Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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the croucher said:
Rhett perhaps this could be added to the spreadsheet.
Click to expand...

Cheers, thanks.
Let me run it past WhiteHartLane23 cause I notice he's been re-working the spreadsheet so I don't want to overstep or stuff anything up from a design point of view. .
There are entries from the last page or so that need to be added, so I'll check in and see the best approach.
 
Oh dear, earlier tonight discovered another howler which appears to have been in print for decades !

Most records (e.g. AFL Season Guide, AFL Tables & australianfootball.com, Essendon FC history books, and the club website)
show Frank Maher as Essendon coach in 1925 and 1926. Wrong. It appears that Syd Barker snr was coach for those years.

Over next day or so I'll try and check the two seasons match-by-match just to clarify that he was coach for each game.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243770845
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184820595
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244052528
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/202209530
 

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the croucher said:
Oh dear, earlier tonight discovered another howler which appears to have been in print for decades !

Most records (e.g. AFL Season Guide, AFL Tables & australianfootball.com, Essendon FC history books, and the club website)
show Frank Maher as Essendon coach in 1925 and 1926. Wrong. It appears that Syd Barker snr was coach for those years.

Over next day or so I'll try and check the two seasons match-by-match just to clarify that he was coach for each game.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243770845
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184820595
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244052528
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/202209530
Click to expand...
Excellent find! Just an amazing situation, this one!
 
I admit to being a bit non-plussed about what I have been finding about coaches in the last 24 hours or so.

Not only do we have the 1925/26 S Barker/ F Maher mix-up at Essendon mentioned in an earlier post, there is now a need to review Footscray in 1934. Some sites incorrectly show A Morrison for some early season matches - he was suspended for six weeks after Rnd 1 so couldn't be coach until Rnd 8. It seems that W Cubbins as officially appointed coach for the season should be listed for those early matches, and A. Hopkins is acting coach for at least Rnd 7.

And the list for Fitzroy needs amending - official coach at start of 1920 season was Jim Toohey, not Percy Parratt.
Need to review whether Toohey only had Rnd 1 in that role. He was at Prahran by Rnd 4.

I thought I'd covered the "who was coach that game" subject fairly thoroughly in recent years. Obviously not !
 
rbartlett said:
Cheers, thanks.
Let me run it past WhiteHartLane23 cause I notice he's been re-working the spreadsheet so I don't want to overstep or stuff anything up from a design point of view. .
There are entries from the last page or so that need to be added, so I'll check in and see the best approach.
Click to expand...
Hopefully all added now - we are nearly up to 200 changes in the spreadsheet!!!
 
WhiteHartLane23 said:
Archie Pratt (17 January 1879 – 24 September 1962) played for South Melbourne, St Kilda and Melbourne in 1905, 1906 and 1910 (and apparently Northcote in between)

The dates of birth/death are those of Archibald Thomas Pratt, born in Maitland NSW and died in Hornsby, NSW
Looking on Ancestry though, this man was a chemist and is listed in Sands directories as living in NSW during the time he was supposedly playing football, he had a daughter in NSW in 1910 and appears in news articles such as http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article229657063

I can't see how he can be the player and propose Archibald Herbert Pratt (1882-1941) as a far more likely candidate
From Vic Police Reports in 1918
View attachment 568541
and 1919 census record has Archibald Herbert Pratt at this address
View attachment 568543
Click to expand...

Have found death notice for A H Pratt, his DOD being 29 August 1941
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/...1941|||l-category=Family+Notices|||l-month=8#
 
the croucher said:
Have found death notice for A H Pratt, his DOD being 29 August 1941
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/245618144?searchTerm=pratt &searchLimits=l-decade=194|||l-state=Victoria|||l-year=1941|||l-category=Family+Notices|||l-month=8#
Click to expand...
As a guide that Archibald born in Abbotsford died Heidelberg From DC , Birth Cert says born Coll. I cant tell the difference.

But also Pratt that played 1905 came from South Ballarat http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9907372

And he came from Prahran http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article210153093
Clearance to http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article210152526
 
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The records have Bob Rahilly playing for Fitzroy in the 1910 Rd. 6 game against Collingwood, but it looks highly likely that he didn't play, and that George Holden did.

The Herald (post-match) says "Walker, Newbound and Rahilly, who are on the injured list, were out of the Fitzroy team", and names Holden and not Rahilly in the side. Holden is mentioned twice in the match report as well. For the next week's game Rahilly is not mentioned as an "out", nor Holden as an "in" - he is named in the team.

The Age match report says Rahilly wasn't playing. The Australasian named Holden as one of Fitzroy's better players. The Leader also says Rahilly didn't play.

While Rahilly is not named in the (official) line-up for the Rd. 7 game, Holden is; in fact the Rd. 6 game is the only game all year where he's not named in the team.
 
35Daicos said:
The records have Bob Rahilly playing for Fitzroy in the 1910 Rd. 6 game against Collingwood, but it looks highly likely that he didn't play, and that George Holden did.

The Herald (post-match) says "Walker, Newbound and Rahilly, who are on the injured list, were out of the Fitzroy team", and names Holden and not Rahilly in the side. Holden is mentioned twice in the match report as well. For the next week's game Rahilly is not mentioned as an "out", nor Holden as an "in" - he is named in the team.

The Age match report says Rahilly wasn't playing. The Australasian named Holden as one of Fitzroy's better players. The Leader also says Rahilly didn't play.

While Rahilly is not named in the (official) line-up for the Rd. 7 game, Holden is; in fact the Rd. 6 game is the only game all year where he's not named in the team.
Click to expand...

Looks a pretty convincing set of refs to me, so yes, Rahilly out - Holden in.
 
This is very puzzling! While the official records have Horrie Jones playing for Collingwood in the 1910 Rd. 7 game against Richmond, he perhaps did not play, and Smith (an unknown player) may have taken his place. There must be some chance that Jones (or more likely another player) was using Smith as an alias, but I'm just not sure what to make of this!

The Herald says "Collingwood were wlthout the services of Glbb, Sadler, and Jones, who are on the injured list. Rowell, Jackson, and Harper (Port Melbourne) filled the vacancies." They name Smith in the line-up. A week later The Herald has Jones coming back into the side (vs. University) to fill one of four vacancies (no mention of Smith).

The Age names Smith as one of the best players. Given that he should have been making his debut, it's rather odd they don't mention that. The Argus (day before the game) names Jones as one of the many Collingwood players with an injury, but doesn't seem to rule him out entirely. The following Friday it says "Jones, Daykin, M'Dougall, and Heatley are training again, but they are not yet in team, though some of them may have to be pressed into the service to-morrow." The Australasian has Jones returning to the side a week later as well.

There seems to be enough evidence that Jones did not play in Rd. 7, but if Smith took his place why is nothing much said about him?! I just might be missing something simple here, so if anyone wants to dig further into this one, please go ahead!!
 
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The records don't have Arthur Newbound in the 1910 Rd. 8 Fitzroy line-up for their game against Melbourne, but it seems almost certain that he played. Andy Pattison seems to have played as well, with two of McLennan and Milne, Marchbank or Morrison not playing (of those in the official team)!

The Herald says "Fitzroy had in Farrell and Newbound in place of Jenkins and Brophy." Newbound is named in the team, but unfortunately they make a real mess of it, because they don't name Lenne and Porter (who are in the official side) yet they have them among the goalscorers. Patterson/Pattison is named in the line-up, McLennan and Morrison are as well. Newbound gets a couple of mentions in the match report.
upload_2018-11-22_2-38-15.png

The Age says Fitzroy "were without Jenkins, Brophy, Morrison and M'Lellan. Bartlett, from Northcote, Newbound, Farrell and Rahilly filled the vacancies."
From The Argus: "Fitzroy were considerably weakened by the absence of Walker, McLennan, Marchbank, and Sharp. The vacancies were filled by Rahilly, Farrell, Newbound, Bartlett, and Porter." Patterson/Pattison gets a mention in the match report. The Australasian also has McLennan and Marchbank as not playing, and Pattison is named in the best players.

The Weekly Times named Newbound in the best players. It also had Briggs with 3 goals (not 2), The Herald had the same tally (with Drew 1, not 2). The Age had Briggs scoring 3 goals, so this is another issue worth looking into.

The Herald has Milne and McLennan "filling vacancies" the following week (vs. South Melbourne). They have Marchbank and Morrison in the side. They again have Briggs with 3 goals for this game (not 2). The Argus says Milne and McLennan reappeared.

So Newbound and Pattison (almost certainly) need to come in, while McLennan and either Milne, Marchbank or Morrison to go out!! I'm pretty confident about the 'ins', not at all sure about the 'outs'. The Herald making obvious mistakes with the line-ups two weeks in a row makes it difficult. So once again, if someone else wants to have a look at this, please do!!
 
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35Daicos said:
<snip>

The Weekly Times named Newbound in the best players. It also had Briggs with 3 goals (not 2), The Herald had the same tally (with Drew 1, not 2). The Age had Briggs scoring 3 goals, so this is another issue worth looking into.

The Herald has Milne and McLennan "filling vacancies" the following week (vs. South Melbourne). They have Marchbank and Morrison in the side. They again have Briggs with 3 goals for this game (not 2). The Argus says Milne and McLennan reappeared.

<snip>
Click to expand...

At the end of August 1910, after Briggs has kicked his final goal for the season, his overall tally in The Argus is shown as 31,
not 30 as in current official records, so the goalkicking details certainly need further checking, let alone the player change issues.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10456419/363684
 
Just something to keep in mind.
If in your future research you come across whether a player was a right footer, or left footer, the AFL is also after those details as well. And I think worth putting in the spreadsheet.
Particularly for early players.
An example, this photo of Barney Herbert shows him kicking a set shot with his right-foot

(we know in much later decades players were skillful on both sides of their body, and in that case, for instance when I've interviewed them, we've asked them 'if you were lining up for a set shot, which foot would you kick with')
 
Supermercado said:
In 1907 you had to write into the paper if you suspected the records were inaccurate

View attachment 588658
Click to expand...

Neither here nor there really, but I was wondering which papers HAD credited Caine with a goal.
None of the major dailies or weeklies such as Argus, Age, Herald or Australasian appear to do so.
Assume therefore that it must have been a suburban paper or two.
 
Looks like we have another correction to make in goalkicking lists.

1926 Rnd 9 for Geelong v Fitzroy
present records show C Rankin 6, A Rayson 3
https://australianfootball.com/game/view/2340
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1926/060919260626.html

but looks as if it should be Rankin 5, Rayson 4
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/232266334


The VFL Record for Round 10 matches certainly has the list of goalkickers [up to end of Rnd 9] with the 5/4 set recognised as true rather than 6/3
 
the croucher said:
Looks like we have another correction to make in goalkicking lists.

1926 Rnd 9 for Geelong v Fitzroy
present records show C Rankin 6, A Rayson 3
https://australianfootball.com/game/view/2340
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1926/060919260626.html

but looks as if it should be Rankin 5, Rayson 4
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/232266334


The VFL Record for Round 10 matches certainly has the list of goalkickers [up to end of Rnd 9] with the 5/4 set recognised as true rather than 6/3
Click to expand...
Given that Cliff Rankin has an official career goals tally of 400 a change would be reasonably significant!
 
Oliver Gigacz said:
Hi Guys,

Just letting you know that Serials #21, 22, 29 & 30 as well as the DOB/D for Bill Ahern have been updated on AF.
<snip>
https://australianfootball.com/players/player/bill+ahern/17272
Click to expand...

re: Ahern: Well done on the research to find life-span details for this person.

I wonder where his ht/wgt details come from - WW1 service records (when he is almost 49yrs old) ?
If so, then figures need a little tweaking I think. "5ft 7.5in" is about 171cm, not 170 and "135lbs" is about 61kg, not 64.

And most importantly of all, what evidence is there that he even played in Rnd 1 1897 ?
If he did play that day (8 May 1897), he should be entered on the list of oldest players to make debut (32yrs 67 days for him ?)
 
GreyCrow said:
Is that from the Irish records I supplied?
Click to expand...
the croucher said:
re: Ahern: Well done on the research to find life-span details for this person.

I wonder where his ht/wgt details come from - WW1 service records (when he is almost 49yrs old) ?
If so, then figures need a little tweaking I think. "5ft 7.5in" is about 171cm, not 170 and "135lbs" is about 61kg, not 64.

And most importantly of all, what evidence is there that he even played in Rnd 1 1897 ?
If he did play that day (8 May 1897), he should be entered on the list of oldest players to make debut (32yrs 67 days for him ?)
Click to expand...
I got the details from Stephen Rodgers at AFL as a confirmed change yesterday and passed them on
GreyCrow - yes this came from the Irish records you supplied - born in County Cork, Ireland
the croucher - I didn't send height / weight details to Oliver Gigacz so these are probably what was there previously and should be updated with the figures you provided

As far as whether he definitely played or not, I think the official position is he will continue to be credited with this game unless clear evidence to the contrary is found - I believe he is named in the original handwritten compilation of records (totally understand this is not a primary source but it seems to be the best we have at this time)
 

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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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