Opinion Is there a God? Atheists, agnostics and believers please slug it out here.

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Lefthanded said:
This is an interesting thread topic and I'm going to have a lot to contribute but need time to do so. On the off chance you are serious in your question (what I recall of your posting history suggests plenty of stirring / sarcasm and I've gotten some good laughs from that) I can't pretend to understand it entirely but suspect God didn't create the Devil as is. Suspect the Devil is a fallen angel, something to do with free choice.
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I thought about this some more and I think you are letting god off the hook here and this peiece of theology doesn't stack up. If you accept that god created everything and was the "start" then he created "bad" or "evil" too. Meaning it was a part of him.. just like it is a part of all of us. If some of those he created chose the option HE created... then he should still rightfully be blamed for it.... he was the originator of everything!!. You religious people can't have it both ways!
 

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doodles98 said:
I thought about this some more and I think you are letting god off the hook here and this peiece of theology doesn't stack up. If you accept that god created everything and was the "start" then he created "bad" or "evil" too. Meaning it was a part of him.. just like it is a part of all of us. If some of those he created chose the option HE created... then he should still rightfully be blamed for it.... he was the originator of everything!!. You religious people can't have it both ways!
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Careful Doodles, you are making me think! I don't accept that God created everything as I believe Jesus was already in existence, not created, so leave room for the Devil to be also in this category. This link seems to indicate he was created though, but not in his evil form https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/did-god-create-the-devil/
As for creating evil, that's a byproduct of having rules ie if evil is not following God's rules and goes back to the free choice to follow or not follow the rules.
Side note, I don't like the word religion - for me it is more about rules and rituals (like the Pharisees) so I don't consider myself religious, rather a person of faith.
 
Old Spice said:
I wrote an article today about Anton LaVey's Church of Satan and Rosemary's Baby for anyone interested.

http://ir.rmitv.org/2016/09/28/american-horror-the-church-of-satan-and-rosemarys-baby/
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Another great read OS. As a young girl, I was more frightened by The Exorcist than Rosemary's Baby, but the subtle horrors of the latter may have gone over my head in favour of the green vomit and the 360 degree swivelling head scenes of the former.

I will be visiting San Francisco on holiday in a couple of weeks. I was last there 20 years ago, a few years after the devastating earthquake. I've always been fascinated by the culture of the city, and how influential it has been, especially the 1960s (drugs, music, gay movement) but also going back to the gold rushes of the 19th century, and the parallels with our own (a fave topic of mine). Anyway, your reference to the city has reminded me of how excited I am to see it again.

But regarding the topic, the Doggies win yesterday may support the proposition that there is a benign, wise and just overseeing God-like-person-thingy.
 
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Vicky Park said:
Another great read OS. As a young girl, I was more frightened by The Exorcist than Rosemary's Baby, but the subtle horrors of the latter may have gone over my head in favour of the green vomit and the 360 degree swivelling head scenes of the former.

I will be visiting San Francisco on holiday in a couple of weeks. I was last there 20 years ago, a few years after the devastating earthquake. I've always been fascinated by the culture of the city, and how influential it has been, especially the 1960s (drugs, music, gay movement) but also going back to the gold rushes of the 19th century, and the parallels with our own (a fave topic of mine). Anyway, your reference to the city has reminded me of how excited I am to see it again.

But regarding the topic, the Doggies win yesterday may suppoprt the proposition that there is a benign, wise and just overseeing God-like-person-thingy.
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Yeah, The Exorcist and The Shining were definitely scarier but Rosemary's Baby was the one that introduced a new style of Satan movie into popular culture. Prior to that there were kind of camp/comedy devil movies where the protagonist was hoodwinked, or some style of morality play where the protagonist learnt their lesson. The thing about Rosemary's Baby is that she did nothing to deserve it (like Linda Blair's character on The Exorcist) but in the end Satan was not expunged but indeed reproduced. What's worse is all the help he got here on earth from respectable citizens. Very much a critique of late 60s US politics imv.
 
This is a wee musical aside in the genre. Holy Shit.

 
Lefthanded said:
Sorry this one's gone straight over my head. Are you linking the devil and John the Baptist?:huh:
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Yes and there are several scholarly references on the subject

What surprises me though is that people who claim to be Religious know very little about Theology and screw their faces up when presented with well researched subject matter on various aspects of religion
 
Baltimore Jack said:
Yes and there are several scholarly references on the subject

What surprises me though is that people who claim to be Religious know very little about Theology and screw their faces up when presented with well researched subject matter on various aspects of religion
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It is possible to come to faith without having studied theology! Care to share some of your knowledge? eg links?
(My google search didn’t show anything but I am uncertain what to look for and didn’t go past the first page of search results)
 

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Lefthanded said:
It is possible to come to faith without having studied theology! Care to share some of your knowledge? eg links?
(My google search didn’t show anything but I am uncertain what to look for and didn’t go past the first page of search results)
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Here's your starting point
Jesus said to those who had been baptised by John
“For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, He has a demon"
(Luke 7:33)

This explains how Jesus became enemies with John
The most significant person found in the scrolls is the head of the community bearing the name of Teacher of Righteousness (moreh ha-zedeq). His identification with historical figures of 2nd and 1st centuries BCE has faced great difficulties. At the same time, many qumranologists acknowledge that there are many common points between this man’s teaching as represented in the manuscripts and the preaching of John the Baptist. Barbara Thiering ventured to equate one of these men with the other. And she was not the first to do it. As early as in 1949, Austrian scholar Robert Eisler, known for his research of the Slavonic translation of Josephus’ Jewish War, indicated that Teacher of the Righteousness is John the Baptist (Rowley, p. 268-269; del Medico, p. 189).

The scrolls also mention two antagonists of the Teacher of Righteousness, the Wicked Priest and the Man of Lies. Deciding that these pseudonyms refer to the same person Thiering saw Jesus Christ behind them, who, according to her, opposed his teaching against John’s position and therefore was rejected by those sectarians who kept faith in the Teacher of Righteousness. She treats Gospels as an allegorical description of the schism by early Christians. She also thinks that one of the most important texts - the Commentary (pesher) on Habakkuk - was written in 30s CE.
 
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Lefthanded said:
Jesus critiquing commoners is your link?
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I generally charge $150 an hour for research

Look I don't give a flying if you believe it or not, I made a statement based on references I had read from several sources over a number of years.
What you read is up to you, not me.
What you believe is up to you, not me
 
Baltimore Jack said:
I generally charge $150 an hour for research

Look I don't give a flying if you believe it or not, I made a statement based on references I had read from several sources over a number of years.
What you read is up to you, not me.
What you believe is up to you, not me
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A little touchy? I was just asking you share some of the references you've read, not do research for me.
 
Lefthanded said:
A little touchy? I was just asking you share some of the references you've read, not do research for me.
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Yeah, maybe I jumped a little too quickly when I shouldn't have, but I get a bit narky when, as you did, "you couldn't be bothered looking beyond the first page on google".
My response is "then why should I bother if you can't"
No big deal, anyway look at the work of Barbara Thiering on 'The Dead Sea Scrolls'
 
Baltimore Jack said:
Yeah, maybe I jumped a little too quickly when I shouldn't have, but I get a bit narky when, as you did, "you couldn't be bothered looking beyond the first page on google".
My response is "then why should I bother if you can't"
No big deal, anyway look at the work of Barbara Thiering on 'The Dead Sea Scrolls'
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Thanks, appreciate that response much more! (and the additional notes you've added via edit to previous post about Luke 7:33.

Seems I've got lots to read but a bit confused so far by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_the_Man as it appears Barbara is calling John "Teacher of Righteousness" and Jesus "[URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicked_Priest']Wicked Priest"[/URL]
 
Lefthanded said:
Thanks, appreciate that response much more! (and the additional notes you've added via edit to previous post about Luke 7:33.

Seems I've got lots to read but a bit confused so far by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_the_Man as it appears Barbara is calling John "Teacher of Righteousness" and Jesus "Wicked Priest"
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Exactly (but that is looking at it from John's perspective) and because of the difference's Jesus considered John to be the Devil

Or in today's speak
Jesus and John were mates (Cousins actually) in the same hood gang.
However their friendship ended because they both wanted to be Top Dog in the new hood gang which was suddenly getting very popular among the neighbors.
They both accuse each other of being crazy dudes (being possessed by a Demon).
Eventually big JC won the argument and became top dog and John was kicked out of the gang

JC eventually 'dropped a dime' on John to the local 5 0 and John got sent to the big house
 
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[QUOTE="Baltimore Jack, post: 47173398, member: 108921"]I generally charge $150 an hour for research

Look I don't give a flying if you believe it or not, I made a statement based on references I had read from several sources over a number of years.
What you read is up to you, not me.
What you believe is up to you, not me[/QUOTE]

Finding some quack on the internet who has a contrarian view which you have read and decided to adopt does not constitute "Research". If you really want to have any f@cking idea what you are talking about, go learn ancient Hebrew and translate the scrolls first hand yourself. Then test it with other peoples translations. That would be research!
 
Kappa said:
Did God also have a plan for every dinosaur? ;)

Or were they just his play thing until he waited for monkeys to evolve over hundreds of millions of years into slightly smarter monkeys that took over one rock amongst 10000000 billion other rocks

Edit* oops I may be derailing thread
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You raise some good points. Can I ask you how you think the entire universe came to be? If you suggest it came from nothing then that seems to contradict science even given the fact that Lawrence Krauss has tried to redefine the meaning of nothing.

Doesn't it give you pause when you consider the fact that a group of apes floating on a tiny rock in an infinite universe have the ability to understand the universe, know how it began and how we evolved? I find this almost unfathomable. What is consciousness? Why do we have such a drive to express ourselves artistically? Many minds far greater than mine find the notion of a supreme being quite logical so I have a very open mind on the matter.
 
Baltimore Jack said:
Some people need a crutch to get through life, just as some people need to take drugs to do the same thing.
If that's what gets them through the day, good luck to them, but don't tell me I am a lesser person for not engaging in their fantasy stories or drug induced haze
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This is such a silly, patronizing non argument which could easily be turned on the person using it. I could suggest that you are far more comfortable believing there is nothing at the end of life because you are disturbed by the idea of eternal life or being held to account for your actions.
 
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