Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[WhiteHartLane23]

Charlie Jenkins, who has been mentioned in recent times in the DOD/DOB thread, is meant to have played the first eight games of 1898 for Fitzroy according to the records. But The Herald says of the Round 5 game against Geelong: "They play the same team as that which beat Melbourne, with the exception of C. Jenkins, who came out of a scrimmage last week with a kicked thigh." https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=18980603&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (Fri 3 June 1898)

Unfortunately, I haven't found anything in any of the papers that confirms he didn't actually play. I'm hoping something shows up (like a team lineup) one of these days that helps with this one.

This is one of those grey areas - The Argus the next week (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9837805) lists three changes: "Fitzroy entered the lists against Carlton without Potter, Cleary, and Drohan, the vacancies being filled by McEwan, Doherty, and McDougall" and mentions C. Jenkins later in the report which implies he might have played the previous week.

I went through a host of 1898 changes with Steve Rodgers a couple of years ago and this was one where the verdict was "no change"

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

New discrepancy - Fred Fontaine is recorded with birth and death dates of 15 July 1874 - 9 December 1957.

However, his death index record shows an estimated birth year of 1879:
Name: Frederick Ernest Fontaine
Birth Year: abt 1879
Age: 78
Death Place: Thornbury, Victoria
Registration Year: 1957
Registration Place: Victoria
Registration Number: 15079

and this matches the following birth record from 1878
Name: Frederick Ernest De La Fontaine
Birth Date: Abt 1878
Birth Place: Rich, Victoria
Registration Year: 1878
Registration Place: Victoria, Australia
Father: John Edward De La Fontaine
Mother: Phillipa Seymour
Registration Number: 4772

The only possible matching record for a 1874 Victorian birth is for a Francis Ernest Fontaine in Enochs Point (out past Marysville) who then dies in Fremantle on 6 Aug 1953 (see http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article49225138)

I think the correct birth date is 1878 - which makes sense for a playing career of 1898 - 1907.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Has anyone ever put together a database/ list of VFL permits and transfers?

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[GreyCrow]

Has anyone ever put together a database/ list of VFL permits and transfers?

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

I dont know of one and keep thinking of bookmarking all the permit notices I come across but never do

Interestingly this article states exactly why Permits became a serious issue http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10315620

The migration of players to Western Australia was becoming serious and steps should be taken to remedy the evil. At present if a man went to Western Australia and played there for a season he could return to Victoria and on producing the clearance from Western Australia get a permit to play with
whichever club he wished. He thought it should be necessary for that man to return to the club with which he originally played, or, failing that, produce a clearance from it. He thought they should consider that man a player of his old club for at least three years

 

[GreyCrow]

New discrepancy - Fred Fontaine is recorded with birth and death dates of 15 July 1874 - 9 December 1957.

However, his death index record shows an estimated birth year of 1879:
Name: Frederick Ernest Fontaine
Birth Year: abt 1879
Age: 78
Death Place: Thornbury, Victoria
Registration Year: 1957
Registration Place: Victoria
Registration Number: 15079

and this matches the following birth record from 1878
Name: Frederick Ernest De La Fontaine
Birth Date: Abt 1878
Birth Place: Rich, Victoria
Registration Year: 1878
Registration Place: Victoria, Australia
Father: John Edward De La Fontaine
Mother: Phillipa Seymour
Registration Number: 4772

The only possible matching record for a 1874 Victorian birth is for a Francis Ernest Fontaine in Enochs Point (out past Marysville) who then dies in Fremantle on 6 Aug 1953 (see http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article49225138)

I think the correct birth date is 1878 - which makes sense for a playing career of 1898 - 1907.

Interesting post I spotted on my wanders

From 2014

How's this for a reference. In the Australasian of 15 april 1911 at page 57, there is an advertisement for Doan's Back Ache Kidney Pills with a testimonial from a male called Mr F E Fontaine of 555 Station Street Carlton which says " I am a cyclist and footballer and should do a lot of training but this backache prevented me from doing it.............After a time I was cured"

Comical but easily verified by looking at an electoral roll.

A Fontaine was listed as playing for Fitzroy in a match report in the Australasian of 10 August 1907 at page 23. There are numerous other mentions of him in 1907.

Then was a reference to a F Fontaine as also being a cricketer in the Referee of 8 April 1908 at page 8 where it was said he was a "famous Fitzroy Footballer".

Then in 1909 there is a reference in a cycling report of a prize being given by Fred Fontaine, the well known Fitzroy footballer of the Tartan Cycle Works (17 May 1909 Argus at page 4).

Fred Fontaine the fitzroy Footballer was 36 in 1911 so in all likelihood was probably training with Melbourne and they probably went with younger players.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Interesting post I spotted on my wanders

...and here he is in 1903 electoral roll (by 1909 he had moved to High St Northcote) - Frederick Ernest Fontaine

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

I dont know of one and keep thinking of bookmarking all the permit notices I come across but never do

Interestingly this article states exactly why Permits became a serious issue http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10315620

The migration of players to Western Australia was becoming serious and steps should be taken to remedy the evil. At present if a man went to Western Australia and played there for a season he could return to Victoria and on producing the clearance from Western Australia get a permit to play with
whichever club he wished. He thought it should be necessary for that man to return to the club with which he originally played, or, failing that, produce a clearance from it. He thought they should consider that man a player of his old club for at least three years

I have been copying permit and transfer records at thed AFL Office from Col and Steve late last year and thinking of putting them into an online searchable index. I have spoken to Col and he is supportive.

Any tips or suggestions?

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[GreyCrow]

I have been copying permit and transfer records at thed AFL Office from Col and Steve late last year and thinking of putting them into an online searchable index. I have spoken to Col and he is supportive.

Any tips or suggestions?

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

I am the last one to give Tech advice. I am sure there are many more smarter than I

 

[the croucher]

General comment.

For quite a few years now the official AFL Historian & Statistician has been Cameron Sinclair.
He does exist 'cos I met him at AFL headquarters a few years ago when researching
the very dubious Best & Fairest lists compiled by various clubs.

I wonder why his name never gets mentioned in this thread -
after all, in the position he supposedly holds, he "officially" should be the one signing off on the changes we've highlighted.

 

[35Daicos]

I have been copying permit and transfer records at thed AFL Office from Col and Steve late last year and thinking of putting them into an online searchable index. I have spoken to Col and he is supportive.

Any tips or suggestions?

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

I don't have any tips or suggestions, but if you can make this happen it would be a wonderful thing!

 

[ThePope]

General comment.

For quite a few years now the official AFL Historian & Statistician has been Cameron Sinclair.
He does exist 'cos I met him at AFL headquarters a few years ago when researching
the very dubious Best & Fairest lists compiled by various clubs.

I wonder why his name never gets mentioned in this thread -
after all, in the position he supposedly holds, he "officially" should be the one signing off on the changes we've highlighted.

We have 4 virtually compete public data sets, in addition to various club based data sets or private lists: the printed AFL Players Encyclopedias, AustralianFootball.Com, afltables.com and Wikipedia. All have their positives and negatives, in terms of accuracy, accessibility, ability to update and reliability.

But none are really official.

It would be great if the AFL, via Sinclair, Hutchison, Rogers or whoever, would publish an official list, or work hand in hand with another site, to make one source the definitive, best info known to date, official record, rather than the situation that we have now. But whatever they do, it should be built up from the game by game data, not just lists of players.

I assume that when we get the email responses from Stephen Rogers via Rhett or others, that's got Sinclair's approval.

 

[35Daicos]

I haven't seen this topic brought up anywhere, yet this doesn't look right to me:-

Collingwood's Dick Lee is in the records as having scored 58 goals in 1910, making him the Leading Goalkicker (at end of finals). He kicked 13 of those goals in the 3 finals that he played (6, 3, 4). Yet the AFL records have him with 51 goals in the H&A series, the same amount as Geelong's Percy Martini (who didn't play finals). Lee and Martini were retrospectively awarded Leading Goalkicker Medals (Coleman Medal equivalent) for 1910 in 2004.

AFL Tables seems to have it right, showing just Martini as the Leading Goalkicker (Home & Away) with 51 goals, and Lee as Leading Goalkicker (Complete) with 58:- https://afltables.com/afl/stats/alltime/leadinggk.html ||| https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/D/Dick_Lee.html

Any other sources I've looked at, including the AFL Record Season Guide, have Lee and Martini sharing the (H&A) award on 51 goals apiece:-
http://www.afl.com.au/stats/awards/coleman-medal

Wikipedia has Lee and Martini on 51 H&A goals, but Lee with 64 for the full year (51+13):- https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Coleman_Medal

This shows the League Goalkickers tally after Rd. 18, with Martini on 51 and Lee with 45:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10458238 (5 Sep 1910)

Lee should have been on 45 goals at the end of the H&A season, and it looks as if the 6 goals he scored against Essendon a week later in the Semi Final was added to his (H&A) tally, when it surely should not have been.

 

[the croucher]

I haven't seen this topic brought up anywhere, yet this doesn't look right to me:-

Collingwood's Dick Lee is in the records as having scored 58 goals in 1910, making him the Leading Goalkicker (at end of finals). He kicked 13 of those goals in the 3 finals that he played (6, 3, 4). Yet the AFL records have him with 51 goals in the H&A series, the same amount as Geelong's Percy Martini (who didn't play finals). Lee and Martini were retrospectively awarded Leading Goalkicker Medals (Coleman Medal equivalent) for 1910 in 2004.

AFL Tables seems to have it right, showing just Martini as the Leading Goalkicker (Home & Away) with 51 goals, and Lee as Leading Goalkicker (Complete) with 58:- https://afltables.com/afl/stats/alltime/leadinggk.html ||| https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/D/Dick_Lee.html

Any other sources I've looked at, including the AFL Record Season Guide, have Lee and Martini sharing the (H&A) award on 51 goals apiece:-
http://www.afl.com.au/stats/awards/coleman-medal

Wikipedia has Lee and Martini on 51 H&A goals, but Lee with 64 for the full year (51+13):- https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Coleman_Medal

This shows the League Goalkickers tally after Rd. 18, with Martini on 51 and Lee with 45:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10458238 (5 Sep 1910)

Lee should have been on 45 goals at the end of the H&A season, and it looks as if the 6 goals he scored against Essendon a week later in the Semi Final was added to his (H&A) tally, when it surely should not have been.

Good find !

I've corrected a couple of the Wiki pages to reflect your info.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

I haven't seen this topic brought up anywhere, yet this doesn't look right to me:-

Collingwood's Dick Lee is in the records as having scored 58 goals in 1910, making him the Leading Goalkicker (at end of finals). He kicked 13 of those goals in the 3 finals that he played (6, 3, 4). Yet the AFL records have him with 51 goals in the H&A series, the same amount as Geelong's Percy Martini (who didn't play finals). Lee and Martini were retrospectively awarded Leading Goalkicker Medals (Coleman Medal equivalent) for 1910 in 2004.

AFL Tables seems to have it right, showing just Martini as the Leading Goalkicker (Home & Away) with 51 goals, and Lee as Leading Goalkicker (Complete) with 58:- https://afltables.com/afl/stats/alltime/leadinggk.html ||| https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/D/Dick_Lee.html

Any other sources I've looked at, including the AFL Record Season Guide, have Lee and Martini sharing the (H&A) award on 51 goals apiece:-
http://www.afl.com.au/stats/awards/coleman-medal

Wikipedia has Lee and Martini on 51 H&A goals, but Lee with 64 for the full year (51+13):- https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Coleman_Medal

This shows the League Goalkickers tally after Rd. 18, with Martini on 51 and Lee with 45:- https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10458238 (5 Sep 1910)

Lee should have been on 45 goals at the end of the H&A season, and it looks as if the 6 goals he scored against Essendon a week later in the Semi Final was added to his (H&A) tally, when it surely should not have been.

Interesting ......
Have got the club historian and statistician looking into it as well. I might be in AFL in next week or so and will ask Col and Steve to check as well.

 

[35Daicos]

Interesting ......
Have got the club historian and statistician looking into it as well. I might be in AFL in next week or so and will ask Col and Steve to check as well.

Thanks. Let us know what they come up with. I was going to send an email to the AFL guys but as long as you're happy to do that I'll wait to hear something from you.

 

[35Daicos]

We have 4 virtually compete public data sets, in addition to various club based data sets or private lists: the printed AFL Players Encyclopedias, AustralianFootball.Com, afltables.com and Wikipedia. All have their positives and negatives, in terms of accuracy, accessibility, ability to update and reliability.

But none are really official.

It would be great if the AFL, via Sinclair, Hutchison, Rogers or whoever, would publish an official list, or work hand in hand with another site, to make one source the definitive, best info known to date, official record, rather than the situation that we have now. But whatever they do, it should be built up from the game by game data, not just lists of players.

I assume that when we get the email responses from Stephen Rogers via Rhett or others, that's got Sinclair's approval.

I certainly agree with this, and imagine that most of the people who hang around this thread/board would as well. It was bitterly disappointing when the AFL Historical Statistics website closed down/disappeared from public view. To have access to such a wonderful resource, then see it taken away, was hard to take. With that site, they presumably just made changes anytime errors were found, and it would not have been easy to keep track of them. Yet you could still (at all times I'd say) get an up-to-date version of how things were in the official records. This is pretty definitely not the case now.

Surely the AFL Stats/History guys could have a webpage where all officially acknowledged changes to the records can be displayed. I don't see why they wouldn't be prepared to do this. The AFL Record Season (Guide) has such a page, where you can see all the errors that have been found in the latest issue. Currently we have a situation where the likes of the folks from AustralianFootball.com, afltables.com etc. have to watch threads like this, or rely on people to notify them of any changes/errors in the official records. It's highly likely that some important stuff gets missed!

I do think the AFL Stats folks should help out here. Those who run the websites where this sort of information is displayed obviously put in a huge amount of time and effort, and there are certainly plenty of people around here who do plenty as well, so I think it would be fair enough if they (AFL) were prepared to make some of this really important information available to the public (again).

 

[rbartlett]

I preface this by saying I haven't done any indepth research, and only came across it while searching for something else.
So there is a possibility the articles at the time were simply wrong, or I'm missing something obvious.

1a
AFLTables has Dick Lee kicking 57 goals in 1914, (they didn't play finals), and 48 goals in 1916. (46 up to end of H+A, plus 2 in the SF game)
The article from 1916 Ballarat Echo, September 8th, which has just been digitised; lists at end of 1916 season Dick Lee him on 47 goals
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241406303

Another article by 'Onlooker' lists 47 goals as well for Dick Lee in 1916. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article121178424

1b
It also lists Lee's other goal feats in previous season and lists 59 goals for 1914.


2.
The Ballarat Echo article above also has the remaining 1916 goalkickers as:
Vin Gardner - 43 (AFL Tables has him at 44)
T Heaney - 27 (AFL Tables has him at 27)
J Freak - 22 (AFL Tables has him at 20 )
T Martini - 22 (AFL Tables has him at 22)

 

[Supermercado]

I have been copying permit and transfer records at thed AFL Office from Col and Steve late last year and thinking of putting them into an online searchable index. I have spoken to Col and he is supportive.

Any tips or suggestions?

Quadruple endorse this, it's something I've always wanted to do. Tikiwiki is good but you need to install it on hosted space (or find somebody smart to do it like I did). Another option for a Wikipedia style set-up is wikia.com but it's ugly AF.

If you don't get around to the full uploads would be happy to host MFC related ones @ Demonwiki

 

[rbartlett]

I am the last one to give Tech advice. I am sure there are many more smarter than I

Another option is to put it into an excel document with headings like SURNAME, FIRST, CURRENT CLUB, TO CLUB , DATE etc
And then that can be embedded into the forum I believe.

Or simply save that spreadsheet into a Dropbox Account, and send out a direct link for people to access it (people don't need a dropbox account to view the document, they only need the link you send out).
I have a dropbox account should you want me to host it.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

I certainly agree with this, and imagine that most of the people who hang around this thread/board would as well. It was bitterly disappointing when the AFL Historical Statistics website closed down/disappeared from public view. To have access to such a wonderful resource, then see it taken away, was hard to take. With that site, they presumably just made changes anytime errors were found, and it would not have been easy to keep track of them. Yet you could still (at all times I'd say) get an up-to-date version of how things were in the official records. This is pretty definitely not the case now.

Surely the AFL Stats/History guys could have a webpage where all officially acknowledged changes to the records can be displayed. I don't see why they wouldn't be prepared to do this. The AFL Record Season (Guide) has such a page, where you can see all the errors that have been found in the latest issue. Currently we have a situation where the likes of the folks from AustralianFootball.com, afltables.com etc. have to watch threads like this, or rely on people to notify them of any changes/errors in the official records. It's highly likely that some important stuff gets missed!

I do think the AFL Stats folks should help out here. Those who run the websites where this sort of information is displayed obviously put in a huge amount of time and effort, and there are certainly plenty of people around here who do plenty as well, so I think it would be fair enough if they (AFL) were prepared to make some of this really important information available to the public (again).

I spoke to Col about this issue last year and it was a withdrawal of funding that closed their website (much to his disappointment). But then, once other private sources were created to take over that space the AFL were happy to leave it be.

Col still maintains a spreadsheet of official AFL stats which he uses to produce those magnificent conundrums like "the score at half time in the 2016 grand final was exactly the same score as in the 1937 grand final and both major goalkickers had played only 10 games, and how many times that had occurred".

I think he would love to have more of an official stats webpage but it is not an AFL priority these days apparently.

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Confirmed that AFL and Collingwood official stats both say Lee had 48 goals in 1916 (46 + 2 in finals) and 57 goals in 1914, which match AFLTables, Argus and Football Record.
Suggest the reported discrepancies which are based on newspaper reports are in error.

On [device_name] using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[GreyCrow]

Once again this is not meant to deride nor cause hurt but to inform.

95 Raymond Paul Ross b:2/5/1900 Ess 1921

Keep chasing this person up and cant find much mention. I see a lot of mention of Raymond Robert Ross of Broadford. Listed as playing 1 game each for Richmond and St Kilda. This leads to a question for rbartlett

On your Tigerland site your bio for Ray Robert also includes 1 game for Essendon in 1921 which is credited to Raymond Paul. Indeed the Trove records suggest R Ross was an Essendon junior ( only Ross used ) I cant find clearances or much mention of Ross (Essendon)

Indeed RR Ross is mentioned as coming from Broadford in this piece http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article184798978

From Tigerland https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=Ray+Ross
BIOGRAPHY
Ray was a rover and wingman. His only game for Richmond was in the last round of 1922 against St.Kilda. The following week he returned to Broadford to play in their Finals’ matches. He also played with Essendon in 1921 and St.Kilda in 1929.

PRE RICHMOND
St Paul's Ascot Vale 1919 ; Essendon Reserves 1920-21 ; Essendon Seniors 1921, Games 8 Goals 7).


POST RICHMOND
Broadford 1923-28 ( Honours - Premiership 1924 ) ; St Kilda 1929, Games 1, Goals 0.

This article suggest RR Ross was playing for Broadford since 1919 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article223840768

Broad ford's Veteran Ross
It was fortunate for Broadford that the veteran Ray Ross decided not to retire from football, as he had . originally intended. He was elected captain of the
team, most of the members of which work at the paper mills, and has set his men a good example in each game. A few years ago "Rossie" was probably the j
best rover in the Waranga-North Eastern. and now, in spite of his stoutness, he can still hold his own with the best of them. Whether on the ball or forward,
his tear-through tactics are very effective. He has given Broadford wonderful service for approximately 15 years. |

Broadford at Seymour 1920 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60434733

The 1920 season for R Ross Broadford is painted broadly enough in the Broadford Courier in 1920 to suggest strongly he wasnt at Essendon Juniors.

Broadford Juniors 1918 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article64156225

So , for mine Raymond Robert Ross needs to be tidied up at Tigerland.

----------------------------

Ross who played juniors at Essendon http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1770100

Herald Sun not online has a para

... felt in the air. He and Ross rucked well at Carlton. Brownless was also a hard workor. Thomas did well ... the team. Ross, an Essendon junior, and Collins have been selected. Reardon, Tandy, Wootton and Brown ... 2508 words

--------------------

Apart from that nothing to identify Ross as RP Ross

Raymond P Ross Jeweller in September 1921. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4649381

----------------

Further to this on the DOD thread for consideration

 

[35Daicos]

Once again this is not meant to deride nor cause hurt but to inform.


Keep chasing this person up and cant find much mention. I see a lot of mention of Raymond Robert Ross of Broadford. Listed as playing 1 game each for Richmond and St Kilda. This leads to a question for rbartlett

On your Tigerland site your bio for Ray Robert also includes 1 game for Essendon in 1921 which is credited to Raymond Paul. Indeed the Trove records suggest R Ross was an Essendon junior ( only Ross used ) I cant find clearances or much mention of Ross (Essendon)

Indeed RR Ross is mentioned as coming from Broadford in this piece http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article184798978

From Tigerland https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=Ray+Ross
BIOGRAPHY
Ray was a rover and wingman. His only game for Richmond was in the last round of 1922 against St.Kilda. The following week he returned to Broadford to play in their Finals’ matches. He also played with Essendon in 1921 and St.Kilda in 1929.

PRE RICHMOND
St Paul's Ascot Vale 1919 ; Essendon Reserves 1920-21 ; Essendon Seniors 1921, Games 8 Goals 7).


POST RICHMOND
Broadford 1923-28 ( Honours - Premiership 1924 ) ; St Kilda 1929, Games 1, Goals 0.

This article suggest RR Ross was playing for Broadford since 1919 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article223840768

Broad ford's Veteran Ross
It was fortunate for Broadford that the veteran Ray Ross decided not to retire from football, as he had . originally intended. He was elected captain of the
team, most of the members of which work at the paper mills, and has set his men a good example in each game. A few years ago "Rossie" was probably the j
best rover in the Waranga-North Eastern. and now, in spite of his stoutness, he can still hold his own with the best of them. Whether on the ball or forward,
his tear-through tactics are very effective. He has given Broadford wonderful service for approximately 15 years. |

Broadford at Seymour 1920 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60434733

The 1920 season for R Ross Broadford is painted broadly enough in the Broadford Courier in 1920 to suggest strongly he wasnt at Essendon Juniors.

Broadford Juniors 1918 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article64156225

So , for mine Raymond Robert Ross needs to be tidied up at Tigerland.

----------------------------

Ross who played juniors at Essendon http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article1770100

Herald Sun not online has a para

... felt in the air. He and Ross rucked well at Carlton. Brownless was also a hard workor. Thomas did well ... the team. Ross, an Essendon junior, and Collins have been selected. Reardon, Tandy, Wootton and Brown ... 2508 words

--------------------

Apart from that nothing to identify Ross as RP Ross

Raymond P Ross Jeweller in September 1921. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4649381

----------------

Further to this on the DOD thread for consideration

There's a permit for R. Ross going from Essendon to North Melbourne in the Football Record, Rd. 4 1922 (page 28).

Also one for R. Ross from Broadford to Richmond in the Football Record, Rd. 8 1922 (page 25).

There's a bit about this topic here which may be useful if you haven't looked at it lately:-
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...gue-players-afl.1172997/page-15#post-53314926
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...gue-players-afl.1172997/page-15#post-53345844

 

[GreyCrow]

There's a permit for R. Ross going from Essendon to North Melbourne in the Football Record, Rd. 4 1922 (page 28).

Also one for R. Ross from Broadford to Richmond in the Football Record, Rd. 8 1922 (page 25).

There's a bit about this topic here which may be useful if you haven't looked at it lately:-
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...gue-players-afl.1172997/page-15#post-53314926
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...gue-players-afl.1172997/page-15#post-53345844

Thank you. I just noticed Tigerland still had the mix up so posted from that. I have been trying to chase RP Ross down and figured I should put it in order to see how it fell.

 

[35Daicos]

Thank you. I just noticed Tigerland still had the mix up so posted from that. I have been trying to chase RP Ross down and figured I should put it in order to see how it fell.

Also, the Essendon player (Raymond Paul Ross) was said to be from St. Paul's Ascot Vale according to "The Encyclopedia", and the same thing was said in the Football Record (Rd. 15 2014 page 70):- "Ray Ross learned his football skills at St Pauls, Ascot Vale, before signing with Essendon in 1921. Aged 21 and wearing the No. 30 guernsey, he contributed seven goals in his eight senior games in his one season at the highest level."

The article about the jeweller Raymond P Ross does give his middle name as Pierce, BTW.