Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

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Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...
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Thread Rules:
Gethelred said:
Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:
  • direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
  • deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
  • abuse.
  • attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
  • If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
  • Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.
Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
15 points - 3 weeks off
20 points - Account banned.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.
Click to expand...
Play nicely, all.
 
Last edited:
ams4crows said:
It's just utterly devastating what's happening in Gaza and it seems pretty obvious this won't stop until they eradicate all the Palestinians in Gaza, they'll then seize the land and start rebuilding it with help from the US who will invest Billions, Jared Kushner himself is already imagining the 20 story high luxury hotels and apartments complexes he's gonna build on Mediterranean beach front land, it'll become a holiday destination spot, they will also build a canal ala the Suez canal that the US companies will have free thoroughfare for.

The sad thing is no one in the world can stop them even if they wanted to, the US have already threatened the ICC, if any Arab nations threaten them the US will say try your luck.

Legitimately the only thing that can stop it is a revolution in America, an uprising from the American people and that just isn't going to happen.
Click to expand...
So do we change the inscriptions on every cenotaph in Australia from Palestine to Israel?
 
ams4crows said:
It's just utterly devastating what's happening in Gaza and it seems pretty obvious this won't stop until they eradicate all the Palestinians in Gaza, they'll then seize the land and start rebuilding it with help from the US who will invest Billions, Jared Kushner himself is already imagining the 20 story high luxury hotels and apartments complexes he's gonna build on Mediterranean beach front land, it'll become a holiday destination spot, they will also build a canal ala the Suez canal that the US companies will have free thoroughfare for.

The sad thing is no one in the world can stop them even if they wanted to, the US have already threatened the ICC, if any Arab nations threaten them the US will say try your luck.

Legitimately the only thing that can stop it is a revolution in America, an uprising from the American people and that just isn't going to happen.
Click to expand...

They’ll stop when they give back the hostages and surrender. There are options.
 

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Boston tiger said:
They’ll stop when they give back the hostages and surrender. There are options.
Click to expand...
They seemed to be having a good go at it when there were no hostages.
 
ams4crows said:
It's just utterly devastating what's happening in Gaza and it seems pretty obvious this won't stop until they eradicate all the Palestinians in Gaza, they'll then seize the land and start rebuilding it with help from the US who will invest Billions, Jared Kushner himself is already imagining the 20 story high luxury hotels and apartments complexes he's gonna build on Mediterranean beach front land, it'll become a holiday destination spot, they will also build a canal ala the Suez canal that the US companies will have free thoroughfare for.

The sad thing is no one in the world can stop them even if they wanted to, the US have already threatened the ICC, if any Arab nations threaten them the US will say try your luck.

Legitimately the only thing that can stop it is a revolution in America, an uprising from the American people and that just isn't going to happen.
Click to expand...
Sounds about right.

I dont care less about Hamas , I feel for the Palestinian women and children going through this, Especally the ones in the west bank. the upper and middle borders are cut off by Israel and the bottom borders of the map is cut off by Egypt.

No Middle eastern country wants the palestinian Refugees.
 
Engimal v3 said:
What ranking in Hamas do you suppose the 15,000+ Palestinian children had?
Click to expand...
69th highest

The point I'm trying to make which isn't getting through to some numbskulls is that now with the benefit of hindsight that we know western countries also support genocide and Hamas' allies are useless, Hamas shouldn't have poked the bear to kill 1k people when 35k+ of their own fellow people would be murdered in retaliation. If you start a fight you'd better end it. But if their goal was to highlight the hypocrisy in western countries and the civilian deaths are collateral damage then they've achieved that I guess.
 
sr36 said:
Yeah but you don't use the term with that clarification.

Zionism was a movement for an extremely discriminated against group to have an autonomous nation state. Zion is Israel. The whole Zionism is cancer is essentially the call for the annihilation of Israel and Israelis. A lot of the mentions of Zionist in this thread reads like it's on a Neo-nazi or fundamentalist site. You need a different term if you don't want to be aligned with the right wing fundamentalists who yearn to drive all Israelis into the sea.
Click to expand...
LOL. Zionists want the entire land and don't want to share. Zionism doesn't work with the principle of coexistence. And taking land from another group of people who did them no wrong prior to that is theft. Israel should have been established on the land belonging to Germans, the people who actually did the worst of the discrimination.
 
Johnny Bananas said:
LOL. Zionists want the entire land and don't want to share. Zionism doesn't work with the principle of coexistence. And taking land from another group of people who did them no wrong prior to that is theft. Israel should have been established on the land belonging to Germans, the people who actually did the worst of the discrimination.
Click to expand...

Zionist is a much broader term than you think it is.

Your final sentence makes you a Zionist.
 
Johnny Bananas said:
LOL. Zionists want the entire land and don't want to share. Zionism doesn't work with the principle of coexistence. And taking land from another group of people who did them no wrong prior to that is theft. Israel should have been established on the land belonging to Germans, the people who actually did the worst of the discrimination.
Click to expand...

But it wasn’t . It was established where it was. Arabs want the whole land and have gone to war to achieve that goal.
If Israel had been established in Europe would there be a Palestine today ? Or just a larger Egypt and Jordan?
 

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sr36 said:
Zionist is a much broader term than you think it is.

Your final sentence makes you a Zionist.
Click to expand...
Your historical definitions have no relevance to the 21st century. Zionism now necessarily means thinking Jews should have sole rights to the land covered by Israel and Palestine. Zionism has become fascism and Likud display that in spades.
 
Boston tiger said:
But it wasn’t . It was established where it was. Arabs want the whole land and have gone to war to achieve that goal.
Click to expand...
And they lost. What's your point?

Boston tiger said:
If Israel had been established in Europe would there be a Palestine today ? Or just a larger Egypt and Jordan?
Click to expand...
That depends whether a separate Palestinian identity to Jordanians emerged in the same manner. But again, what's your point?
 
Johnny Bananas said:
Your historical definitions have no relevance to the 21st century. Zionism now necessarily means thinking Jews should have sole rights to the land covered by Israel and Palestine. Zionism has become fascism and Likud display that in spades.
Click to expand...
It's not true though.

Many have picked it up from the Israeli abolitionist crowd without knowing and use it as a swear word that they think is only describing expansionary Jews, but it is also still widely used in its broader sense. If you advocate for a two state solution you are a Zionist.

foreignpolicy.com

The Two-State Solution Is Dead—and Liberal Zionists Can’t Save It

The book “Haifa Republic” is a noble effort to salvage a worldview that no longer has anything to offer.
foreignpolicy.com foreignpolicy.com
 
sr36 said:
It's not true though.

Many have picked it up from the Israeli abolitionist crowd without knowing and use it as a swear word that they think is only describing expansionary Jews, but it is also still widely used in its broader sense. If you advocate for a two state solution you are a Zionist.

foreignpolicy.com

The Two-State Solution Is Dead—and Liberal Zionists Can’t Save It

The book “Haifa Republic” is a noble effort to salvage a worldview that no longer has anything to offer.
foreignpolicy.com foreignpolicy.com
Click to expand...
Again, you're using a historical definition. I prefer this one as its more relevant to the current world:

Zionism is Israel’s national ideology. Zionists believe Judaism is a nationality as well as a religion, and that Jews deserve their own state in their ancestral homeland, Israel, in the same way the French people deserve France or the Chinese people should have China.

www.vox.com

What is Zionism?

In brief, it’s Israel’s national ideology, with Judaism serving as both a nationality and religion.
www.vox.com www.vox.com

Modern Zionism has nothing to do with a thought experiment on carving out a state for Jews on German land after WWII. And, as it happens, I'm not in favour of a two state solution because it can't be done equitably anymore, the settler movement has made that impossible. The only equitable solution now is a plurinational state, unless Israel is willing to pull back the settlers. But that isn't going to happen either.
 
Johnny Bananas said:
Again, you're using a historical definition. I prefer this one as its more relevant to the current world:

Zionism is Israel’s national ideology. Zionists believe Judaism is a nationality as well as a religion, and that Jews deserve their own state in their ancestral homeland, Israel, in the same way the French people deserve France or the Chinese people should have China.

www.vox.com

What is Zionism?

In brief, it’s Israel’s national ideology, with Judaism serving as both a nationality and religion.
www.vox.com www.vox.com

Modern Zionism has nothing to do with a thought experiment on carving out a state for Jews on German land after WWII. And, as it happens, I'm not in favour of a two state solution because it can't be done equitably anymore, the settler movement has made that impossible. The only equitable solution now is a plurinational state, unless Israel is willing to pull back the settlers. But that isn't going to happen either.
Click to expand...
Did you read the whole article you linked?
 
Boston tiger said:
Sounds like you are already there. At least you are one of the good guys watching on.
Click to expand...

Interesting take given I've spent months saying Israel IS committing a Genocide and that the western world should actually do something about it. I'm pretty comfortable with where I sit on the topic, and that if I were in a position to do something about it, I wouldn't be spending my time making excuses for Israel.
 
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