Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[35Daicos]

A Thomas Francis Lee married Jeanette (Janet) Stewart (Stuart) Cook - names seem to be interchangable which is why there are 2 candidates

Janet Stuart Lee died Monbulk 1943 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article11344923 relict of the late Thomas Lee - so this Thomas Lee dies before 1943

They have 1 child Frank or Thomas Francis 1896-1949

Frank joined the AIF in 1915 and NOK is listed as Mrs JS Lee - rather than father at the time

Thomas Francis LEE

Regimental number	6306
Place of birth	Carlton Victoria
Religion	Methodist
Occupation	Farmer
Address	Monbulk, Victoria
Marital status	Single
Age at embarkation	18
Next of kin	Mother, Mrs J S Lee, Monbulk, Victoria

This suggests that Thomas Lee wasnt alive in 1915

I looked at those folks at Monbulk last night but just wasn't convinced it was the right family. The fact that the son was born at Carlton in 1896 (when the Collingwood player should have been in Melbourne) is handy:

I haven't seen anything on BDM that calls the father Thomas Francis, I've only seen Thomas.

This is a major concern (if it's correct), as the father should have been born in 1874:

 

[35Daicos]

^ This has him aged 47 when he died, so born in 1861:

 

[the croucher]

<snip>

22 Frederick "Fred" Rowland Coulsell b:17/12/1905 Nth:1927,Ess 1931

<snip>

A tree on Ancestry has an entry showing DOD for FR Coulsell of 16 June 1997 at Beenleigh, Queensland.
The online index for Beenleigh Cemetery and others nearby do not have any ref to him.

Unfortunately the Queensland BDMs search page only allows death info up to 1991 to be released.

 

[the croucher]

<snip>
40 Edward "Ted" Page Heffernan b:16/5/1869 Carl 1897
<snip>

Might have found the missing Heffernan...might have...
An Ancestry tree had entry for Richard Page Heffernan with DOB 16/5/1869 as dying in 1904.

Upon checking Vic BDMs, there is an entry for him with death registration year of 1904 (#6277) in a place abbreviated as Prn H
and being aged 34 (thus born 1869/70). And his parents are Thomas Heffernan and Mary Minogue [same as "Ted"]

Edward Page H is the only Heffernan child listed as being born to Thomas and Mary in 1869 (#8881), so no ref to Richard Page H being a twin.

Cannot see anything on Trove yet to help it along, but looks promising I think.

 

[GreyCrow]

Might have found the missing Heffernan...might have...
An Ancestry tree had entry for Richard Page Heffernan with DOB 16/5/1869 as dying in 1904.

Upon checking Vic BDMs, there is an entry for him with death registration year of 1904 (#6277) in a place abbreviated as Prn H
and being aged 34 (thus born 1869/70). And his parents are Thomas Heffernan and Mary Minogue [same as "Ted"]

Edward Page H is the only Heffernan child listed as being born to Thomas and Mary in 1869 (#8881), so no ref to Richard Page H being a twin.

Cannot see anything on Trove yet to help it along, but looks promising I think.

Yes I think we all came to the same conclusion but nothing from the AFL - rbartlett what was the outcome of this?

 

[the croucher]

Yes I think we all came to the same conclusion but nothing from the AFL - rbartlett what was the outcome of this?

Ah...I see your comments in post #539...and my search notes just before that (had forgotten I'd already checked the Vic BDMs etc)...

 

[rbartlett]

Yes I think we all came to the same conclusion but nothing from the AFL - rbartlett what was the outcome of this?

Cant see if on the spreadsheet so I assume I was waiting for confirmation from this group that this was the research to submit.
Is there any additional research to add

 

[the croucher]

<snip>
11 Henry "Harry" John Brown b:16/10/1903 St Kilda 1927
<snip>

We've been looking for the wrong person I think.

Can confirm that the H J Brown born 1903 in Victoria to Henry and Elizabeth [nee Mason] is with that same family living in Newbury, Berkshire, England when 1911 Census is done, father by that time a licensed victualler. Listed as a 7 year old son, his name is given as "Jack."

By the time the National Register is compiled in the UK in 1939, his father had died, but mother Elizabeth E is listed as a licensed victualler in Newbury, Berkshire, and [Jack] John H is listed in same household aged 36 as a maintenance electrician with birthdate of 16 October 1903.

Trove research indicates that in 1927 the player Brown who went to St Kilda was from Hawksburn Juniors...

 

[35Daicos]

We've been looking for the wrong person I think.

Can confirm that the H J Brown born 1903 in Victoria to Henry and Elizabeth [nee Mason] is with that same family living in Newbury, Berkshire, England when 1911 Census is done, father by that time a licensed victualler. Listed as a 7 year old son, his name is given as "Jack."

By the time the National Register is compiled in the UK in 1939, his father had died, but mother Elizabeth E is listed as a licensed victualler in Newbury, Berkshire, and [Jack] John H is listed in same household aged 36 as a maintenance electrician with birthdate of 16 October 1903.

Trove research indicates that in 1927 the player Brown who went to St Kilda was from Hawksburn Juniors...

The Encyclopedia has him playing for Caulfield and Hawksburn prior to St Kilda. He went to Camberwell in 1928:


This could be interesting!: The VFA Project



Reserves/VFL Players A-D | Collingwood Forever (collingwoodfc.com.au)

So where does the 'F' come from? This chap should be a good candidate:


He was living in Melbourne for a while:

 

[the croucher]

The Encyclopedia has him playing for Caulfield and Hawksburn prior to St Kilda. He went to Camberwell in 1928:
View attachment 1124387

This could be interesting!: The VFA Project
View attachment 1124384
View attachment 1124390

Reserves/VFL Players A-D | Collingwood Forever (collingwoodfc.com.au)
View attachment 1124386
So where does the 'F' come from? This chap should be a good candidate:
View attachment 1124395
View attachment 1124396
He was living in Melbourne for a while:
View attachment 1124402
View attachment 1124414

Harold Francis Brown is listed in the 1926 electoral roll as living with his parents John & Rose at 704 Windermere Street, Ballarat.

 

[35Daicos]

Harold Francis Brown is listed in the 1926 electoral roll as living with his parents John & Rose at 704 Windermere Street, Ballarat.

Ah, that's not so good, unless he left Ballarat early that year and played football in Melbourne in 1926. It would be tricky if he is meant to have played for both Caulfield and Hawksburn (before going to St Kilda), however! I'm wondering if that is him on the electoral roll in Melbourne in 1927 at least (from previous post), as he was working as a labourer just a few years later:

 

[the croucher]

Ah, that's not so good, unless he left Ballarat early that year and played football in Melbourne in 1926. It would be tricky if he is meant to have played for both Caulfield and Hawksburn (before going to St Kilda), however! I'm wondering if that is him on the electoral roll in Melbourne in 1927 at least (from previous post), as he was working as a labourer just a few years later:
View attachment 1124450

Yes, might be him in 1927...there is a Rose Hannah Brown at the same address that year and that could be his mother.

 

[the croucher]

<snip>
71 John "Joe" Albert Marchant b:11/9/1884 StKilda 1904
<snip>

Am puzzled by this entry...wonder where the name and date detail comes from...
Vic BDMs and Ancestry range of records return 0 hits on searches for the name,
and a check of 1884 showed no birth records for a male child with any variation of that name.

 

[GreyCrow]

Am puzzled by this entry...wonder where the name and date detail comes from...
Vic BDMs and Ancestry range of records return 0 hits on searches for the name,
and a check of 1884 showed no birth records for a male child with any variation of that name.

Nor any footballer mention. There is a Marchant trainer or patron but nothing more.

It's a back burner until more papers are digitised

 

[35Daicos]

Am puzzled by this entry...wonder where the name and date detail comes from...
Vic BDMs and Ancestry range of records return 0 hits on searches for the name,
and a check of 1884 showed no birth records for a male child with any variation of that name.

This could be the one they've gone for:

Marchant is named in the St Kilda squad the day before his one and only game:

I can't see anything anywhere that says where he's supposed to have come from (to play for St Kilda). Interestingly, The Encyclopedia just has him as Joseph Marchant.

 

[35Daicos]

Yes, might be him in 1927...there is a Rose Hannah Brown at the same address that year and that could be his mother.

This is very likely the future St Kilda player at Prahran in the pre-season of 1926, so that could be a major issue, given he must have been at Hawksburn the year before!:

 

[35Daicos]

I am 99% certain I have found where William F Leahy was after 1948. Have a shipping record of a William F Leahy 36 from South Africa born Australia

View attachment 450073

Line 16 , ticks all the boxes. Sailed Jan 2 1948 so any birth year would be 1911 not 1912. Lived in South Africa , nationality Australian born Melbourne. His mother lived in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe in 1948. Sadly I think he missed or escaped his mothers death by 2 weeks. I wonder if he stayed in the US or he returned to Bulawayo

It doesn't look like there's been any follow up to this post. You would have the right chap, and it seems he moved to South Africa to live quite a few years earlier:

But did he keep on living there, and where/when did he die? I can't see anything that helps, sadly.

 

[the croucher]

This could be the one they've gone for:
View attachment 1124590
Marchant is named in the St Kilda squad the day before his one and only game:
View attachment 1124602
I can't see anything anywhere that says where he's supposed to have come from (to play for St Kilda). Interestingly, The Encyclopedia just has him as Joseph Marchant.

Oh ! have come across potential problem...that child may have died on about 16 June 1886

NSW birth record: John A Marchant #22089/1884 father: JOHN A E E mother: ALICE
Reg District: WINDSOR

NSW death record: John Merchant # 10458/1886 father: JAMES mother: ALICE
Reg District: WINDSOR

James Marchant married Alice Smith in 1876
#3938/1876 groom: MARCHANT JAMES bride: SMITH ALICE J
Reg District: PENRITH

 

[35Daicos]

Oh ! have come across potential problem...that child may have died on about 16 June 1886

NSW birth record: John A Marchant #22089/1884 father: JOHN A E E mother: ALICE
Reg District: WINDSOR

NSW death record: John Merchant # 10458/1886 father: JAMES mother: ALICE
Reg District: WINDSOR

James Marchant married Alice Smith in 1876
#3938/1876 groom: MARCHANT JAMES bride: SMITH ALICE J
Reg District: PENRITH

That would rule him out for sure! It would be nice to know exactly where the AFL folks got John "Joe" Albert Marchant b:11/9/1884 from, as finding where he was born and where he came from is proving tricky enough, let alone when and where he died!

 

[the croucher]

Updated 13 January 2021


6 *Desmond 'Des' Clyde Bell b:23/5/1923 Melb 1946-1948 alive in 2016


36 *Gordon Stanley Green b:31/5/1925 NthMelb 1942 alive in 2017
68 *James "Jim" Malone b:13/11/1925 NthMelb 1945-52 still living as of March 29 2018


11 Henry "Harry" John Brown b:16/10/1903 St Kilda 1927
12 Samuel Otto John Buck b:15/11/1876 Carlton 1897
18 Jack Louis Cliff b:23/5/1919 StK 1940-42
21 Eugene Francis "Frank" Corby b:24/12/1924 Coll:1948
22 Frederick "Fred" Rowland Coulsell b:17/12/1905 Nth:1927,Ess 1931
23 Robert "Bobby" Ritchie Craig b:29/3/1882 Melb 1902
33 James "Jimmy" Gaynor b:17/5/1877 Carl 1904
34 Maxwell "Max" Herbert Glass b:2/10/1925 Sth 1945
39 Roger"Bill" Musgrove Hearn b:4/3/1914 Rich 1935
40 Edward "Ted" Page Heffernan b:16/5/1869 Carl 1897
49 Charles "Charlie" Herbert Jenkins b:17/6/1878 Fitz 1898


54 Edmund Kirwin b:31/3/1876 StKilda 1898
59 William "Billy" Francis Roy Leahy b:7/3/1911 Foots 1934-1936
60 Thomas "Tom" Francis Lee b:11/12/1874 Coll 1897-98
63 George Lockwood b:6/12/1872 Geel 1899-1901,Coll 1902-04
71 John "Joe" Albert Marchant b:11/9/1884 StKilda 1904
72 Joseph "Joe" Thomas Marr b:9/08/1880 Carlton1900-02, Ess:1903 Died Prior 1918
74 Charlie McCartney b:26/2/1874 SthMelb 1897,Ess 1899

76 Patrick "Paddy" John McDonald b:27/3/1897 Ess 1918-19
78 John "Jack" James McKenzie b:19/8/1908 Ess 1929
84 Alfred "Alf" Carl Frank Neeson b:15/6/1914 Fitz 1935-36, Haw 1936-38
87 Michael "Mick" Joseph O'Hagan b:22/1/1878 StK 1897
88 *George Henry Prismall b:10/3/1915 Ess 1935
89 *Robert "Bob" Reid b:8/6/1924 Footscray 1948-49
90 Samuel "Sam" Alexander Reid b:17/6/1872 Carlton 1897
94 Archibald Robinson b:9/7/1890 Richmond 1911
95 Raymond Paul Ross b:2/5/1900 Ess 1921
97 Alan James "Ginger" Ryan b:26/9/1909 Melb 1932-33,Coll 1934-38
103 James "Jim" William Smith b:11/2/1887 Sth 1906

110 James "Jim" Scott Sutherland b:10/5/1900 Sth 1924
116 *Albert "Alby" Joseph Williams b:3/8/1916 NthMelb 1943
117 William "Billy" Francis Williams b:2/5/1888 StKilda 1907
118 William "Bill" Henry Woods b:21/8/1890 Geelong 1909


13 *Alfred Joseph Callick b:14/8/1925 SthMelb 1943,1946-1950 passed away January 3 2021
7 *Ronald "Ron" Arthur Bickley b:21/10/1926 - 11/10/2020 Fitz 1949-1951
52 *Geoffrey John Kerr b:7/4/1925 Stk 1945;1947 26/5/2020

32 *Harry Leslie "Les" Gardner b:30/9/1923 StK 1947 alive 2014 passed away May 2019
53 *James "Jim" Francis Kirby b:21/12/1922 NthM 1946 passed away 24/8/1998 #post 796

75 *James "Jim" Kenneth McDonald b:24/6/1916 Melb 1942 To Be Confirmed
105 *Stanley Vincent Smith b:17/4/1925 Coll 1947-50 - listed in AFL Obits

James William McDonald has the same relationship as Alan - from the List Inaccuracy Thread #post 2450


Alf Callick noted in Recent Deaths thread

Perhaps we've reached a point with these names where it'd be useful for ourselves and future researchers to add an extra line under each...as per #88 for example

88 *George Henry Prismall b:10/3/1915 Ess 1935 probably dead
Merchant Navy in WW2, last known at Earls Court, London, England in 1948 (per electoral roll)

 

[Bandit55]

I was wondering whether Collingwood's Ray Thomas was related to South Melbourne's Keith Thomas. I didn't find an answer to that question, but it appears that Keith Thomas passed away on 27 October 2017:

https://tributes.bordermail.com.au/...ries/bordermail-au/search/?Query=Keith THOMAS

 

[the croucher]

<snip>

49 Charles "Charlie" Herbert Jenkins b:17/6/1878 Fitz 1898

<snip>

Unfortunately, errors in past VFL/AFL record keeping have had us chasing the wrong person !

The C. Jenkins who plays for Fitzroy in 1898 is

William Charles Jenkins (if details on Ancestry tree correct: DOB 21 Aug 1874, DOD 1 June 1956)
He was a brother to Ernest Jenkins, noted Fitzroy player of their early golden era. Their paternal grandmother's maiden name was Marrett.

Have attached a screenshot from Vic BDMs site showing the brothers with same parents, and copy of newspaper death notice for Frances Jenkins with Charles W in list of children [as still alive] and Ernest M (as deceased...which is true, he died in 1927)







A passing aside in a Trove article early in 1899 gave me the hint

 

[35Daicos]

He's Charles William here:

He may have called himself that even though his official name looks like it was William Charles:




This will be him heading to Fitzroy in 1894.
If this "official DOB" was correct (for the player) he'd have been only 15 at the time, which seems unlikely!:


From Pennings' Vol. 4:

Whether he joined Fitzroy from Collingwood Juniors or West Melbourne he could hardly have been seen as a "handy recruit" if he was only 15/16!

This does have a couple of players named Jenkins at Collingwood Juniors early in 1894, and that's very likely to be the two brothers:


This is probably Ern going to Richmond:

 

[the croucher]

Updated 13 January 2021

6 *Desmond 'Des' Clyde Bell b:23/5/1923 Melb 1946-1948 alive in 2016
<snip>

Have just checked Ryerson Index, Google, and Ancestry. There are no references to his death since 2016,
so perhaps this could be updated to read "believed to be still alive in May 2021"

 

[ThePope]

Have just checked Ryerson Index, Google, and Ancestry. There are no references to his death since 2016,
so perhaps this could be updated to read "believed to be still alive in May 2021"

I think unless we have concrete evidence of them being alive (interview, reference to him attending a function, contact by family member), I don't think we should ever use lack of a death notice as a presumption of still being alive. Obviously there are some high profile players who's death would be widely reported, but I don't think 7 game players like this fall into that category.