List Mgmt. Hawks Major List Problems

[Davo-27]

I don’t reckon Brand and Lovell are gone. Brand is very handy depth and it’s still too early for Lovell

Brand is very inconsistent from my POV, the one thing that may save him is that we may need him as a backup tall defender with Heatherley gone, Frawley ageing and a need for a backup at least, but if we can bring in a better tall defender his position isnt as guaranteed and theres better tall defenders at the second tier football atm...

Lovell ive been following before he got drafted, he was an accumulator type mid in tassie that used to handball and kick sideways only to get a 1-2 with a team mate to pad his stats, now he hasnt been able to pad his stats at Box Hill and has been very poor at the VFL level in general, you want to persist with him? for what reason? pick 26 or whatever the mistake we made was? he is 21, how old do they need to be before you make up your mind? 25? 27? TOB and JOR are 24 have you made up your mind on those players yet? or do you need more time?

every situation is different, Schoenmakers was always a competitive forward who is part of the squad, he can play a role (he is decent but if a better forward comes along i think his position is as guarateed either), Miles was actually a player i pushed for to debut last year, i was happy with how he went, but my criticism of him was always his weight and how that was holding him back from getting more AFL time and if he wasnt willing to put on weight he could go, just because i put players up for possible delisting or trade doesnt mean i dont believe they could do something to change my mind, but with others on our list they wont change my mind.

 

[KermitJagger]

Brand is very inconsistent from my POV, the one thing that may save him is that we may need him as a backup tall defender with Heatherley gone, Frawley ageing and a need for a backup at least, but if we can bring in a better tall defender his position isnt as guaranteed and theres better tall defenders at the second tier football atm...

Lovell ive been following before he got drafted, he was an accumulator type mid in tassie that used to handball and kick sideways only to get a 1-2 with a team mate to pad his stats, now he hasnt been able to pad his stats at Box Hill and has been very poor at the VFL level in general, you want to persist with him? for what reason? pick 26 or whatever the mistake we made was? he is 21, how old do they need to be before you make up your mind? 25? 27? TOB and JOR are 24 have you made up your mind on those players yet? or do you need more time?

every situation is different, Schoenmakers was always a competitive forward who is part of the squad, he can play a role (he is decent but if a better forward comes along i think his position is as guarateed either), Miles was actually a player i pushed for to debut last year, i was happy with how he went, but my criticism of him was always his weight and how that was holding him back from getting more AFL time and if he wasnt willing to put on weight he could go, just because i put players up for possible delisting or trade doesnt mean i dont believe they could do something to change my mind, but with others on our list they wont change my mind.

Lovell is another one where he struggled to get a bit of continuity in his game, so if you followed him that closely you'd know he had a few seasons ruined by multiple injuries. He's also struggled a bit with professionalism from time to time. He's had some good games, some bad games - but he's young enough to let go around again. If the past couple of years have taught us anything it's that maturity can be a big influence in some (not all) players - where you have mature age draftees like Tim Kelly that can come in and make a big impact.

 

[Davo-27]

Lovell is another one where he struggled to get a bit of continuity in his game, so if you followed him that closely you'd know he had a few seasons ruined by multiple injuries. He's also struggled a bit with professionalism from time to time. He's had some good games, some bad games - but he's young enough to let go around again. If the past couple of years have taught us anything it's that maturity can be a big influence in some (not all) players - where you have mature age draftees like Tim Kelly that can come in and make a big impact.

yea but Tim Kelly was a star at WAFL level, Lovell isnt a star or even good at VFL level.

Lovell has played 32 games in the VFL so far (as well as a few for the VFL reserves before they got scrapped this year)and barely does enough to keep his spot, in fact if we didnt have a partnership with Box Hill, he might get dropped.

some players are in the 2nd tier competitions that develop on their own and become stars, why not reward these guys instead of holding onto duds that after 3 years on a list have shown nothing and have people making excuses for all of their failures? this is the question that comes to mind everytime someone defends TOB, Lovell, JOR ect, it makes no sense to me

we rewarded Puopolo and I.Smith back in the day, imagine we had kept onto a Beau Muston and just overlooked I.Smith because you know he can stay on the list because we dont want to make a decision just yet.... or we kept Mitch Thorp on the list and didnt pick up Puopolo because you know you cant get good players at pick 66 we might as well try and develop Mitch Thorp.....

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Brand is very inconsistent from my POV, the one thing that may save him is that we may need him as a backup tall defender with Heatherley gone, Frawley ageing and a need for a backup at least, but if we can bring in a better tall defender his position isnt as guaranteed and theres better tall defenders at the second tier football atm...

Lovell ive been following before he got drafted, he was an accumulator type mid in tassie that used to handball and kick sideways only to get a 1-2 with a team mate to pad his stats, now he hasnt been able to pad his stats at Box Hill and has been very poor at the VFL level in general, you want to persist with him? for what reason? pick 26 or whatever the mistake we made was? he is 21, how old do they need to be before you make up your mind? 25? 27? TOB and JOR are 24 have you made up your mind on those players yet? or do you need more time?

every situation is different, Schoenmakers was always a competitive forward who is part of the squad, he can play a role (he is decent but if a better forward comes along i think his position is as guarateed either), Miles was actually a player i pushed for to debut last year, i was happy with how he went, but my criticism of him was always his weight and how that was holding him back from getting more AFL time and if he wasnt willing to put on weight he could go, just because i put players up for possible delisting or trade doesnt mean i dont believe they could do something to change my mind, but with others on our list they wont change my mind.

You don't seriously think it is a player's decision to put on or take off weight do you?

 

[KermitJagger]

yea but Tim Kelly was a star at WAFL level, Lovell isnt a star or even good at VFL level.

Lovell has played 32 games in the VFL so far (as well as a few for the VFL reserves before they got scrapped this year)and barely does enough to keep his spot, in fact if we didnt have a partnership with Box Hill, he might get dropped.

some players are in the 2nd tier competitions that develop on their own and become stars, why not reward these guys instead of holding onto duds that after 3 years on a list have shown nothing and have people making excuses for all of their failures? this is the question that comes to mind everytime someone defends TOB, Lovell, JOR ect, it makes no sense to me

we rewarded Puopolo and I.Smith back in the day, imagine we had kept onto a Beau Muston and just overlooked I.Smith because you know he can stay on the list because we dont want to make a decision just yet.... or we kept Mitch Thorp on the list and didnt pick up Puopolo because you know you cant get good players at pick 66 we might as well try and develop Mitch Thorp.....

I get what you mean, but the implication here is that there will always be a better person to pick up than the person you've gotten rid of. Sure, if it was a straight swap that we needed to delist Lovell to pick up an Isaac Smith I'd agree - let him loose; but that's not always the case, sometimes it's just better to keep players around instead of dropping them and replacing them with a gamble at pick 60.

 

[Hawk_francais]

Brand is very inconsistent from my POV, the one thing that may save him is that we may need him as a backup tall defender with Heatherley gone, Frawley ageing and a need for a backup at least, but if we can bring in a better tall defender his position isnt as guaranteed and theres better tall defenders at the second tier football atm...

Lovell ive been following before he got drafted, he was an accumulator type mid in tassie that used to handball and kick sideways only to get a 1-2 with a team mate to pad his stats, now he hasnt been able to pad his stats at Box Hill and has been very poor at the VFL level in general, you want to persist with him? for what reason? pick 26 or whatever the mistake we made was? he is 21, how old do they need to be before you make up your mind? 25? 27? TOB and JOR are 24 have you made up your mind on those players yet? or do you need more time?

every situation is different, Schoenmakers was always a competitive forward who is part of the squad, he can play a role (he is decent but if a better forward comes along i think his position is as guarateed either), Miles was actually a player i pushed for to debut last year, i was happy with how he went, but my criticism of him was always his weight and how that was holding him back from getting more AFL time and if he wasnt willing to put on weight he could go, just because i put players up for possible delisting or trade doesnt mean i dont believe they could do something to change my mind, but with others on our list they wont change my mind.

Agreed that Lovell hasn't showed great form this year. However, I don't remember too much stat-padding when I watched him kick 5 against Williamstown a few years ago. He has a penetrating kick, can take a mark and kick a goal on top of his clearance ability. Well worth another look next year. He and O'Rourke have been unlucky, as we had a midfield spot wide open pretty much all 2017 when they were both injured, and now O'Meara has come good and the door is only slightly ajar.

I see Brand and Heatherly both as required players actually, unless O'Brien is seen as a full time backman. We've been pretty lucky with injury the last couple of years, we haven't had KPPs and then KPP replacements go down long-term, but it happens a lot to other teams. I don't want to see poor Dave Mirra standing Ben Brown. We're actually pretty thin at the back, would be nice to see us pick up a player in the 21-27 range in the off-season.

Miles just looks like he's going to make it, his development is a big tick for BH. He has come straight in and knows what to do.

 

[Hawk_francais]

Thread is really quiet...

More like major top 4 problems! amirite?

 

[MasterSamurai]

Thread is really quiet...

More like major top 4 problems! amirite?

Let’s hopefully never need to come here again, burn it to the ground.

 

[bumsonseats]

Thread is really quiet...

More like major top 4 problems! amirite?

We still have some deadwood on our list, and still quite a few list changes over the next few years.
But, great to see the likes of Miles stepping up. One less hole in our list we need to address.

We still need at least one, if not 2 more quality mids, a KPD and and a tall forwar if we are going to consistently be at the pointy end for the next few years.

 

[Davo-27]

we still have an ageing list, i want us to succeed but im not blind to our problems...

this thread is about the future and where we need to head, its not about the here and now, it was brought about by frustration at losses to the Brisbanes and the Carltons and the Gold Coasts and the nearly losses to St Kilda, but am i glad we are successful yes and i hope we continue to be.

thanx for the bump because ill update my points

Burgoyne - probably has another year left, has been decent this year
Roughead - he has played very poorly this year, but im hoping he plays a final year next year to have a swansong year
Birchall - his injury is insane, does he even have it in him to play footy again? no-one knows
Puopolo - he is kicking more goals, but his pressure influence on games has dropped, maybe 1 more year?
Duryea - finally dropped, but i think he can come back and find form, i dont know when that will be
Schoenmakers - i think he has got value, but its more as a squad player, he isnt guaranteed first 22
Whitecross - very likely to get delisted
Langford - i hope he gets delisted this year but most likely 2019
O'Brien - same as Langford
Brand - he seems to be backup incase we have injuries to a tall defender
Heatherley - is out of favour and as a 23 year old needs to be performing or at least a solid squad player to keep his spot
O'Rourke - list clogger
Glass - he just doesnt get AFL footy, he reminds me of Majak Daw, clueless for 6-7 years in his career and now is just an ok player...
Lovell - probably gone, every performance for BHH gets worse
Willsmore* - downhill skiier

2018:

Vickery
Rioli
Whitecross
O'Rourke
Lovell
Heatherley
Willsmore*
(trade Langford or O'Brien maybe even Duryea?)

2019:

Burgoyne
Roughead
Birchall
Puopolo
Glass
Langford
O'Brien

thats my prediction, Duryea, Schoenmakers and Brand could be backups but if we find better back ups they might struggle to hold their spot in a couple of years...

 

[Hawk_francais]

We still have some deadwood on our list, and still quite a few list changes over the next few years.
But, great to see the likes of Miles stepping up. One less hole in our list we need to address.

We still need at least one, if not 2 more quality mids, a KPD and and a tall forwar if we are going to consistently be at the pointy end for the next few years.

The thread is titled MAJOR list problems.

While I don't deny that we need to continue building our list, I think it's equally important to poke fun at the 'realists' in here who wanted to throw the baby out with the bathwater only 6 weeks ago. Top 4, dats wats real

 

[Davo-27]

The thread is titled MAJOR list problems.

While I don't deny that we need to continue building our list, I think it's equally important to poke fun at the 'realists' in here who wanted to throw the baby out with the bathwater only 6 weeks ago. Top 4, dats wats real

address ALL of my points in the OP and come back with what you agree with and what you dont agree with thanks...

btw after my post was made Problem 4 was addressed by the club magically.....

 

[Pessimistic]

we still have an ageing list, i want us to succeed but im not blind to our problems...

this thread is about the future and where we need to head, its not about the here and now, it was brought about by frustration at losses to the Brisbanes and the Carltons and the Gold Coasts and the nearly losses to St Kilda, but am i glad we are successful yes and i hope we continue to be.

thanx for the bump because ill update my points

Burgoyne - probably has another year left, has been decent this year
Roughead - he has played very poorly this year, but im hoping he plays a final year next year to have a swansong year
Birchall - his injury is insane, does he even have it in him to play footy again? no-one knows
Puopolo - he is kicking more goals, but his pressure influence on games has dropped, maybe 1 more year?
Duryea - finally dropped, but i think he can come back and find form, i dont know when that will be
Schoenmakers - i think he has got value, but its more as a squad player, he isnt guaranteed first 22
Whitecross - very likely to get delisted
Langford - i hope he gets delisted this year but most likely 2019
O'Brien - same as Langford
Brand - he seems to be backup incase we have injuries to a tall defender
Heatherley - is out of favour and as a 23 year old needs to be performing or at least a solid squad player to keep his spot
O'Rourke - list clogger
Glass - he just doesnt get AFL footy, he reminds me of Majak Daw, clueless for 6-7 years in his career and now is just an ok player...
Lovell - probably gone, every performance for BHH gets worse
Willsmore* - downhill skiier

2018:

Vickery
Rioli
Whitecross
O'Rourke
Lovell
Heatherley
Willsmore*
(trade Langford or O'Brien maybe even Duryea?)

2019:

Burgoyne
Roughead
Birchall
Puopolo
Glass
Langford
O'Brien

thats my prediction, Duryea, Schoenmakers and Brand could be backups but if we find better back ups they might struggle to hold their spot in a couple of years...

So if they get better replacements that’s good right? I don’t get if you think things are bad, good, getting worse or getting better

I can see the much discussed A graders x12 being there for the next 2-3 years. Only Burgoyne is in your list. The rest will be role players via the normal routes

I’m sure you know where the potential 12 A graders might come from. Some are there already

Make no mistake many wanted to cash in such as Bruest, Gunston, Smith. The narrative was they had been enhanced by having smith hodge etc around and their value would be down by now

It seems the alternate narrative, that there was finals fatigue after 15 finals in four years, practically an extra season.

 

[bumsonseats]

The thread is titled MAJOR list problems.

While I don't deny that we need to continue building our list, I think it's equally important to poke fun at the 'realists' in here who wanted to throw the baby out with the bathwater only 6 weeks ago. Top 4, dats wats real

Don’t be blinded by our ladder position.
Regardless of what happens for the rest of this year, we still need to lift our standard if we are to consistently contend. Will be interesting to see how we go next year with greater expectation.

We will still prob turn over 15 players on our list in the next 3 years.

 

[Hawk_francais]

address ALL of my points in the OP and come back with what you agree with and what you dont agree with thanks...

btw after my post was made Problem 4 was addressed by the club magically.....

No, just no. Your OP is just opinion with zero analysis.

You can't call our players list cloggers, and then call them best 22 the next week, and still expect us to take your opinions on those players seriously.

 

[hk89]

the question that needs to be asked is who has allowed this list to be managed so poorly over the last 3-5 years? this is an absolute disgrace.....

You've made some good points, but your final sentence really summarises how wrong you are. The list was managed in a way that allowed us to win 3 flags. We were superb at doing what was required to make that happen. Most of your good points are a reflection of the consequences of that. However to then say the issues with the list is an absolute disgrace when the decisions were made in order to win the success we won is just massive myopic. It wasn't a disgrace, it was a job well done. The same people that managed to accumulate the three-peat list have now managed to spring us back into top 4 after a relatively bad 2017 (that wasn't actually that bad - we would have played finals if the season was made up of only the last 18 rounds of 2017).

Whoever is managing our list has IMO done an amazing job of transitioning us from the 3-peat era to where we are now. Massively above expectations of pretty much the entire footy world. It always seemed likely this would be a painful period, and yeah, we still have some players to transition out. However don't you think the team that managed to transition out Hale, Lake, Gibson, Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis over the last 3 years and still have us finish top 4 deserves some trust that we can transition out Roughy, Burgoyne, Birchall (effectively transitioned already) and Poppy while bringing in able replacements? You seem to think all these replacements need to be on our list and firing already. Would you have picked the injection of Mitchell, O'Meara and the rise of Sicily, Miles, Morrison, Worpel and Hardwick before it all happened? What makes you think we can't continue down that path? You also seem to confuse list clogger with depth player. Calling for players like Whitecross to be delisted seems to reflect that confusion.

I realise your post comes from a place of concern for the club, and wanting to see them do the best they can, but seriously, calling our list management an absolute disgrace for what has happened in the last 3-5 years is missing the mark by so far it isn't funny, and makes you sound like a spoilt child given what our list management has provided us (3 flags in 3 years), and continues to provide (at least 2 finals this year, and some exciting young prospects).

 

[Davo-27]

So if they get better replacements that’s good right? I don’t get if you think things are bad, good, getting worse or getting better

i was bringing up where we were at and are at, whether we get better depends on how the club reacts

now as you have seen, since July 1 when i made this thread the club has dropped a few players that were playing poorly and given opportunities to a lot of youngsters and squad players, some of which have taken that opportunity and have bettered our team and list overall

so in that sense if we continue to make good decisions like we have since July 1st we are getting better and that is a good thing for everyone.

i am very pleased with how the club has improved through giving opportunities to Worpel, Miles, Schoenmakers and even Nash to slightly improve our position going forward and at the same time recognising that Whitecross, Langford, O'Brien, O'Rourke and Duryea were not the answer.

 

[Davo-27]

You've made some good points, but your final sentence really summarises how wrong you are. The list was managed in a way that allowed us to win 3 flags. We were superb at doing what was required to make that happen. Most of your good points are a reflection of the consequences of that. However to then say the issues with the list is an absolute disgrace when the decisions were made in order to win the success we won is just massive myopic. It wasn't a disgrace, it was a job well done. The same people that managed to accumulate the three-peat list have now managed to spring us back into top 4 after a relatively bad 2017 (that wasn't actually that bad - we would have played finals if the season was made up of only the last 18 rounds of 2017).

Whoever is managing our list has IMO done an amazing job of transitioning us from the 3-peat era to where we are now. Massively above expectations of pretty much the entire footy world. It always seemed likely this would be a painful period, and yeah, we still have some players to transition out. However don't you think the team that managed to transition out Hale, Lake, Gibson, Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis over the last 3 years and still have us finish top 4 deserves some trust that we can transition out Roughy, Burgoyne, Birchall (effectively transitioned already) and Poppy while bringing in able replacements? You seem to think all these replacements need to be on our list and firing already. Would you have picked the injection of Mitchell, O'Meara and the rise of Sicily, Miles, Morrison, Worpel and Hardwick before it all happened? What makes you think we can't continue down that path? You also seem to confuse list clogger with depth player. Calling for players like Whitecross to be delisted seems to reflect that confusion.

I realise your post comes from a place of concern for the club, and wanting to see them do the best they can, but seriously, calling our list management an absolute disgrace for what has happened in the last 3-5 years is missing the mark by so far it isn't funny, and makes you sound like a spoilt child given what our list management has provided us (3 flags in 3 years), and continues to provide (at least 2 finals this year, and some exciting young prospects).

yea that last sentence was hyperbole after a loss, i regret putting it there, i made a mistake, i wont shy away from it.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

It's always interesting looking at what people's realities are.


Some think that the disappointing losses are then the true reflection of where we are at.

Others think that a gutsy win points to how good we actually are.

We have some holes in our list, but are they major? Maybe some more than others, and will they still be their when our 2019 list is finalised.

It's never as good or as bad as it seems, but if our overall year has shown us anything it's that we will continue to find players that some people perhaps didn't know we had.

 

[Brant]

It's always interesting looking at what people's realities are.


Some think that the disappointing losses are then the true reflection of where we are at.

Others think that a gutsy win points to how good we actually are.

We have some holes in our list, but are they major? Maybe some more than others, and will they still be their when our 2019 list is finalised.

It's never as good or as bad as it seems, but if our overall year has shown us anything it's that we will continue to find players that some people perhaps didn't know we had.

Is that you, Ross?

Does that make sense?

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Is that you, Ross?

Does that make sense?

Cardable post.

 

[hawkermitch]

It's interesting to revisit what the list management position was prior to the club winning 6 games in a row and now amazingly, to me anyway
to have the club in the top 4.
I know the changing of a few players around and spark and energy from some youngsters have helped.

The list still has flaws, every club does but with coaching and development things have improved since being in 10th position not long ago.
The club had amazing talent when I was a teen in the mid 80's.
Then a lull for far too long post VFL Park flag of 1991.
Then we saw a build from the 2008 flag to the wonderful three peat.
Players should be happy to be amongst our history and culture that remains upbeat that other clubs supporters can only dream.

I still think the side needs 4 top liners to be a premiership threat - but the current side is displaying that they can win the close
games and history shows that it can drive success earlier than expected.

I look forward to what eventuates this year and predict at least 6 list changes across the list.
The evolution of the list is that it always changes, making the right calls at the right time is the hardest part.

NB- I had to rejoin BF once an old email got hacked so changed emails and rejoined - don't post much but an avid reader of all.

Good luck to the Mighty Hawks and all who love them.

 

[HODGEYROAD]

Full credit goes to Clarko and the players for somehow pulling off a top 4 finish, I still think it's more of a 6-10 type list at present but gee the last month has been enjoyable beating my 3 most hated teams on the way to 4th.

 

[sven_inc]

I posted somewhere that last year was really enjoyable because some guys popped up and announced themselves as players - Burton, Sicily, Hardwick etc.

Earlier this year when we were mid table I mentioned that we probably hadn't seen anyone step up this year to make the grade, which was a little disappointing.

Sitting here now on the verge of another finals appearance its really pleasing to see guys like Worpel, Morrison, Miles and Nash look the part. I wouldnt say Nash is now established as Glass looked fantastic late last year as well, but we have certainly found a few havent we!

 

[PhatHQ]

My glaring need is still an A grade mid.
If Mitchell goes down we are screwed. We have the capacity to cover & probably do ok in his absence but it’s the players that come in & the role changes that are the killer.

We’ve obviously had progression of a couple of the young guys but that only gets you so far & there are always inconsistencies. Clarko knows this & Im sure that’s why we had our hat in the ring for Sloane.

There is stop gap cover on the list but there has to be a Shiel, Gaff, Beams addition to the side as a minimum. Anything on top of that is a bonus.

Big forward.... meh... if there is to be a rule change or not I’d like to think that we have the cattle to run a mobile & direct forward structure off the back of winning 60-65% in the midfield.

We have a stingy defence anyway. I think it will improve next year again but we should certainly be looking at a KPD for the Chip transition or stop gap import.