Autopsy Hawthorn loses to Brisbane Lions

[jr4jane2004]

Clarko doesnt think there's an issue - just a little bit of lack of polish.
Probably no changes made for West Coast.

HAWTHORN coach Alastair Clarkson lamented his team’s lack of polish with the ball, pointing to uncharacteristic skill errors as a key factor in the Hawks’ 56-point loss to the Brisbane Lions on Sunday.

Clarkson said his team failed to capitalise on a first half in which it dominated many key stats before the Lions ran riot in the second half and kicked away with the game.

The Hawks coach said their skill errors had been down in previous few weeks and the Lions duly capitalised.

DETAILS Full match coverage and stats

"The bottom line is that they just used it in a better manner than what we did," Clarkson said.

"That usually isn't the way we describe ourselves, usually our polish with the football is pretty strong."

Despite the recent run of poor ball handling, Clarkson backed his team to turn it around.

"We were pretty good at it early in the season, but we just haven’t been as good in that space in the last two to three games," Clarkson said.

"It’s a topsy-turvy year and hopefully we can work on it in training and get ourselves better in that space."

Hawthorn looked lively early, with Jack Gunston scoring two early goals to give the Hawks the early momentum at the Gabba.

HIGH-FLYING LION LIGHTS UP GABBA Five talking points

But some late Lions goals reduced the deficit to just five points at quarter-time, and from there Brisbane convincingly beat the Hawks in each remaining quarter.

"I think we … nearly doubled them for possession and control of the ball early in the game and probably to come out of that quarter to be 5-4 probably wasn’t a great reflection of how well we were playing at that point in time," Clarkson said.

"Full credit to Brisbane, seven times they went inside 50m they were able to score four goals.

"It was probably only going to be a matter of time where the Brisbane midfield were going to start getting some of their supply and control of the ball.

"We couldn’t change the momentum of the game, we tried a lot of things but to the credit of their side and their play, they didn’t allow us to get back into the contest."

During the week Clarkson said Luke Hodge was just one of 22 "faceless men" that Hawthorn would have to confront at the Gabba.

Clarkson continued to play down the clash against his former skipper post-game when asked if it was strange seeing Hodge in opposition colours.

WATCH Alastair Clarkson's full post-match media conference

"No not really, it’s the modern game. Everyone moves on, he’s a Brisbane Lion now, he’s enjoying his time up here and making a contribution for the Brisbane side and the Brisbane club," he said.

"He’s moved in his direction, we’ve moved in ours."

 

[Hawk Hawkins]

God you so much as fart near the Swines board and you get a day ban

I went there and followed through in October 2014 and haven’t been able to see their board since. Tell em I said ‘hi’.

 

[savagelunchbox]

The whinging about bombing on our forwards heads is becoming ridiculous. Whilst you may see it as frustrating We’ve done this for atleast two years. We aren’t seeking a contested mark upon the deep bomb but we are looking for a stoppage, a free kick or a rushed kick from the opposition that hits the zone we have set up 70 metres out. Thus why it’s ussually a slower build up before the high kick forward. When we force a turnover we then spot up a lead or switch it against an out of position opposition to the open side of the forward 50. It’s no coincidence we are the best team at stopping rebound 50s and in turn score off their turn overs. Whilst it may seem frustrating at times the team will not honour a 50/50 lead if we don’t have numbers to either pressure or we haven’t zoned behind the ball.

I don’t know if everyone remembers during 2006 to even 2010 how many times teams would rebound on us hard to spot up their forward on the rebound with 20 metres space! We would be trying to zone and slow down teams who weren’t used to working through that web but if we couldn’t set up it the opposition would rebound and kick to an uncontested mark 30 metres out against us. This happened many of times if we couldn’t slow their movement starting from our forward entry. Our ball movement and structure is based around covering a turn over. Whilst we go forward we are ensuring our midfield has set a wall up and we have a Zone to roll back and help defence. Our whole structure since Clarkson has been coach is to team defend upfield to cover the lack of one on one defensive capabilities of our defenders. Like Dawson Frawley brand

Would I love us to try use Gunston as a pure full forward and lead out like Ben Brown does of course! The problem is if we try move the ball quick and honour his lead teams will have players already guarding space for Gunners to lead to. Leaving us out numbered on the deck, they rebound, overlap, use their numbers to move it quickly and doesn’t allow us to pressure them either in the midfield or get people back to support either Frawley or Brand by guarding space.

Clarkson has played this same structure for a long time. If our midfield were dominate enough in the centre clearances and had elite disposal efficiency for us to kick to a lead up full forward with gloves for hands then we would be doing it. Our structure while may be frustrating is based around slowing down ball movement and supporting our key defenders with numbers by guarding space.

Regardless whilst you may be pissed off with how we currently enter our forward fifty. Just know we don’t have 1 key forward who we can trust to take a contested lead up with confidence to hold the mark. The game plan would certainly look more damaging if we had a fully fit rioli, and Puopolo providing tackle pressure from the jump

We've been trying this for years and teams have now figured out how to beat it with ease.

Rioli was there early in year and it made little to no difference, especially against Richmond. Teams know how to take Rioli out of it. With the slow build up to the high bomb, teams flood back into Hawthorns F50. They give up the sideways kick and often the switch as long as it allows the stop-start build up.

Once the high ball comes in, they have one player to take Rioli out of the action and the rest of them have the numbers when the ball hit the ground to transition the ball without the rushed kick out. The rush kick happens from time to time, but then it's just a rinse and repeat unsuccessful high ball entry.

The success we have on kicking to leading forwards is incredibly high. When the mark isn't taken, the ball often stays there, which can't be said for the high ball gameplan.

So what you have said is correct; that is the plan, but every coach knows this and every coach knows how to make it ineffective yet the coach is still going to the same dry well thinking it will be full of water.

What's even more frustrating is that against Geelong, for the first 3 quarters, the high ball plan was not used and replaced by looking for leads and players in space. As effective as it was, the same BS high ball plan that hasn't worked for 18 months was then put back in the Plan A slot.

 

[sohsam]

Games like today really put a dent in the "draft picks are overrated" argument.

Fact is we haven't had access (or we traded) to any top 10/15 picks in a long time besides Burton.

You can't go that long without any real elite kids and it not start to impact you.

Ours kids are alright but none scream potential A grader besides Burton (or maybe not anymore).

In saying this I believe Hawthorn have done the right thing in trading picks for players like Mitchell and JOM. As these are elite/A graders (maybe not JOM but who knows with him).

It's just starting to affect us with our youth when we only have late picks to pick kids up with.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

I believe JOM would have demanded Pick 1, considered best young player, compared to Judd, inside/outside player. Mitchell not so much, more an accumulator. I did not watch JOM closely at Suns but aparently being tagged ahead of Ablett. I just have not seen the footy smarts yet.

 

[William Wonka]

The whinging about bombing on our forwards heads is becoming ridiculous. Whilst you may see it as frustrating We’ve done this for atleast two years. We aren’t seeking a contested mark upon the deep bomb but we are looking for a stoppage, a free kick or a rushed kick from the opposition that hits the zone we have set up 70 metres out. Thus why it’s ussually a slower build up before the high kick forward. When we force a turnover we then spot up a lead or switch it against an out of position opposition to the open side of the forward 50. It’s no coincidence we are the best team at stopping rebound 50s and in turn score off their turn overs. Whilst it may seem frustrating at times the team will not honour a 50/50 lead if we don’t have numbers to either pressure or we haven’t zoned behind the ball.

I don’t know if everyone remembers during 2006 to even 2010 how many times teams would rebound on us hard to spot up their forward on the rebound with 20 metres space! We would be trying to zone and slow down teams who weren’t used to working through that web but if we couldn’t set up it the opposition would rebound and kick to an uncontested mark 30 metres out against us. This happened many of times if we couldn’t slow their movement starting from our forward entry. Our ball movement and structure is based around covering a turn over. Whilst we go forward we are ensuring our midfield has set a wall up and we have a Zone to roll back and help defence. Our whole structure since Clarkson has been coach is to team defend upfield to cover the lack of one on one defensive capabilities of our defenders. Like Dawson Frawley brand

Would I love us to try use Gunston as a pure full forward and lead out like Ben Brown does of course! The problem is if we try move the ball quick and honour his lead teams will have players already guarding space for Gunners to lead to. Leaving us out numbered on the deck, they rebound, overlap, use their numbers to move it quickly and doesn’t allow us to pressure them either in the midfield or get people back to support either Frawley or Brand by guarding space.

Clarkson has played this same structure for a long time. If our midfield were dominate enough in the centre clearances and had elite disposal efficiency for us to kick to a lead up full forward with gloves for hands then we would be doing it. Our structure while may be frustrating is based around slowing down ball movement and supporting our key defenders with numbers by guarding space.

Regardless whilst you may be pissed off with how we currently enter our forward fifty. Just know we don’t have 1 key forward who we can trust to take a contested lead up with confidence to hold the mark. The game plan would certainly look more damaging if we had a fully fit rioli, and Puopolo providing tackle pressure from the jump

Clarkson is very very stubborn.
What you described is pretty much what has occurred, but it needs to change.
We have to go back to holding the ball up around the 60-70 meter mark and look for very short entries. Then change it up with long kicks on goal/goalsquare.

 

[Birdofprey]

We are doing ok I guess. I’m feeling down about it, but also trying to be realistic. Today was pretty painful viewing, but I would rather be clear on where we are at.

The whole AFL got carried away with us early this year - flogs like Tim Watson saying we were top 4 already after watching us fall over the line against the cats.

Truth is we have alot of work to do with our young players, and our list has gaps. It’s going to take abit longer to put the pieces together to get us back into that top 4 bracket. And sometimes I think our whole squad could do with an old fashioned skills camp.

We don’t have an academy bubbling away the the swines have it set up. The Cats are much the same as us. In fact, I don’t think their list has any more upside than ours does, probably less actually, and I am not trying to have a go at them right now. Just the way it is.

We have made hard decisions and moving in right direction. It’s just going to be abit longer.

 

[westhawk]

I just don’t understand what our game plan is. Every time we get the ball on the wing or half back, our first instinct is to look out wide or backwards. This was fine when we were elite with the ball, but we are not elite any more. There is no overlap run or taking the game on. We don’t give our forwards a chance. By the time we get it in there, it is that crowded, no one can take a mark.
I want to start seeing some run and carry and take the game on. I can handle it if we make turnovers doing this, but the rubbish we dished up today is painful to watch.

 

[SA HAWK]

That’s my point. Play the kids now to find out about the list.

We’re going to need the depth of this list, coz a massive turnover is looming. Both retirements and delistings. In fact, it started 2 years ago.

We would already be bottom 4 if we hadn't done the Mitchell & O'Meara trades.

 

[tige19]

I believe JOM would have demanded Pick 1, considered best young player, compared to Judd, inside/outside player. Mitchell not so much, more an accumulator. I did not watch JOM closely at Suns but aparently being tagged ahead of Ablett. I just have not seen the footy smarts yet.

I believe his injury has taken away penetration in his kick and obvious explosiveness from the stoppages. In the states the patella injury is almost always considered career ending, in the rarest of occasions players come back but never at the levels they once where.

Jimmy Graham a great example, crazy athletic tight end who dominated the first 4-5 seasons of his NFL, tore his patella and missed 12 months. Has played the last 2 seasons and been pretty good, but has lost a lot of that speed and power and his output has dipped significantly. Gone from a God like figure, many considered on the way to the goat of tight ends, now more of a very good/solid contributor.

 

[dipper86]

The whinging about bombing on our forwards heads is becoming ridiculous. Whilst you may see it as frustrating We’ve done this for atleast two years. We aren’t seeking a contested mark upon the deep bomb but we are looking for a stoppage, a free kick or a rushed kick from the opposition that hits the zone we have set up 70 metres out. Thus why it’s ussually a slower build up before the high kick forward. When we force a turnover we then spot up a lead or switch it against an out of position opposition to the open side of the forward 50. It’s no coincidence we are the best team at stopping rebound 50s and in turn score off their turn overs. Whilst it may seem frustrating at times the team will not honour a 50/50 lead if we don’t have numbers to either pressure or we haven’t zoned behind the ball.

You need to listen to his press conference 'today' he even mentioned "its one thing forward entries its another thing kicking it to our players advantage, we wen't too long and straight. Our inability to take a mark in space etc.

We went into last year year with the same kind of game plan, up until Round 6 where we played multiples behind the ball, providing overlap and carry and in turn we were hitting up more targets from players running into goal.

 

[tige19]

We would already be bottom 4 if we hadn't done the Mitchell & O'Meara trades.

No Mitchell and we'd have Raynor running around for us

 

[HawthornHawk]

I had a feeling we'd lose but not in that manner

Can't imagine we would have been worse off with Howe in the side and Duryea out

 

[Mappa]

Did everyone see Smith give Sicily a word when he didn’t block for him in the pocket?
Sicily didn’t give a toss at that point & Smithy knew it & told him.
Unfortunately it may be a small learning point for the young “star” to play to the siren

Posted after the North loss about Smith having a crack at Sicily during that game as well. Not a good look

 

[sohsam]

and based on today, we are not safe against them either.

Tom Lynch, Josh Kennedy and Taylor Walker wouldn't have taken a single mark inside 50 today combined today. The gameplan and delivery into our forwardline was laughable, atrocious, deplorable and puzzling in equal measures.

As someone said, "stick a fork in us". I'm not one to get caught up in hyperbole too often, but today I am throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Today was the Hawthorn we have to expect for the foreseeable future. We'll see glimpses where we say "we are back" and "that's better", but this has got a distinct 1993 onwards feel about it.

I do not understand Tom Lynch theory either, Gunston/Bruest are sitting fairly high in goal kicking list, they are both very good one on one players and can turn their opponents inside out, the quick transition / delivery is important.

 

[Roughie]

We've been trying this for years and teams have now figured out how to beat it with ease.

Rioli was there early in year and it made little to no difference, especially against Richmond. Teams know how to take Rioli out of it. With the slow build up to the high bomb, teams flood back into Hawthorns F50. They give up the sideways kick and often the switch as long as it allows the stop-start build up.

Once the high ball comes in, they have one player to take Rioli out of the action and the rest of them have the numbers when the ball hit the ground to transition the ball without the rushed kick out. The rush kick happens from time to time, but then it's just a rinse and repeat unsuccessful high ball entry.

The success we have on kicking to leading forwards is incredibly high. When the mark isn't taken, the ball often stays there, which can't be said for the high ball gameplan.

So what you have said is correct; that is the plan, but every coach knows this and every coach knows how to make it ineffective yet the coach is still going to the same dry well thinking it will be full of water.

What's even more frustrating is that against Geelong, for the first 3 quarters, the high ball plan was not used and replaced by looking for leads and players in space. As effective as it was, the same BS high ball plan that hasn't worked for 18 months was then put back in the Plan A slot.

I do not think we are even going for a front a centre crumbing position from the long kicks as crumbing a heavily congested pack situation to kick a goal is as likely as it is to actually take a contested mark. If we can hit front and centre we of course will but we’re more set up to try force a stoppage or a rushed kick out of defence. Today was a prime example of what happens when there is no pressure or the likes of Mitchell Lewis is out of position for the contested marking contest. It leaves us with our midfielders zoning back deep but if we don’t have any forward pressure they can literally run and overlap from their defence which they started to do. They tucked the ball under the arm and ran. We had no pressure at all so Brisbane could over lap or push numbers to the side of the zone they are rebounding on and pick us apart with numbers.

It would be interesting to see how many goals we have kicked from the long bombs wether it’s from a stopage deep, a free kick, or forcing a rushed kick to where we have zoned that in turn leads to a shot on goal

 

[Roughie]

Posted after the North loss about Smith having a crack at Sicily during that game as well. Not a good look

Not a good look for Sicily but he will learn. Good leadership from Smith. I doubt You would ever see Shiels do that

 

[TylerDurden]

We would already be bottom 4 if we hadn't done the Mitchell & O'Meara trades.

No doubt. They were great moves. As I said, club has been planning for this for 2 years now.

 

[Argy]

The whinging about bombing on our forwards heads is becoming ridiculous. Whilst you may see it as frustrating We’ve done this for at least two years.

You mean the same two years we haven't won a final?

 

[Roughie]

So what you have said is correct; that is the plan, but every coach knows this and every coach knows how to make it ineffective yet the coach is still going to the same dry well thinking it will be full of water.

What's even more frustrating is that against Geelong, for the first 3 quarters, the high ball plan was not used and replaced by looking for leads and players in space. As effective as it was, the same BS high ball plan that hasn't worked for 18 months was then put back in the Plan A slot.

I do agree the entry becomes repetitive and predictable. And I would also love to see us honour some leads or atleast posses the ball from around 80m out and have McEvoy or Roughie sit 10m out from the goals so they are deep enough to have the oppositions attention and then we can try drop a midfield lead in to the opened space in the forward line:

I just think Clarko right now has us playing a game plan to try not expose how weak we are defensively where as our forward line is our clear strength. You are right maybe Clarkson should bite the bullet and let us get in shoot outs with teams because our forward line depth can out score the majority of the teams in the league

 

[Thaihawk]

I remember when we would kick back and across to set up loose men on the opposite wing which usually lead to Isaac, Hilly, Sam, Cyril or another forward getting an easy possession which ended with a shot on goal.

Now we go sideways or back because we panic there is nobody to accept, so it's a defensive action which changes the mindset of the kicker, and often creates a turnover, which also leads to a shot on goal, but by the opposition.

We cannot forget our threepeat, as we are continually reminded when see the development of Brisbane's early draft picks compared to our high ones.

We need to pick ourselves up and face some facts. We have a long hard road ahead. We shouldn't get carried away, and judge our kids on their VFL form, but wait until they have played 30 or 40 senior games. And you can get class with high picks, Hardwick at 44 is a great example, and Breust started as a #47 rookie.

If I were a selector, I would have Howe, Glass and O'Meare (if fit) down as ins for next week.

 

[SA HAWK]

We don’t have an academy bubbling away the the swines have it set up. The Cats are much the same as us. In fact, I don’t think their list has any more upside than ours does, probably less actually, and I am not trying to have a go at them right now. Just the way it is.

They will be thereabouts for a few more years yet and seem to have quite a bit more coming through than us.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

and based on today, we are not safe against them either.

Tom Lynch, Josh Kennedy and Taylor Walker wouldn't have taken a single mark inside 50 today combined today. The gameplan and delivery into our forwardline was laughable, atrocious, deplorable and puzzling in equal measures.

As someone said, "stick a fork in us". I'm not one to get caught up in hyperbole too often, but today I am throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Today was the Hawthorn we have to expect for the foreseeable future. We'll see glimpses where we say "we are back" and "that's better", but this has got a distinct 1993 onwards feel about it.

Today did have a whiff of the mid 1990's about it. Journeyman players teamed up with veterans from the clubs golden age (1980s/early 2010's). That is not a good mix going forward.

 

[Roughie]

You mean the same two years we haven't won a final?

Have a look at our list especially our midfield and our backline we aren’t that good. Besides Mitchell and Smith I would’ve took Beams, Christensen, Zorko, McluggAge and even Robinson over the rest of the players we line up in the guts.

It’s a defensive game plan we are playing but it’s because our midfield and backline are extremely average.

 

[SA HAWK]

No doubt. They were great moves. As I said, club has been planning for this for 2 years now.

The baffling ones for me were the recruiting of Vickery & Henderson you don't bring those 2 in unless you think we are still a contender.

I hope Clarko can clearly see where we are at.

 

[lickmerocks]

Not a good look for Sicily but he will learn. Good leadership from Smith. I doubt You would ever see Shiels do that

I am a big Sicily fan but some of his efforts in that last half were bordering on a petulant kid that had thrown his toys out of the cot.

A couple of his second efforts were pathetic and I am sure the coach’s will look at that tape and be a bit concerned.

I would put Sicily in the forward 50 against the Eagles and say “rightio mate turn this game on its head”