Opinion Heretier Lumumba

[sr36]

My understanding, for what its worth, is as follows.

Lumumba was put in the leadership group and he took that very seriously. Buckley preached a mantra of being the best that he could be and lumumba took that very seriously too. He was told that as a leader in the club that if he should take action to fix problems, without fear or irrespective of the power of the people involved. Buckley encouraged this view. Their relationship was tight and lumumba had a lot of trust in buckley and looked up to him.

When the eddie goodes episode happened, lumumba did what he thought he had to do as a leader of the club and went public. Buckley said to Lumumba that he threw ed under the bus, which effectively told lumumba that should not take action when the club is being affected adversely.

Lumumba now believed that buckley had misled him into thinking that he should take grievances to the limit without fear. Worse than that, Lumumba felt that buckley dumped his support for him and cut him loose and got rid of him. He felt betrayed. The person that he admired was a fraud - to him.

Now I am not saying that lumumba is reasonable for his view. I am just saying this is what i think lumumba is thinking. People are free to rubbish it and probably will so off you go...

I agree.

But I do think that HL was either incredibly naive or really stupid. The club had taken a stance in support of Ed, but not his comment. I doubt anyone other than HLs view of leadership involved him adding his voice to the media lynch mob that were circling frantically looking for blood.

And to not understand that other view of his actions, even if you disagree, even after10 years of dwelling on events....**** me.

 

[Markfs]

Nor did white men care much when they were overrunning other white men in Europe. The Roman Empire was certainly an equal opportunity oppressor. It was never to do with race it was everything to do with power, plunder and rape as has always been the case even with the mighty Zulu and Apache nations.

well humans love to have power over humans...irrespective of colour. The point was whether things were so much better for them because of some stuff on social media...

i just thought of gay people. Some might say that they have never had it so good. They can get married. Everyone wants to be gay when it's the mardi gras...... but then gays get put in jail in russia and shot in the middle east....so maybe it's better to be hetero

 

[Pie eyed]

Heriiteir Lumumba is entitled to his perspective. He played well for Collingwood and is a premiership player.
I understand he has suffered childhood trauma, including sexual assault by a close relative, this may lead to some poor decision making later in life.

It appears there may be racism (ie nickname) involved, by those involved in the club, this is tragic. The president was often foot in mouth when in the media.
Both these things further enforces HL position and perspective.
Also there seems to be a mishandling of the clubs response at the time. The coach would not be the best person to deal with the complaint, at the time.

We should wait for the results any mediation or legal outcome.
There seems to be a lynch mob mentality occurring in the discussion. It's not a a clear cut issue, that many make it out to be.
Lets all take a deep breath and get on with our lives.

A lot of us are waiting for the mediation, in fact keenly hoping it occurs.
I for one would like the issue to go to court asap.
I would like this settled, to the approval of all parties, not just harry but leon and any other player who felt they have been wronged.

 

[Markfs]

I agree.

But I do think that HL was either incredibly naive or really stupid. The club had taken a stance in support of Ed, but not his comment. I doubt anyone other than HLs view of leadership involved him adding his voice to the media lynch mob that were circling frantically looking for blood.

And to not understand that other view of his actions, even if you disagree, even 20 years of dwelling on events later.. fu** me.

The point that i was making is that people view the current problem with lumumba not letting go of the racial issue. I'm saying that he thinks that he was given a voice by collingwood as a leader....encouraged by buckley.....
and then buckley ironically threw him under the bus....buckley chose the club ahead of principles - as H sees it

 

[adge0001]

The point that i was making is that people view the current problem with lumumba not letting go of the racial issue. I'm saying that he thinks that he was given a voice by collingwood as a leader....encouraged by buckley.....
and then buckley ironically threw him under the bus....buckley chose the club ahead of principles - as H sees it

Fair call. H was still young. Obviously naive of the game of politics. He saw the leadership guidance by Buckley as black and white, but there is a shit load of grey in there. Buckley hadn’t gone as deep as he should have.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[domus]

a greater voice for white men to listen to their problems? Maybe. Although I dont think most bother to listen. I would admit that white men didnt care too much when they had their european empires in africa or when they ran the slave trade. So probably there has been a nominal improvement.

I suppose you could say north is closer to winning a premiership now than at the start of the season and it's hard to argue with that, but its irrelevant to the real question anyway.

i half heard a chris rock joke where he said that he was a black guy doing pretty well. He had a fair amount of money etc. And you'd be hard pressed to find a white guy - even one living in the gutter - who would trade places. It probably overstates it a bit but it's a joke that cuts it because there is a lot of truth in it.

The slave trade was also and is still being run without any help from white men. The many nations of non whites who indulged in slavery didn't care too much either. Why do whites always get tagged as the slave traders when almost every nation on earth has indulged and some still do?

As for Chris Rock's "joke"- what a load of crap. Doing pretty well? The question is would Chris be willing to give up his fame and fortune to be one of those privileged whitey's living on the street? There would be a conga line of homeless, whites living in extreme poverty who would trade places with Chris Rock, Will Smith, Oprah, Michael Jordan and one thousand other multi millionaires who happen to be black. His joke contains not one iota of truth- if you paraphrased him accurately.

 

[domus]

Nor did white men care much when they were overrunning other white men in Europe. The Roman Empire was certainly an equal opportunity oppressor. It was never to do with race it was everything to do with power, plunder and rape as has always been the case even with the mighty Zulu and Apache nations.

So refreshing to see someone with a grasp on history and the truth. I promise I hadn't read your post before I wrote mine.

 

[Quicky]

I would have liked the "do better" report to have actually addressed and laid bare actual instances of racism.
Not be just another vague overview of an organisation, absolutely devoid of any intricate detail of factual, evidential wrong.
I always have and still do have the feeling that these reports,(not just those instigated by the CFC) in the absence of "hard" evidence simply accept the gist of the complaint/s or the complainant/s, and fall back on an ambit apology, a verbal salve which really is nothing more than an acceptance of the belief that racism is bubbling away hidden, beneath the surface everywhere in society.

In the absence of any specific claims by Harry or any other mentioned by him, or former indigenous players, I would hazard a guess that the sum total of the racism the faced in the era of the last/current administration would have been "thoughtless" comments which had racist overtones.

Harry's grievance seems more that his concerns certain sexist comments, alleged photographs etc were not given the import that he felt they deserved.
I think he then made the assumption it was not because the club felt they had been addressed but because of his colour.
Once made, that assumption, right or wrong , became fact to Harry.
He has been stewing on that for a decade.

I honestly don't not think I am even vaguely racist and I understand I am opening the door for everyone to make their own assumption on that claim based on what they are reading here now or any of my previous posts in many thousands of threads on this forum, many of them specifically on the subject of racism, and will let my posting history speak in my support.

The authors of the Report did identify specific instances of racism through documents that were reviewed and interviews they conducted. These just weren't published in the Report, at least not the full details. I don't think it would have been appropriate to do so.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

The point that i was making is that people view the current problem with lumumba not letting go of the racial issue. I'm saying that he thinks that he was given a voice by collingwood as a leader....encouraged by buckley.....
and then buckley ironically threw him under the bus....buckley chose the club ahead of principles - as H sees it

H was given a role as a leader in a football club over football related matters. If he chose to extend that role beyond football matters, that was his decision and I am sure not what Buckley was expecting of him. If he feels betrayed by Buckley, then so be it, but I doubt that Buckley's support for him as leader in any way anticipated him going public with his condemnation of Eddie.

 

[sr36]

The point that i was making is that people view the current problem with lumumba not letting go of the racial issue. I'm saying that he thinks that he was given a voice by collingwood as a leader....encouraged by buckley.....
and then buckley ironically threw him under the bus....buckley chose the club ahead of principles - as H sees it

I'm agreeing with you. Then going on to suggest that HL is a narrow minded simpleton if he thinks there was only one principle involved.

 

[domus]

The point that i was making is that people view the current problem with lumumba not letting go of the racial issue. I'm saying that he thinks that he was given a voice by collingwood as a leader....encouraged by buckley.....
and then buckley ironically threw him under the bus....buckley chose the club ahead of principles - as H sees it

I think you give Lumumba far too much credit. He was a tosser long before this racial crap broke out. The thinking chair, asking to meet the Dalai Lama and strutting about like his farts didn't stink. I remember the rambling story he poured out to the media on his return from a holiday in Brazil where he deliberately implied he was a victim of sexual abuse ( before explaining he was talking about someone he knows when he was questioned further on his comments. He also was possibly being hunted down by Brazilian mafia because he witnessed a murder. To this day he has never provided any further details on the incident. And that cringeworthy narcissistic speech at the Copeland was a joke. If Beams or any other bloke at the club had spoken like that he would have had the piss taken out of him for the rest of his career. Coloured people are allowed to be w***ers too.

 

[sr36]

I would have liked the "do better" report to have actually addressed and laid bare actual instances of racism.
Not be just another vague overview of an organisation, absolutely devoid of any intricate detail of factual, evidential wrong.
I always have and still do have the feeling that these reports,(not just those instigated by the CFC) in the absence of "hard" evidence simply accept the gist of the complaint/s or the complainant/s, and fall back on an ambit apology, a verbal salve which really is nothing more than an acceptance of the belief that racism is bubbling away hidden, beneath the surface everywhere in society.

In the absence of any specific claims by Harry or any other mentioned by him, or former indigenous players, I would hazard a guess that the sum total of the racism the faced in the era of the last/current administration would have been "thoughtless" comments which had racist overtones.

Harry's grievance seems more that his concerns certain sexist comments, alleged photographs etc were not given the import that he felt they deserved.
I think he then made the assumption it was not because the club felt they had been addressed but because of his colour.
Once made, that assumption, right or wrong , became fact to Harry.
He has been stewing on that for a decade.

I honestly don't not think I am even vaguely racist and I understand I am opening the door for everyone to make their own assumption on that claim based on what they are reading here now or any of my previous posts in many thousands of threads on this forum, many of them specifically on the subject of racism, and will let my posting history speak in my support.

They weren't commissioned to investigate for instances of direct racism. They aren't trying to deduce the truth of an allegation. They were commissioned to look at our response and whether it was likely to increase or decrease racism and whether it was likely to maximise or minimise the harm it would cause if it occurred. It isn't about what most of us mean when we are talking about direct racism.

And what would be the point of investigating that. Its about making the organisation better. The employee and not the organisation is at fault with individual acts of racism. The organisation is at fault when they ignore those instances, sweep them under the carpet, don't create processes for dealing with issues and don't create a culture where it is viewed as unacceptable and don't create a culture where people can make a complaint without fear of repercussions. Those things are what is meant by systemic racism.

Instances of racism can and do occur in the most well run organisations who deal extremely effectively with racism. It's about having prevention measures in place to reduce the likelihood of occurrences and about effectively dealing with occurrences so they cause minimal harm and those two parts are intertwined.

 

[Markfs]

I think you give Lumumba far too much credit. He was a tosser long before this racial crap broke out. The thinking chair, asking to meet the Dalai Lama and strutting about like his farts didn't stink. I remember the rambling story he poured out to the media on his return from a holiday in Brazil where he deliberately implied he was a victim of sexual abuse ( before explaining he was talking about someone he knows when he was questioned further on his comments. He also was possibly being hunted down by Brazilian mafia because he witnessed a murder. To this day he has never provided any further details on the incident. And that cringeworthy narcissistic speech at the Copeland was a joke. If Beams or any other bloke at the club had spoken like that he would have had the piss taken out of him for the rest of his career. Coloured people are allowed to be w***ers too.

And w***ers can have feelings too... I think he feels that buckley misled him, abandoned him, threw him under the bus and sided with the club.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

I think you give Lumumba far too much credit. He was a tosser long before this racial crap broke out. The thinking chair, asking to meet the Dalai Lama and strutting about like his farts didn't stink.

I think there’s a fair bit of hubris there, but there’s nothing wrong with having a thinking chair, and if you don’t ask to meet the Dalai Lama when he’s in town, then you’re going to die wondering, aren’t you? May as well take a slash outside off stump and see what happens…

 

[domus]

And w***ers can have feelings too... I think he feels that buckley misled him, abandoned him, threw him under the bus and sided with the club.

That may be the case, but what kind of slimebag secretly records someone? He had the advantage of knowing he was recording so he could play the innocent victim role while hoping Buck's might show a lapse in judgement as we all have when we think we are having a private conversation and say something which paints him or the club in a poor light. He could lead the target down rabbit holes so to speak. Buck's came out of that very well. Calm, controlled and no anger or abuse. Bucks must be fuming.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

And w***ers can have feelings too... I think he feels that buckley misled him, abandoned him, threw him under the bus and sided with the club.

I think he had an overinflated view of his own importance and totally misinterpreted the role he had been given as a leader. If his feelings were hurt, the fault for that lies with him, not Buckley.

 

[Markfs]

I'm agreeing with you. Then going on to suggest that HL is a narrow minded simpleton if he thinks there was only one principle involved.

well we know he is one of those people who emotionally goes overboard. Put in a leadership position, he thought he was representing the club, in charge of club staff grievances.... Mr. 110%. I think he is stuck with the idea that buckley told him to be the best he could be, and then he abandoned him and took steps to get him out of the club. I think buckley's loyalties to the club would always take precedence over what eddie might do. H sees that as a compromise of buckley's principles...but more...buckley was deceptive by telling H that he should take things to the end without fear and he would support him.

He needs buckley to say that he let H down. But NB continues to say he was supporting H. That is the problem. It wont be fixed.

 

[domus]

I think there’s a fair bit of hubris there, but there’s nothing wrong with having a thinking chair, and if you don’t ask to meet the Dalai Lama when he’s in town, then you’re going to die wondering, aren’t you? May as well take a slash outside off stump and see what happens…

If Heater or Beamsy had said they have a thinking chair where they ponder life's big questions and asked to meet with the Dalai Lama you'd be taking pot shots inside a minute! Humorous ones. Surely you have been in a footy club environment. Teammates can't stand blokes who get ahead of themselves on or off the field.

 

[Markfs]

That may be the case, but what kind of slimebag secretly records someone? He had the advantage of knowing he was recording so he could play the innocent victim role while hoping Buck's might show a lapse in judgement as we all have when we think we are having a private conversation and say something which paints him or the club in a poor light. He could lead the target down rabbit holes so to speak. Buck's came out of that very well. Calm, controlled and no anger or abuse. Bucks must be fuming.

I dont disagree but it has no effect on how H feels about NB.

 

[Markfs]

I think he had an overinflated view of his own importance and totally misinterpreted the role he had been given as a leader. If his feelings were hurt, the fault for that lies with him, not Buckley.

well as they say in this matter, that is your truth.... i dont think H would agree with you

 

[Markfs]

If Heater or Beamsy had said they have a thinking chair where they ponder life's big questions and asked to meet with the Dalai Lama you'd be taking pot shots inside a minute! Humorous ones. Surely you have been in a footy club environment. Teammates can't stand blokes who get ahead of themselves on or off the field.

Domie...the rest of the world is not like you... or the guys you played footy with. I can make jokes about H and you know that i would and have here. I'm not fussed by the net. However, you have to look at things from H's perspective because he has the ability to raise this issue from time to time and it seems the media (and us) respond every time. I was merely asking what is his current problem...and I think he feels that buckley let him down.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

If Heater or Beamsy had said they have a thinking chair where they ponder life's big questions and asked to meet with the Dalai Lama you'd be taking pot shots inside a minute! Humorous ones. Surely you have been in a footy club environment. Teammates can't stand blokes who get ahead of themselves on or off the field.

Look I agree, but I think it’s all in how you package it. A lot of players do yoga as part of their preparation these days, a particular chair you use for meditation or mindfulness is not a big deal. The problem is that it got mentioned in the media and became the basis for Heritier’s image outside of football.

As for asking to meet the Dalai Lama, well yes there would be some extraction of urine, but what if it was Swanny? You’d just laugh and think “what a kooky bloke!” rather than letting it get up your nose and putting it down to inflated self-importance.

 

[Markfs]

it's a line of thinking that i see a lot in BF.... that because someone is a w***er, they have no opinion or its ok to treat them unreasonably etc. Conversely, if someone is a good bloke then their opinion has worth, we should listen to them etc etc....

I remember this kind of thinking at school.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

well we know he is one of those people who emotionally goes overboard. Put in a leadership position, he thought he was representing the club, in charge of club staff grievances.... Mr. 110%. I think he is stuck with the idea that buckley told him to be the best he could be, and then he abandoned him and took steps to get him out of the club. I think buckley's loyalties to the club would always take precedence over what eddie might do. H sees that as a compromise of buckley's principles...but more...buckley was deceptive by telling H that he should take things to the end without fear and he would support him.

He needs buckley to say that he let H down. But NB continues to say he was supporting H. That is the problem. It wont be fixed.

Nor should it be fixed now on Heritier's terms. Buckley has already recently said he regrets not giving Heritier more support, which is more than he should have admitted to given Lumumba's track record of creating strength for himself out of his perceived weakness of others.

 

[jmac70]

That may be the case, but what kind of slimebag secretly records someone? He had the advantage of knowing he was recording so he could play the innocent victim role while hoping Buck's might show a lapse in judgement as we all have when we think we are having a private conversation and say something which paints him or the club in a poor light. He could lead the target down rabbit holes so to speak. Buck's came out of that very well. Calm, controlled and no anger or abuse. Bucks must be fuming.

I believe it’s called entrapment.