Opinion Has this Carlton list already peaked?

[Cyclops]

As an outsider Motlop is a worry, had some irritating patches against the Pies where he couldn't be stopped. Small forwards pop up from time to time, I suspect the Carlton gameplan doesn't favour crumbers as much as markers but I may be confusing carts and horses.

Voss has a plan involving two tall forwards, you have to back him in. You never know when the kaleidoscope of rule changes, injuries and emerging player will result in a dream run, 2025 might be the year of the twin towers.

If one goes down it brings Carlton back to mainstream, which would not be a season ending situation. I hate to say it (not wishing injuries on anyone) but you could probably cover Weitering by sticking McKay down back too.

So even in a less good case there's still finals hopes.

Carlton's Achilles heel in my view is leadership, off field and on. Cripps and Voss are the king pieces, if you find more leaders then a rise is on. The idiots on the board seemed to have calmed down and Cripps is effective even when he's injured so thats not critical either.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

As an outsider Motlop is a worry, had some irritating patches against the Pies where he couldn't be stopped. Small forwards pop up from time to time, I suspect the Carlton gameplan doesn't favour crumbers as much as markers but I may be confusing carts and horses.

Voss has a plan involving two tall forwards, you have to back him in. You never know when the kaleidoscope of rule changes, injuries and emerging player will result in a dream run, 2025 might be the year of the twin towers.

If one goes down it brings Carlton back to mainstream, which would not be a season ending situation. I hate to say it (not wishing injuries on anyone) but you could probably cover Weitering by sticking McKay down back too.

So even in a less good case there's still finals hopes.

Carlton's Achilles heel in my view is leadership, off field and on. Cripps and Voss are the king pieces, if you find more leaders then a rise is on. The idiots on the board seemed to have calmed down and Cripps is effective even when he's injured so thats not critical either.

What makes one a leader?

Weitering not one? Newman? Docherty? Walsh?

I don't see how one can judge that from afar

 

[Cyclops]

What makes one a leader?

Weitering not one? Newman? Docherty? Walsh?

I don't see how one can judge that from afar

Yeah its one of those "charisma" or "talent" things.

I feel like you can see a ripple around a leader. Gary Ablett (actually both Abletts) could play blinding, even inhumanly supreme footy, and their team mates seemed unaffected. I'd say exemplary but not leaders.

Tony Shaw stuck his head in a pack, or growled (or encouraged) a team mate and they would visibly straighten up and play harder. you would have seen Kernahan do it.

Cripps has it. Voss had it as captain and is being allowed to do it as coach, and there's been a change to the team IMHO.

Maybe its just how our gameplans match up, but Cripps and perhaps Saad are the leaders I see. Insuffiucient sample size? Sure.

 

[Scotland]

I don't see a lot of obvious improvement in Carlton but with a couple of OK experienced players going out and a top3 pick coming in maybe they are hoping an injection of youth will help, similar to Port when they traded up to get Rozee (and also drafted Butters and Drew).

Biggest problem Carlton have is they are in a log jam of teams that are good but they aren't clearly better than any of them. Two more wins and they make the top 4. One more loss and they're sharing a cell with Essendon.

 

[Golumless]

Hard to say. My thought is they're one-two decent players (or a bit more development from younger lads) off a deep run, as I think they have the superstar talents in place.

 

[Miluxx]

Still at their peak. Pick 3 and the Camporeale twins will inject quality youth and nobody is that old footy wise.

Will the peak get a flag... Hard to say.

I think this is the fairest assessment. I'd give Carlton a pass last season with the injuries they had. If their best 22 stay fit they will do well. But how far that takes them no one knows.

 

[Cyclops]

I think this is the fairest assessment. I'd give Carlton a pass last season with the injuries they had. If their best 22 stay fit they will do well. But how far that takes them no one knows.

Yep, and they can even take some injuries, so long as the timing is right.

Pies 23 had injuries spread across the season but usually had coverage. Our worst batch was the cluster in finals, McStay, Adams and Murphy, with Daics returning and Howe sore. Even then it was spread., with a KPF, a mid and the second KPD.

Overall we lost quite a few injured through the year, but we rarely lost a whole group at a time; maybe we had both rucks out a game or two?

List balance is critical, having 2 backups for your main roles matters. TDK is exciting but I feel he's best as an alternative, a forward who can surprise in the ruck. Pitonet is an ogre to carry the weight all year, I think TDK would get ground down playing regular ruck all year.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Yep, and they can even take some injuries, so long as the timing is right.

Pies 23 had injuries spread across the season but usually had coverage. Our worst batch was the cluster in finals, McStay, Adams and Murphy, with Daics returning and Howe sore. Even then it was spread., with a KPF, a mid and the second KPD.

Overall we lost quite a few injured through the year, but we rarely lost a whole group at a time; maybe we had both rucks out a game or two?

List balance is critical, having 2 backups for your main roles matters. TDK is exciting but I feel he's best as an alternative, a forward who can surprise in the ruck. Pitonet is an ogre to carry the weight all year, I think TDK would get ground down playing regular ruck all year.

TDK is far more ruck than forward. He's got scope to be the best ruck in the game if he can go through a full season unscathed.

Your point about him getting ground down is fair for the time being as he's never really taken on such a load for a whole year yet.

 

[Pistol Night]

What makes one a leader?

Weitering not one? Newman? Docherty? Walsh?

I don't see how one can judge that from afar

Half way between Trump and Albo?

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Half way between Trump and Albo?

 

[carlton_99]

Half way between Trump and Albo?

Which one is supposed to be the competent one?

 

[Pistol Night]

Which one is supposed to be the competent one?

That's why i said half way. Like splitting the difference between a quiet night at home and going on a 3 day bender. Somewhere in the middle is the sensible option

 

[carlton_99]

That's why i said half way. Like splitting the difference between a quiet night at home and going on a 3 day bender. Somewhere in the middle is the sensible option

Probably true but thinking of someone that would represent the middle of those two is giving me a headache

 

[L_W_P]

The biggest question is: Where does the improvement come from?

Jagga Smith is a super talent. Whether he's the 'Joel Selwood' this group needs is yet to be seen but putting a pile of hopes on him to set a standard or change attitudes is a dangerous move.

So we look to the current group:
2x Coleman Medal winners.
A 2x Brownlow winning captain, coming off the GOAT season according to the umps.
A 4x AA Squad FB

They clearly lack a good small/mid size forward and we are about to find out if TDK can hold down the #1 ruck role for a full season. Sort both of those things out and they could improve a little bit forward of centre but, overall, it's one of the more talented lists going around.

So, it has to fall back on the coaches to get more out of this group.

The issue then is: What more is there to get?

They rank highly in scoring, all the key midfield stats and rebound 50s. They are one of the lower ranked teams on intercept possessions, but they sit right in with the Lions and Hawks so it's clearly not a disaster.

They are top 3 for tackles I50 so once they get it in they really lock it down and they score heavily.

The only thing I can point to is team defence.

Last year they conceded 1952 points. Only Essendon (2024), WC (2339), Richmond (2364) and North (2550) conceded more.

So that has to be the focus. Better support for Weitering, less focus on McGovern, Saad and Newman racking up kicks and driving the ball forward and more intent to stop, not just their direct opponent, but to cover for each other with a scheme that stops teams scoring this freely.

If the Blues coaches can tweak the plan to give a little more to the D50, even if it means taking away some entries from the F50, then I think they win more games. They've shown that when they get it inside F50 they are efficient at keeping it there and scoring so a little more defensive focus won't hurt their scoring ability IMO.

I'm not sure what personel changes could drive this.

Has Silvagni played in defence before? I could see him being a bit of a terrier in defence, just playing the man and bringing the ball to ground. I know he has his issues but I didn't mind some of Lewis Young's work either. He's still got potential to turn into a really solid KPD.

Cincotta had some success with tagging roles late. Could that be used to shut down a Zac Bailey or Toby Greene type forward? Less focus on winning the ball, just take your man out of the game or help your teammate do it?

Newman and Doc need to win a spot in the midfield or be replaced by actual small defenders who can shut down a man. Could Cowan or Cotrell be given a role as a small defender? If McGovern isn't capable of intercepting the ball more, and he can't shut down a KPF 1 v 1, then give Young/Silvagni a role.

Blues fans will know more about their own players than I do but I think that's the change I'd be looking to make.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

The biggest question is: Where does the improvement come from?

Jagga Smith is a super talent. Whether he's the 'Joel Selwood' this group needs is yet to be seen but putting a pile of hopes on him to set a standard or change attitudes is a dangerous move.

So we look to the current group:
2x Coleman Medal winners.
A 2x Brownlow winning captain, coming off the GOAT season according to the umps.
A 4x AA Squad FB

They clearly lack a good small/mid size forward and we are about to find out if TDK can hold down the #1 ruck role for a full season. Sort both of those things out and they could improve a little bit forward of centre but, overall, it's one of the more talented lists going around.

So, it has to fall back on the coaches to get more out of this group.

The issue then is: What more is there to get?

They rank highly in scoring, all the key midfield stats and rebound 50s. They are one of the lower ranked teams on intercept possessions, but they sit right in with the Lions and Hawks so it's clearly not a disaster.

They are top 3 for tackles I50 so once they get it in they really lock it down and they score heavily.

The only thing I can point to is team defence.

Last year they conceded 1952 points. Only Essendon (2024), WC (2339), Richmond (2364) and North (2550) conceded more.

So that has to be the focus. Better support for Weitering, less focus on McGovern, Saad and Newman racking up kicks and driving the ball forward and more intent to stop, not just their direct opponent, but to cover for each other with a scheme that stops teams scoring this freely.

If the Blues coaches can tweak the plan to give a little more to the D50, even if it means taking away some entries from the F50, then I think they win more games. They've shown that when they get it inside F50 they are efficient at keeping it there and scoring so a little more defensive focus won't hurt their scoring ability IMO.

I'm not sure what personel changes could drive this.

Has Silvagni played in defence before? I could see him being a bit of a terrier in defence, just playing the man and bringing the ball to ground. I know he has his issues but I didn't mind some of Lewis Young's work either. He's still got potential to turn into a really solid KPD.

Cincotta had some success with tagging roles late. Could that be used to shut down a Zac Bailey or Toby Greene type forward? Less focus on winning the ball, just take your man out of the game or help your teammate do it?

Newman and Doc need to win a spot in the midfield or be replaced by actual small defenders who can shut down a man. Could Cowan or Cotrell be given a role as a small defender? If McGovern isn't capable of intercepting the ball more, and he can't shut down a KPF 1 v 1, then give Young/Silvagni a role.

Blues fans will know more about their own players than I do but I think that's the change I'd be looking to make.

No offense but there's a hell of a lot in here that says u don't really know anything more than a few key names when it comes to our list.

Docherty doesn't even play down back anymore, hasn't in 2 years.

Newman needs to be replaced by someone who can shut down a man? He'd be just about our best rebounder and lock down player.

Could Cowan play as a defender? He's been playing that role his entire career thus far.

I agree on the tweaking some game plan stuff and all the rest, but in terms of rating our list or seeing where the improvement will come from I'm not sure there's really much point in putting what you've written out there given it's clear you don't really know enough about it to judge.

There's some fair summaries of our woes and hopefuls for 2025 in the last few pages, I suggest having a glance at them for future reference.

 

[boncer34]

No offense but there's a hell of a lot in here that says u don't really know anything more than a few key names when it comes to our list.

Docherty doesn't even play down back anymore, hasn't in 2 years.

Newman needs to be replaced by someone who can shut down a man? He'd be just about our best rebounder and lock down player.

Could Cowan play as a defender? He's been playing that role his entire career thus far.

I agree on the tweaking some game plan stuff and all the rest, but in terms of rating our list or seeing where the improvement will come from I'm not sure there's really much point in putting what you've written out there given it's clear you don't really know enough about it to judge.

There's some fair summaries of our woes and hopefuls for 2025 in the last few pages, I suggest having a glance at them for future reference.

In 2022 Docherty lead one of the following categories for Carlton, in 2023 he was top 5. For the other 2 he wasn't top 5 in either year.

They were:

• Rebound 50's
• Clearances
• Inside 50's

Tell me, which one do you think it was?

 

[Arr0w]

In 2022 Docherty lead one of the following categories for Carlton, in 2023 he was top 5. For the other 2 he wasn't top 5 in either year.

They were:

• Rebound 50's
• Clearances
• Inside 50's

Tell me, which one do you think it was?

Most of 2023, Doc played as a defensive wingman, rotating with Acres and Hollands

 

[CCurnow3votes]

I don't see a lot of obvious improvement in Carlton but with a couple of OK experienced players going out and a top3 pick coming in maybe they are hoping an injection of youth will help, similar to Port when they traded up to get Rozee (and also drafted Butters and Drew).

Biggest problem Carlton have is they are in a log jam of teams that are good but they aren't clearly better than any of them. Two more wins and they make the top 4. One more loss and they're sharing a cell with Essendon.

One obvious improvement could be - less injuries.

This could be described as - "an injection of continuity".

Context matters, until it doesn't suit your narrative...

Moving on several injury-prone players, bringing in a new S&C Coach (Inness from Swans).

The natural improvement of an impressive young group.

Adding more speed to our mids, new 3rd talls - back & forward.

There's a clear & present upside to be had.

 

[boncer34]

Most of 2023, Doc played as a defensive wingman, rotating with Acres and Hollands

He was clearly deep for large patches of the game. Arguing he didn't play down back doesn't pass the pub test.

Hollands, for example, had a third of his rebound 50's.

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

He was clearly deep for large patches of the game. Arguing he didn't play down back doesn't pass the pub test.

Hollands, for example, had a third of his rebound 50's.

Docherty has played defensive side wing and midfield for the better part of 2 years now. Sometimes he spends a few minutes down back or something in a rotation but he is no longer a primary defender.

Even the AFL website has him listed as a midfielder.

Setting that aside, it's clear the poster has little understanding of our set ups or our list. To make judgement of what we need to do without first understanding that seems a bit pointless.

 

[Arr0w]

He was clearly deep for large patches of the game. Arguing he didn't play down back doesn't pass the pub test.

Hollands, for example, had a third of his rebound 50's.

There were games Doc played back due to players being out injured, but generally played as a defensive wingman or mid, on front of tge back 6

Pub test is merely a guess, you would have a clearer picture looking at heat maps for all games