Is Mitch Lewis best 22 (23) when available?

[AlwaysHawks15]

Imagine Lewis getting the silver service that he would currently be receiving with our ball users across the park. He's never had this luxury. He could easily play between 50-80m from goal all game and draw out the opposition's best defenders because he will always attract the best defender which than allows Chol and Dear to prowl the 50 creating mismatches. 3 talls can absolutely work if they all have designated roles in the side. Lewis could be a 30 goal a year forward like a Mihochek but still be vitally important to our premiership chances. We don't need a 60 goal a year forward that's a bonus. If there all contributing weekly teams are going to have all sorts of problems trying to deal with the forward line as a whole when you throw in the smalls.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

On the 3 talls question, Crows are an interesting watch atm with Tex, Thilthorpe and Fogarty - all are absolute brutes.

Has worked very well for them so far this season with 2 games admittedly very much on their terms.

Interestingly last year when we went on our winning run, aside from the disaster at Kardinia Park the only game where I felt for a while we got absolutely dominated was against the Crows at Adelaide Oval in the first quarter. I know we weren’t far behind on the scoreboard at at quarter time but it felt like much more. Their marking talls were very prominent in that.

But then the remaining 3 quarters demonstrated the flip side risks, with us running and chaining out of their tall forward line at will. In the end we ran them off their feet and won by 10 goals or so.

3 talls works if you move the ball like Adelaide is ATM, space opens up across the ground and they don't get into each other's way. That's how we want to play.

 

[extractasam]

2022 was 3 years ago...
2023 had some decent games without setting the world on fire
& has been injury prone since then
Game has changed massively since hes had an extended run of games, just unsure if a slow cumbersome FF is required with how this side plays,
He was bog average at the start of last season
look ill probably have egg on my face when he returns but i think its a worthy conversation

Yeah I think it makes it hard when we’ve seen how well we can function without him there for sure, I understand both sides of the coin and questioned it when he made his return against Geelong whether he’s actually necessary or not.

It’s a nice problem to have. If he ever played a full season he probably kicks 40+. That’s the kicker though, he’s never looked anything like playing a full year.

 

[CD Xbow]

2022 was 3 years ago...
2023 had some decent games without setting the world on fire
& has been injury prone since then
Game has changed massively since hes had an extended run of games, just unsure if a slow cumbersome FF is required with how this side plays,
He was bog average at the start of last season
look ill probably have egg on my face when he returns but i think its a worthy conversation

I think it's a rubbish conversation and I for one will enjoy watching you wash the egg off your face. Pictures please, video even better.

Added - most of the time you will only have 2 up forward. Consider these hypothetical figures for the three players for TOG. 85% is around average so I have used that, with a bit less for Dear because of his recent troubles and in fact he may play even less when he first comes back.
Chol 85% - 25% ruck, 60% forward
Dear 80% - all forward
Lewis 85% -all forward
If you add up the time spent forward you are only playing with 3 up forward around 25% of the time and 75% of the time you play with only 2. I've given Chol a reasonable slice of ruck time because at the moment Meek really looks like he needs more support. Got to keep Meeky at his best.

 

[Roddy]

Yep, straight in, no question (unless they decide to give him a game or two in the magoos). With our ball movement and delivery at the levels they are now (measurably superior than it was in '21-23), he should become the towering KF force we all know he can be.

 

[MrBeefSeven]

I will not tolerate Mitch Lewis slander!

Don't understand why many here have so little faith in him.

He is straight in when fit and unless he has an extended run of poor form he will be our #1 KPF.

Was at Marvel when he kicked 5 in a half against the Crows and it was glorious.

 

[Iceman!]

I will not tolerate Mitch Lewis slander!

Don't understand why many here have so little faith in him.

He is straight in when fit and unless he has an extended run of poor form he will be our #1 KPF.

Was at Marvel when he kicked 5 in a half against the Crows and it was glorious.

It isn't Mitch slander, it is questioning whether team structure wise it makes more sense to stick with 2 talls and a ruckmen. It is a fair question to ask.

 

[Iceman!]

I think it's a rubbish conversation and I for one will enjoy watching you wash the egg off your face. Pictures please, video even better.

Added - most of the time you will only have 2 up forward. Consider these hypothetical figures for the three players for TOG. 85% is around average so I have used that, with a bit less for Dear because of his recent troubles and in fact he may play even less when he first comes back.
Chol 85% - 25% ruck, 60% forward
Dear 80% - all forward
Lewis 85% -all forward
If you add up the time spent forward you are only playing with 3 up forward around 25% of the time and 75% of the time you play with only 2. I've given Chol a reasonable slice of ruck time because at the moment Meek really looks like he needs more support. Got to keep Meeky at his best.

We have been one of the best and most consistent teams for almost 12 months now and that has been with 1-2 talls for the majority of that time. It is not a rubbish conversation, it is fine you disagree but relax.

 

[CD Xbow]

We have been one of the best and most consistent teams for almost 12 months now and that has been with 1-2 talls for the majority of that time. It is not a rubbish conversation, it is fine you disagree but relax.

It is a rubbish conversation. Stupid.

Have we not been scatting on thin ice up forward? What if Chol is injured? Meek already looks knackered and we are only 3 games into the year. Chol, Dear and Lewis will be in the premier forward line. Dear's back problem may in part be due to the heavy work load we exposed him to last year.

Lewis is clearly best 22 and anyone who thinks otherwise is being very silly.

 

[Iceman!]

It is a rubbish conversation. Stupid.

Have we not been scatting on thin ice up forward? What if Chol is injured? Meek already looks knackered and we are only 3 games into the year. Chol, Dear and Lewis will be in the premier forward line. Dear's back problem may in part be due to the heavy work load we exposed him to last year.

Lewis is clearly best 22 and anyone who thinks otherwise is being very silly.

If Chol is injured we would reshuffle our stacked backline and move Sicily to partner the other tall.

Is our forward line skating on thin ice? We have been very efficient so far as far as i am concerned. I think Lewis gets a crack for sure, i am not certain our best line up includes all 3 talls.

 

[wahawk]

hr_23 slow & cumbersome are prob not 2 words that come to my mind when speaking of Mitch Lewis

 

[Hawkspot]

People really think it’s better for our team to have Hardwick, Ginni, Watson, and Moore having to fly 2 at a time to contest the ball is better than having Lewis taking a mark?

We’re losing out at ground level massively at the moment because our smalls are constantly having to go up in packs.

The idea that we’d just chuck Lewis, Chol, and Dear up the line together for the whole game is ridiculous.

2 on field at a time with 4 smalls. They all stay fresh and we keep our smalls on the ground where they belong.

We’re playing this well in spite of having significant injuries, not because we have those injuries.

 

[mustang]

No he hasn't played for around 2 years, hasn't managed more the 15 games in a season ever.

Sam's game plan forward is also base on high pressure, it's why Chol, Dear do so well, the game style has changed since Lewis has been out of the side.

 

[The Chad and I]

Too much talk about what he is potentially capable of doing.

Lewis just does not deliver enough value.
Potential is comforting when the player is under 22 and on a modest contract.

 

[eldorado]

Lewis just does not deliver enough value.

"Lewis does not deliver enough value" is not a valid phrase to use.

One could argue that injuries have meant he hasn't delivered value, that would be a reasonable position.

To just assume that that is what Lewis just "does" as in on a permanent, ongoing basis, is assuming his future will be exactly the same as his past. That can be the case with recurring soft tissue injuries to the same muscle, not so with ligament strains and impact injuries...

 

[flamin_heck]

We could really use some more contested marking around the ground- something that Mitch brings a real point of difference. In games like the Port final when the pressures ramped up, there’s barely an inch to move a contested grab in the 50 or even up on a flank can break the game open and adds another dimension to a team looking to achieve big things.
Mitch instantly becomes our best marking foward, with a beautiful boot on him also. Fingers crossed for his health because if he can reach previous form we are looking bloody tough to stop.

 

[The Chad and I]

"Lewis does not deliver enough value" is not a valid phrase to use.

One could argue that injuries have meant he hasn't delivered value, that would be a reasonable position.

To just assume that that is what Lewis just "does" as in on a permanent, ongoing basis, is assuming his future will be exactly the same as his past. That can be the case with recurring soft tissue injuries to the same muscle, not so with ligament strains and impact injuries...

It's a valid phrase.
8 year track record is enough for me to state that with high confidence.

 

[Mr Lizard]

Mitch Lewis does not deliver enough value!

 

[Nugett]

It is a rubbish conversation. Stupid.

Have we not been scatting on thin ice up forward? What if Chol is injured? Meek already looks knackered and we are only 3 games into the year. Chol, Dear and Lewis will be in the premier forward line. Dear's back problem may in part be due to the heavy work load we exposed him to last year.

Lewis is clearly best 22 and anyone who thinks otherwise is being very silly.

What if? There is a lot of what if scenario’s that can take place.

Seeing that we are undeafted, I’d say our forward line isn’t skating on thin ice, as our team is still kicking a winning score.

We do have two young forwards at Boxhill, who could be trialed if need be and hopefully remain consistent that they are able to break into the team of their own efforts. We also have players such as Sicily, Battle and Weddle that can swing forward when need be.

To say that Mitch Lewis is best 22, I also think is debatable, as so far this year, other players who would be classed as best 22 in Worpel and Scrimshaw, we were able to replace them in Ward and Jiath, who have covered them seamlessly. I say our team doesn’t have a best 22 but a best 30. So if a player is injured or out of form, they can be easily replaced.

 

[ReturningHawk]

Too much talk about what he is potentially capable of doing.

Lewis just does not deliver enough value.
Potential is comforting when the player is under 22 and on a modest contract.

Enough value for what? To keep him on the list? I don't see many clubs rushing their gun key forwards out the door, so I wouldn't hold your breath.

This thread would give the coaches a chuckle.

 

[ReturningHawk]

To say that Mitch Lewis is best 22, I also think is debatable, as so far this year, other players who would be classed as best 22 in Worpel and Scrimshaw, we were able to replace them in Ward and Jiath, who have covered them seamlessly. I say our team doesn’t have a best 22 but a best 30. So if a player is injured or out of form, they can be easily replaced.

I wouldn't call our clearance numbers seamless exactly. Mitch is not best 22 now, because he's injured, but Mitch back to his 2023 form where he averaged 13 touches, 2.4 goals and 6 score involvements per game? That version of Mitch is probably the next magnet on the board after Sicily. That goal average alone ranked him 8th in the league that year. If you think some box hill youngsters, or even Calsher Dear is coming in to give us that kind of output, you're going to be disappointed.

 

[harliquin]

First off let me preface this thread by saying there's no greater Lewis fan than me,

Is Mitch Lewis a walkup best 22 player when he returns from his ACL?
or has Hawthorn's game plan moved past a Full Forward in the Lewis mould?
During the clubs remarkable run they have found great success with Mabior Chol & Calsher Dear as the 2 main targets & a scintiliting array of small forwards.
Chol for all his supposed flaws, plays second ruck averages better than a goal a game & pressures like no other for a player his size,
Calsher is the prototype of the game plan flies for his marks but is fleet of foot to butter up when the ball hits the deck,
Also worth noting that when Lewis played last season the club didnt win a game & his return game against the Cats was the worst the side played since the 0-5 start.

i would love to see Mitch Lewis up & firing kicking bags for the Hawks but where does he fit into the team that has been flying in his absence???

Would love to know what fellow Hawk fans think

 

[MrBeefSeven]

It isn't Mitch slander, it is questioning whether team structure wise it makes more sense to stick with 2 talls and a ruckmen. It is a fair question to ask.

The Mitch slander comment was not super serious just playful in jest.

But to back up my opinion: based on what he did across 22-23, fit Mitch Lewis is our best tall forward, so irrespective of team structure he is the first picked.

I feel like this argument is a bit like if someone had said we shouldn't have brought in TB and JB because "well we already have Frost and Scrimshaw and Sic and Dimma and Weddle and Serong as backup and Blanck coming back, so who would we force out?"

In my opinion, Lewis is a more valuable player than Chol on the field. They are very different, but Lewis is a significantly better contested mark, generally competes better, and is better on the lead. They are both good set shot kicks although Lewis ahead. Chol is much better at ground level and with tackling pressure. They both provide value up the ground.

I think Dear will be very very good, but to act like he's shown more than Lewis in 17 games doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

On the above though, there's another aspect where players like Chol and Lewis provide different skills and value to the team. There are areas where Chol is better but conversely there are areas where Lewis is better eg marking contests. The things Lewis provides I feel we have been lacking, but in any case they can 100% play together.

Another thing I've seen a little is people reducing Lewis' game and talking like he's not mobile or slow. Mitch's work rate and movement for a tall was very good across 22-23. He's not as fast as Chol and Dear, but speed is Chol's one wood and Dear is about 15kgs lighter. Lewis is not a one dimensional player.

 

[Nugett]

I wouldn't call our clearance numbers seamless exactly. Mitch is not best 22 now, because he's injured, but Mitch back to his 2023 form where he averaged 13 touches, 2.4 goals and 6 score involvements per game? That version of Mitch is probably the next magnet on the board after Sicily. That goal average alone ranked him 8th in the league that year. If you think some box hill youngsters, or even Calsher Dear is coming in to give us that kind of output, you're going to be disappointed.

In 2023 our tall forwards consisted of Brandon Ryan, Jacob Koschitzke and Fergus Greene, with forward stints fromDGB, along with Mitch Lewis. So it’s not surprising that he was a shining light. Even someone like Stringer would look like a superstar in that line up.

The most games Lewis has played in a season has been 15 games, which he has achieved twice. In 2022 and 2023. Since he made his debut in 2018 he was played 70 games. So since his debut in 2018 to 2024 that is an average of 7 games a season. Calsher played 17 in his first season.

That is why I question as to whether he is best 22, as his place in the team has not been consistent. Yes injuries have played a huge part. Which brings me to another question, how many years does he have left? My feeling is he will be one of these players that will retire early due to the injuries he has suffered.

Calsher last year, showed signs of a very good player, especially his performance against the Bulldogs in the Elimination Final. He will only improve.

MacCabe in the preseason games showed great attributes in the limited minutes he played, just needs to prove that he is too good for Boxhill, to give himself a chance of breaking into the team.

Lewis is possibly our best forward option currently, but isn’t essential as he once was. Dear can only improve once he recovers from his injury.

 

[ReturningHawk]

In 2023 our tall forwards consisted of Brandon Ryan, Jacob Koschitzke and Fergus Greene, with forward stints fromDGB, along with Mitch Lewis. So it’s not surprising that he was a shining light. Even someone like Stringer would look like a superstar in that line up.

The most games Lewis has played in a season has been 15 games, which he has achieved twice. In 2022 and 2023. Since he made his debut in 2018 he was played 70 games. So since his debut in 2018 to 2024 that is an average of 7 games a season. Calsher played 17 in his first season.

That is why I question as to whether he is best 22, as his place in the team has not been consistent. Yes injuries have played a huge part. Which brings me to another question, how many years does he have left? My feeling is he will be one of these players that will retire early due to the injuries he has suffered.

Calsher last year, showed signs of a very good player, especially his performance against the Bulldogs in the Elimination Final. He will only improve.

MacCabe in the preseason games showed great attributes in the limited minutes he played, just needs to prove that he is too good for Boxhill, to give himself a chance of breaking into the team.

Lewis is possibly our best forward option currently, but isn’t essential as he once was. Dear can only improve once he recovers from his injury.

You've mentioned a lot of other players in your post, and not one of them ever managed to play consistently well as the number one key forward in an AFL team. His injuries are a big concern for us, but only because we need him out there if we're going to progress further than last year.