unit from Nominal Roll	10th Battalion
Fate	Returned to Australia 20 May 1919

Surname:BARRY
First Names:Francis Martin
Death Date:19-Jun-1963
Age:70
Gender:M
Marital Status:M
Place of Death:Adelaide
Residence:Wayville
Relative:Not Recorded
District:Adelaide
Book/Page:957/3522
Notes:Symbol=H.

 

[Gibbsy]

Surname:BARRY
Given Names:Francis Martin
Date of Birth:11-Aug-1892
Gender:M
Father:Michael BARRY
Mother:Kate DOOHAN
Birth Residence:Adelaide
District:Adelaide
Book/Page:506/53

Regimental number	2551
Place of birth	Adelaide, South Australia
Religion	Roman Catholic
Occupation	Civil servant
Address	218 Gilles Street, Adelaide, South Australia
Marital status	Single
Age at embarkation	23
Next of kin	Mother, Mrs Kate Barry, 218 Gilles Street, Adelaide, South Australia
Enlistment date	2 August 1915
Date of enlistment from Nominal Roll	19 July 1915
Rank on enlistment	Acting Sergeant
Unit name	27th Battalion, 6th Reinforcement
AWM Embarkation Roll number	23/44/2
Embarkation details	Unit embarked from Adelaide, South Australia, on board HMAT A24 Benalla on 27 October 1915
Rank from Nominal Roll	S/LT
Unit from Nominal Roll	10th Battalion
Fate	Returned to Australia 20 May 1919

Surname:BARRY
First Names:Francis Martin
Death Date:19-Jun-1963
Age:70
Gender:M
Marital Status:M
Place of Death:Adelaide
Residence:Wayville
Relative:Not Recorded
District:Adelaide
Book/Page:957/3522
Notes:Symbol=H.

Thank you my friend!

WP and AF now updated.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I'm currently working on a full data comparison across wikidata/af.com/AFL tables... I'm about to send Oliver a large volume of updates for af.com so edits to wiki can be sourced appropriately

So... this is a big job
Going through the first 1000 VFL footballers I have

• 6 DOB updates for australianfootball.com
• 22 DOB updates for AFL Tables (including 2 player ID changes - Roy Wawn & Tom Hawking)
• 7 DOB updates for wikidata

I'll email Oliver & Paul the updates but there are a couple of questions

1. Do we have an exact DOB for Kelly Robinson? Vic BDM shows 1876 but AFL Tables now has 29 Jun 1876 (it used to be 21 Nov 1873) - does anyone know if this is a confirmed DOB as I can't see any mention of it on these boards
2. Bill McNamara - I cannot work out if 8/6/1876 or 9/6/1876 is correct.
3. Ralph Robertson - birth was registered in Q3 1882 in UK but many Ancestry trees have 31/08/1882 (footy records are either 5/8/1882 or 31/8/1881) - is 5/8/1882 or 31/8/1882 correct? (given he died in WW1 this feels like the date should be somewhere but I haven't found it)

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Tommy Ryan. (Richmond 1895-97). Carlt 1898, Melb 1899-1902. Blueseum and Demonwiki both have his dob at 9 October 1871. Wiki however has it at 12 August 1873

This one has bothered me for ages... but the answer is clear when you read this article

Tommy Ryan was a pseudonym all along - he was actually Thomas Herbert Arrowsmith - born in Sydney on 12 Aug 1873 and died at Mont Park on 29 Aug 1948

Supermercado - this is wrong on demonwiki
The Blueseum - this is wrong on Blueseum as well

 

[rbartlett]

This one has bothered me for ages... but the answer is clear when you read this article

Tommy Ryan was a pseudonym all along - he was actually Thomas Herbert Arrowsmith - born in Sydney on 12 Aug 1873 and died at Mont Park on 29 Aug 1948

Supermercado - this is wrong on demonwiki

Well that seems to make sense to me, particularly as he is making that name confession in a court of law
I'll leave him as a richmond player under name Tommy Ryan, but in the notes on TigerlandArchive state what his real name was

Summary for Rodgers:
Tommy Ryan is actually Thomas Herbert Arrowsmith - born in Sydney on 12 Aug 1873 and died at Mont Park on 29 Aug 1948
During his playing days for Richmond, Carlton, Melbourne he was Tommy Ryan

 

[Gibbsy]

Trying to update GreyCrow 's old missing DOD list to something representing where we are at in 2024. It was previously last updated in November 2021 so there was a bit of work to do. I've removed the ID numbers at the start as they were from the old list almost a decade ago and have no relevance now with so many in between 'found'.

This has been quite a laborious task going back and finding all the notes for each of these cases, so bear with me while I complete the table intermittently. Some of the names listed may have been 'found' since Nov 2021, so I'll eventually remove them too, if so. Cheers!

Missing DODs/possibly living V/AFL footballers as at 20 February 2024

Player name	Full name	D.O.B.	Career	Notes
Des Bell	Desmond Clyde Bell	23 May 1923	Melb 1946–48	Alive in Aug 2022
Harry Brown	Harold Francis Brown	[?] [?] 1902	StK 1927	Thought by AFL to be Henry John Brown, DOB 16 Oct 1903 (unlikely) Played for Caulfield and Hawksburn prior to StK H. Brown transferred StK > Camberwell H. F. Brown (same guy?) went C'well > Coll. District
Otto Buck	Samuel Otto John Buck	15 Nov 1876	Carl 1897	Last confirmed existence in Mildura, 1917 (electoral roll); extensive notes on Ancestry here but no DOD Did not die in 1946 as some trees claim (different Samuel Buck)
Jack Cliff	Jack Louis Cliff	23 May 1919	StK 1940–42	Played for West Broken Hill prior to StK AFL/SR says: became a 'gangster', killed in unmarked grave Last confirmed existence in Elwood, 1980 (electoral roll)
Frank Corby	Eugene Francis Corby	24 Dec 1924	Coll 1948	Lawrence William Corby was Frank's brother, not a pseudonym Previous Coll FC contact with family did not reveal DOD
Fred Coulsell	Frederick Rowland Coulsell	17 Dec 1905	NM 1927; Ess 1931	Ancestry tree shows DOD of 16 Jun 1997 at Beenleigh, QLD This is a solid lead, but we need confirmation
Bobby Craig	Robert Ritchie Craig	29 Mar 1882	Melb 1902	Born in Williamstown (Aus), moved to Scotland by 1901 (census) Departed Liverpool for Argentina in 1913, married in Scotland in 1914 Brother Andrew buried in Dromana (Aus) in 1982
Max Glass	Maxwell Herbert Glass	2 Oct 1925	SM 1945	Last confirmed existence in Jan 1999 (possibly near Coffs Harbour) Living in Rye, 1980 (electoral roll), has a son also named Maxwell (John)
Gordon Green	Gordon Stanley Green	31 May 1925	NM 1942	Alive in Jul 2018
Bill Hearn	Roger Musgrove Hearn	4 Mar 1913	Rich 1935	Initially thought by AFL to be Roy William Hearn (unlikely) Played for Minyip from 1937–39, where he was referred to as Roger ("Bill") Hearn AFL/SR says: enlisted in WW2 as William Hearn, strong links to Ballarat, death year of 1974 touted in some Ancestry trees
Charlie Jenkins	William Charles Jenkins	21 Aug 1874	Fitz 1898	Thought by AFL to be Charles Herbert Jenkins, DOB 17 Jun 1878, cousin of Ern Jenkins (unlikely) Jenkins often called himself Charles William instead of William Charles He transferred to Fitzroy in 1894 Ancestry tree shows DOD of 1 Jun 1956 Seems like we have it figured out, looks like we are waiting to confirm a la Fred Coulsell?
Edmund Kirwin	Edmund Kirwin	31 Mar 1876	StK 1898	Kirwin's brother Maurice died in 1960 Kirwin was an established cricketer for St Kilda CC; CricketArchive records list an Edward Kirwan (diff spelling both names), DOB 1872, DOD 20 Feb 1929 Michael Kirwen (again, diff spelling) listed as brother of Maurice, died in 1952, but no mention of Edmund, despite the fact they were also brothers
Billy Leahy	William Francis Roy Leahy	7 Mar 1911	Foot 1934–36	Leahy's mother died in 1957 in Bulawayo, Southern Rhodesia; death notice makes no mention of Billy Shipping record shows Leahy sailed to South Africa on 2 Jan 1948, aged 36 Leahy first moved to South Africa in late 1937, aged 26 Leahy's supposed grandson makes contact with Oliver G in Nov 2022 saying that some information posted is incorrect, but he didn't specify and hasn't been heard from since
Tom Lee	Thomas Francis Lee	11 Dec 1874	Coll 1897–98	Lee's mother Elizabeth appears to have died on the day of his birth There are no death notices for any of his relatives that have died Ancestry trees and death notices suggest he died before 1915, possibly before 1904
George Lockwood	George Lockwood	6 Dec 1872	Geel 1899–1901; Coll 1902–04	AFL/SR says: possible death year of 1946(unlikely) A George Hislop Lockwood died overseas in war in 1917 (inconclusive) Lockwood lived until at least 1944 according to death notice of relative Lockwood's twin Teddy died in 1953 The Lockwood lineage looks as so
Joe Marchant	[?]	[?] c. 1884	StK 1904	Thought by AFL to be John Albert Marchant, DOB 11 Sep 1884 in NSW (unlikely) No transfer details; "The Encyclopedia" lists him as Joseph Marchant
Jim McDonald	James William McDonald	[?] [?] 1913	Melb 1942	Thought by AFL/SR to be James Kenneth McDonald, DOB 24 Jun 1916 (unlikely) Brother of Alan McDonald, player (1939–43) and coach (1957–60) of Richmond From Leongatha, still with Melb in early 1943 A permit of J. W. McDonald (could be Jim?) from Melb to Rich in Jun 1943 J. W. went from Rich to Camberwell in 1945 alongside (brother?) Alan Alan's son had supposedly been in touch with AFL/CH in Jun 2018 to provide Jim K.'s DOD, but heard nothing since Rhett made contact with Alan's daughter in Mar 2020, but heard nothing since Vic BDM search suggests James William, died 1984 in Meeniyan, is our man Looks like this one could be fairly close to being tied up
Jack McKenzie	John James McKenzie	19 Aug 1908	Ess 1929	Son of John Joseph 'Dookie' McKenzie (1881–1946) Married Lorna Davis Ireland in 1933, divorced in 1939 Listed as deceased in father Dookie's death notice, so McKenzie's death is presumed between Jul 1939 and Mar 1946
Alf Neeson	Alfred Carl Frank Neeson	15 Jun 1914	Fitz 1935–36; Haw 1936–38	DOB thought in early research to be 5 June 1914 due to war records (proven false via Vic BDM) Joined Army in early 1935 and discharged later that year Was arrested in 1939 for stealing a car, changed his name at some point around this time to Alfred Briggs Married Ivy McRae/Seale in 1940 as Alfred M. Briggs Potentially interchanging use of Briggs/Neeson names, was in WA goldfields region in late 1940s Former wife Ivy died in 1974 Further evidence suggesting Alf swapped between Briggs & Neeson throughout his life AFL/SR says: suggest Alf used Alfred Milton Briggs as a full name; Alfred and Ivy on Kalgoorlie electoral roll in 1949 Further SR research; no Briggs in Kalgoorlie cemetery Alma Seale (sister of Ivy Briggs)'s daughter Winifred moved to Frankston before 1980 Winifred contacted Rhett in Nov 2017 but only had vague memories of Alf SR: No response from New Norcia Monastery (potential lead from Winifred) Genealogist with history of researching Alf says he married at least once, possibly twice more after Ivy, and Milton Kenneth Briggs is possibly an adopted son
Mick O'Hagan	Michael Joseph O'Hagan	22 Jan 1878	StK 1897	Michael Joseph O'Hagan studied pharmacy at Melb Uni in 1895; mentioned in court case in 1908 as being from Nathalia His sister, Mary Terese, died in 1970 aged 90; death notice lists Mick as deceased Some questioning over whether Michael Joseph is our man given lack of quality of early St Kilda player records Given contemporaries and schooling, confident that he is the right man
George Prismall	George Henry Prismall	10 Mar 1915	Ess 1935	Served in British Merchant Navy during WWII Mother was Gladys Prismall (1893–1980), who didn't marry His sister, Phyllis Catherine, died in 2014 Last existence, living in Earls Court (Aussie hotspot) circa 1947–48
Sam Reid	Samuel Alexander Reid	17 Jun 1872	Carl 1897	Parents were likely James Reid and Ann Eliza Reid (nee Ralston) Probably not the Samuel Reid 50 Samuel Reid Age 35 Ht 188cm Wt 85kg Pos. Def Career Season Last 5 D 12.4 3star K 6.5 3star HB 5.9 4star M 3.1 3star T 3.0 5star MG 176.3 3star No current season stats available D 12.6 4star K 4.0 2star HB 8.6 5star M 3.4 4star T 4.6 5star that died in 1949 and may have lived in Japan (different parents to those listed on Blueseum)
Arch Robinson	Archibald Robinson	9 Jul 1890	Rich 1911	Served in AIF during WWI; Army records suggest he was born in 1888, not 1890 Divorced Edith Robinson Whitehead in 1921 Was often misnamed as Robertson
Ray Ross	Raymond Paul Ross	2 May 1900	Ess 1921	Ross is not the Rich/StK player Raymond Roberts Ross, from a similar era Potential that Raymond Paul Ross changed his name to Raymond Paul Elliott and died in 1980 (same mother) More ruling out of other people (aka Raymond Roberts Ross) Permit for an R. Ross going from Ess > NM in Rd 4, 1922 Raymond Paul Ross was not a jeweller listed in 1921 (different guy)
Jim Smith	James William Smith	11 Feb 1887	SM 1906	No research listed on BF! Have at it, team!
Alby Williams	Albert Joseph Williams	3 Aug 1916	NM 1943	Married Doris Vivienne Williams (nee Jackman) in 1940 When Doris passed away in 1964, Alby was still listed as alive in her death notice
Bill Woods	William Cross Woods	[?] [?] 1881	Geel 1909	Thought by AFL to be William Henry Woods, DOB 31 Aug 1890 (unlikely) Then believed to be William Woods, born 1890 in Portarlington, enlisted in First AIF in 1915 and returned to Aus in 1919 Potential cremation date 6 July 1972 in Springvale Initial scepticism from AFL/SR; mention of brother called Ike Potential match of William Cross Woods (1881–1959) Third son of Emma and Isaac Woods (potentially William's parents) died in 1891 Discovery of alternate surname Burgess which seemed to be used interchangeably with Woods DOD of William Cross Woods listed as 3 Aug 1959 in Geelong Info on William's son Isaac Detailed family tree of William Cross Woods, refuting AFL/SR likely incorrect beliefs that he was still William Henry Woods AFL/SR still pushing back on William Cross Burial info on Woods' potential wife Adeline Alice Suggestion for AFL to purchase Woods' mother's death certificate to glean more information This one feels very close and gettable

 

[Gibbsy]

Some notes from me when going through the list:

Roger Musgrove 'Bill' Hearn: Hearn's DOB should be updated from 4 March 1913 to 4 March 1914. This seems pretty clear cut with a BDM lookup, unless I'm missing something.



Re: 1974 DOD, here's the multiple Ancestry trees purporting that year.



Now obviously the very first tree has some contradictions with "Residence 1977 Drouin", but further investigation shows the source revealing that electoral roll is actually for a Roger Hugh Hearn, who looks to have died on 1 March 2018.

One thinks that the tree created by Patricia Hearn (an obvious relative) would be our best lead for more info on the death date for Roger Musgrove Hearn, but then again, her tree has the false DOB (out by one year...)



Vic BDM doesn't have any records for Roger Musgrove Hearn dying from 1935–1994. So it's hard to think that the death took place in Victoria. I think we keep sniffing around the 1974 time period, but outside the state.

 

[Gibbsy]

Harold Francis 'Harry' Brown: I think the H. F. Brown transfer listing is fairly conclusive evidence that this is our man. His 1902 exact DOB is not listed anywhere online, but it can be discovered for a fee via Vic BDM.

As for his DOD, there is a chance we can deduce that without paying up, but I actually think it is none of the dates listed below:



After searching for his full name, I found a family research page which lists a bit more info about Brown, including where he's buried and his service date.



Now the funeral is not going to have been held on the same day as his death, obviously. And we know the service was definitely held on 17 March 1975 (note the misspelling of Francis/Frances).



This makes me think that a lot of the Ancestry listings are typos, and that he actually died on 13 March 1975. This will need further investigation (and potentially paying up to the Vic BDM again), but we know for sure that he died in 1975, at the age of 72.



This would put his DOB some time between 13 March 1902 and 31 December 1902.

 

[Gibbsy]

William Francis Roy 'Billy' Leahy: Regarding the posts from Leahy's grandson (whose name undoubtedly begins with G), he says that the information posted is incorrect, but isn't specific.



Oliver and another Dogs fan tried to follow up and make contact that same day, and 'GLeahy' liked Oliver's post.



'GLeahy' then signed in the next day, however no further public contact was made, and the last time he was seen on BF was 27 November 2022.

I thought I would do some digging on Leahy's very bare Wikipedia article to search for clues. In the edit revisions, on 16 August 2015, an IP address located in Auckland, New Zealand edited the 'Place of death' field in Leahy's infobox to read "Victoria Falls - Zimbabwe (Former Rhodesia)". No further information was given, and the edit was reverted within three hours due to it being unsourced.



Almost five years went by, and then on 1 June 2020, another IP address – again located in Auckland – edited that same 'Place of death' field in Leahy's infobox to read "Victoria Falls - Rhodesia (Zimbabme) [sic]". This time, the unsourced edit was reverted within just one minute!

It seems very clear to me that this Auckland-based editor knows something we don't know. They are very likely a family member of Billy Leahy, and there's every chance it could be that same 'GLeahy' who posted on BF.

Someone has been trying to correct the record of Leahy on the internet for almost a decade, but they haven't yet found out the proper way to do so. At least, now, we have a greater clue than perhaps any of us had before.

 

[Gibbsy]

George Lockwood: Should he and Edward's DOB be listed as 6 December 1873 rather than 6 December 1872? Or is it sometimes the case that December births have their registration year in the next calendar year?

 

[35Daicos]

George Lockwood: Should he and Edward's DOB be listed as 6 December 1873 rather than 6 December 1872? Or is it sometimes the case that December births have their registration year in the next calendar year?

View attachment 1909642

View attachment 1909644

The registration numbers (2713 & 2714) suggest the reg. was done quite early in the year (1873), so in this case it's almost certain they were born late in 1872, and the births not registered until early the following year.

 

[Gibbsy]

The registration numbers (2713 & 2714) suggest the reg. was done quite early in the year (1873), so in this case it's almost certain they were born late in 1872, and the births not registered until early the following year.

Thought as much. Thanks mate. Keen to see how you tackle the other cases above!

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Some notes from me when going through the list:

Roger Musgrove 'Bill' Hearn: Hearn's DOB should be updated from 4 March 1913 to 4 March 1914. This seems pretty clear cut with a BDM lookup, unless I'm missing something.

Re: 1974 DOD, here's the multiple Ancestry trees purporting that year.

Vic BDM doesn't have any records for Roger Musgrove Hearn dying from 1935–1994. So it's hard to think that the death took place in Victoria. I think we keep sniffing around the 1974 time period, but outside the state.

..I think the 1974 date may be misleading - Roger Musgrove Hearn is listed in his brother Richard's death notice in 1974 (not noted as deceased) - so some trees have death as "after 1974" but this has then been interpreted by others as a 1974 death. He has multiple siblings dying in the 1974 to 1991 window so perhaps dates can be further narrowed if their death notices can be found...