Banter Geelong V Richmond - GO!

[Wosh]

In the interests of keeping your back and forth shite fights out of match threads so normal people can talk.

Keep it clean and above the shorts
Off topic rubbish clogging up match threads will be moved here, knock yourselves out.

 

[STPer18]

The emasculation rort.

 

[Mr Meow]

From 2016-2022 … 7 x seasons … Geelong didn’t miss the finals and made 6 x PF and 2 x grand finals. Not sure which metric you’d care to analyse to assess if Geelong of that era were strong or not?

You say you were stronger in 2022 thanks to the addition of Holmes, SDK, Stengle and a few others…

Nah … you were probably weaker as 2017-2020 had peak Danger, peak Selwood, peak Hawkins, quality GAJ, peak Stewart, peak Blicavs…

What was different in 2022? Peak Richmond 2017-2020 weren’t there. If peak Richmond were around Martin probably wins a 4th NS and you’d still be saying Geelong of 2017-2022 weren’t that flash.


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Cameron was a top 5 player in the league 2022 (which overhauled the forward line by itself) and Hawkins had one of his best ever seasons. More midfield depth meant Selwood and Danger were fresh for finals. Stewart was All Australian, Blicavs was an All Australian midfielder (best ever season), Stengle an All Australian small forward, Smith and Holmes arguably the best wing combo in the comp and with Duncan and Zuthrie joining Tuohy at half back an elite rebounding squad. Miers as an advanced playmaking forward, made possible by the addition of Stengle and Close, was a game changer too. An elite, prime aged group of small forwards instead of the cringeworthy "misfits" of 2019-2020 (a very old Ablett was class, Miers kicked a few goals, terrible otherwise).

"But but but it was all the big bad man on the mark rule and Richmond being no good anymore!!!!". Hilarious stuff, but completely brain-dead.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

When you have to pretend to be a supporter from the other side to push your argument, you’ve already lost.

 

[FreddyTwoShoes]

He wasn't bad, but even with him and his 3 goals we still only managed to beat the Tigers by only 3pts in that H&A game in 2022, remembering that the Tigers at this point had their game taken away from them by Hocking.

With Cameron kicking 1 goal against the Tigers in 2023, a further 1 this season, it's not unreasonable to suggest that the Tigers may have kept him goaless in '22 when they were still decent if their game was not taken away from them, not by our coaching team, but by someone from outside our four walls.

“We”. Give it a rest.

 

[PhatBoy]

Seriously we can summarize the whole history thing very cleanly between these two clubs:

GFC has humiliated RFC plenty in the last 3 decades, really hurtfully.

BUT, in a strange twist, RFC owns Geelong 10:2 in finals going back to 1921.
Given 1995 was a GOAT Blues team and Richo had done his knee, only 1931 was realistically taken from RFC by Geelong in finals.

So take your pick, do you prefer to win by 170 points H&A in 2007, with a dominant Brad Ottens rubbing salt in the wound?

Or win the big finals in 1921, 31 (semifinal), 33, 34, 67, 69, 80, 2017, 19, 20?

Since most people won't remember '80 or earlier, the answer is not necessarily obvious.

I’d rather do both….

The only reason you think Geelong were good and not great in that era is because Richmond were beyond good and stood in the way.

The 2017 losing QF team had 8 x All-Australians … 8! It included Geelong royalty and likely hall of famers in Danger, Selwood, Hawkins, Stewart, Taylor, Mackie - most of them at their absolute peak. Plus peak Duncan who many Cats fans argue should be a multiple AA player.

Then the 2019 losing PF team contained 8 x AA players also. The midfield was Danger, Kelly, Selwood and Guthrie at their peak. Plus GAJ who was AA squad member that year.

The 2020 GF team also contained 8 x AA players.

Now I realise there are teams who’ve had more AA players. But this narrative that Cats fans like to peddle out of : ‘we weren’t actually all that good from 2017-2020’ is laughable when your team contains 8 x AA players in each losing final…. which does not include players in those games the calibre of Duncan, Tuohy, Miers, Henry, Dalhaus, Atkins, Menegola, Motlop, Lonergan, Bews, Koladasnij and Henderson.

And it was against peak Danger. Selwood. Hawkins. Stewart. All have 5+ AA guernseys and will be HOF players.

But yeah… team wasn’t all that much chop. Only because despite Geelong being a great team… Richmond were greater.


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Pretty sure you don’t know why he or any other cats fan thinks that.

I’d say the main reason cats fans think we weren’t a great side then is because we weren’t a great side then

If we were a great side we would have had a better win percentage in home and away footy than 67 per cent over that period of four seasons. With one of them involving six less games than normal.

When we were a great side, we had a win percentage of 86 per cent. Across 5 seasons. Of full length.

That’s why we don’t think we were a great side. Because we’d seen when we were a truly great side.

So try again, genius.

We know we weren’t a great team because we were dropping a game every three weeks on average.

Our great side would win every game for a month, sometimes more, on average, then lose one. Over half a decade.

Back to the drawing board.

 

[Footy Smarts]

He wasn't bad, but even with him and his 3 goals we still only managed to beat the Tigers by only 3pts in that H&A game in 2022, remembering that the Tigers at this point had their game taken away from them by Hocking.

With Cameron kicking 1 goal against the Tigers in 2023, a further 1 this season, it's not unreasonable to suggest that the Tigers may have kept him goaless in '22 when they were still decent if their game was not taken away from them, not by our coaching team, but by someone from outside our four walls.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

He wasn't bad, but even with him and his 3 goals we still only managed to beat the Tigers by only 3pts in that H&A game in 2022, remembering that the Tigers at this point had their game taken away from them by Hocking.

With Cameron kicking 1 goal against the Tigers in 2023, a further 1 this season, it's not unreasonable to suggest that the Tigers may have kept him goaless in '22 when they were still decent if their game was not taken away from them, not by our coaching team, but by someone from outside our four walls.

So refreshing to have a Cats supporter on this thread who is as even-handed as all the Tiger supporters Handbaggers.

I think I speak for all Tiger supporters when I say I sincerely hope you get genuine pleasure out of supporting your beloved Cats. Unlike the likes of PhatBoy & Mr Meow you seem capable of actually enjoying your team. That pair wouldn't smile if they were getting it.

Go well mate.

 

[Mr Meow]

So refreshing to have a Cats supporter on this thread who is as even-handed as all the Tiger supporters Handbaggers.

I think I speak for all Tiger supporters when I say I sincerely hope you get genuine pleasure out of supporting your beloved Cats. Unlike the likes of PhatBoy & Mr Meow you seem capable of actually enjoying your team. That pair wouldn't smile if they were getting it.

Go well mate.

Hope you enjoyed bingo mate, you're always in a much cheerier mood afterwards. Monday through Friday you get the old man cranky pants back, so probably best to limit screen time while that's the case.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Cats fans(Handbaggers excepted) other threads:

"We are great because we give ourselves a chance every year. Great because we have an 18 year dynasty. Great because we consistently win a high volume of games. Great because we are always around the top 4."

Same Cats fans this thread when it is pointed out Tigers beat their ass in 3 finals on the way to a trio of Tiger flags, aka a dynasty(during the 18 year Cats "dynasty"):

"That is because we weren't great then."

 

[PhatBoy]

So refreshing to have a Cats supporter on this thread who is as even-handed as all the Tiger supporters Handbaggers.

I think I speak for all Tiger supporters when I say I sincerely hope you get genuine pleasure out of supporting your beloved Cats. Unlike the likes of PhatBoy & Mr Meow you seem capable of actually enjoying your team. That pair wouldn't smile if they were getting it.

Go well mate.

Quite the opposite.

 

[Mr Meow]

Cats fans(Handbaggers excepted) other threads:

"We are great because we give ourselves a chance every year. Great because we have an 18 year dynasty. Great because we consistently win a high volume of games. Great because we are always around the top 4."

Same Cats fans this thread when it is pointed out Tigers beat their ass in 3 finals on the way to a trio of Tiger flags, aka a dynasty(during the 18 year Cats "dynasty"):

"That is because we weren't great then."

Richmond supporters:

"Our success and Geelong's finals failures 2017-2020 were entirely down to a man being able to shuffle around on the mark. If the CFL didn't plot our downfall Richmond's dynasty would've extended to 2025 and Geelong would be collecting wooden spoons right now."

The gift that keeps on giving.

 

[Mr Meow]

Meteoric Rise when his Tigers mate (grandson?) imminently gets his 500th account banned.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Meteoric Rise when his Tigers mate (grandson?) imminently gets his 500th account banned.

Good to see you at least attempting to be humorous.

Interesting though that as soon as a realistic and gracious Cats supporter comes along you want the account banned.

 

[PhatBoy]

This is why I believe the Tigers cost us 3 flags, in '17 & '19 we ended up above them and were better than them, and even in 2020 when the Tigers were above us at the end of the H&A everyone had us winning that flag until we were comfortably beaten by them in the rnd 17 game of that season. So those Tigers did cost us 3 flags and that's not up for debate if we're being honest.

Of course as Geelong supporters we prefer to believe we weren't that good from '17 to '20 and better in 2022 so it doesn't look like Hocking's game plan was the reason we won that flag in '22. But if you think about it, we only beat the Tigers by 3 pts when they weren't allowed to play their game, and we can't say that they were better in 2022 than from '17 to '20.

Sure mate.

 

[PhatBoy]

Good to see you at least attempting to be humorous.

Interesting though that as soon as a realistic and gracious Cats supporter comes along you want the account banned.

This is what you’re reduced to?

 

[Meteoric Rise]

This is what you’re reduced to?

What you are calling reduction is actually ascension.

 

[Mr Meow]

Not at all. We wish you a speedy recovery and hope to meet in another final before 2050.

Handbaggers FC I already wished the mighty Tiges well, as I have many times in this thread. The rivalry ended when they chose obscurity. Geelong are located up in the relevant part of the ladder. I mostly come here to calm down the ferals when their Geelong hatred remains surprisingly apparent. At least Meteoric Rise admits the loathing has not subsided.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Everybody knows the holy grail in the AFL is the finals rule of 8.

This is what all clubs seek.

It is why the Cats were so upset about being smashed & humiliated by the Tigers in the 2020 Grand Final. It brought the rivalry into finals rule of 8 terrain. Only 3 clubs have achieved an 8+ win finals domination over a rival club. And two of those clubs are Richmond.

Teams with an 8 or more win surplus in finals over a rival team in the history of the competition:

1. Richmond 16w 1d 6l v Carlolton

2. Melbourne 16w 1d 6l v Lollingwood

3. Richmond 10w 2l v Geelol


Next week viewers, please tune in when we will provide a list of finals rule of 5 teams. This is the short list of teams who have won at least 5 x as many finals as they have lost against a particular opponent.

The following week we can delve into exactly how many rivalries meet the entry requirements for both the finals rule of 8 & the finals rule of 5. We are led to believe this list is extremely short.

 

[Mr Meow]

Everybody knows the holy grail in the AFL is the finals rule of 8.

This is what all clubs seek.

It is why the Cats were so upset about being smashed & humiliated by the Tigers in the 2020 Grand Final. It brought the rivalry into finals rule of 8 terrain. Only 3 clubs have achieved an 8+ win finals domination over a rival club. And two of those clubs are Richmond.

Teams with an 8 or more win surplus in finals over a rival team in the history of the competition:

1. Richmond 16w 1d 6l v Carlolton

2. Melbourne 16w 1d 6l v Lollingwood

3. Richmond 10w 2l v Geelol


Next week viewers, please tune in when we will provide a list of finals rule of 5 teams. This is the short list of teams who have won at least 5 x as many finals as they have lost against a particular opponent.

The following week we can delve into exactly how many rivalries meet the entry requirements for both the finals rule of 8 & the finals rule of 5. We are led to believe this list is extremely short.

My favourite rule for excellence in the national era is the equation: premierships - wooden spoons. One's a big tick, one's a black mark.

Richmond with 3-3 = 0. Having an even ratio isn't too bad but it isn't elite. They've been the worst side in the comp as many times as the best. North Melbourne and Western Bulldogs are two other sides on 0 after running this equation.

Geelong with 4-0 = 4. Now that's pretty nice.

 

[Noidnadroj]

Cameron was a top 5 player in the league 2022 (which overhauled the forward line by itself) and Hawkins had one of his best ever seasons. More midfield depth meant Selwood and Danger were fresh for finals. Stewart was All Australian, Blicavs was an All Australian midfielder (best ever season), Stengle an All Australian small forward, Smith and Holmes arguably the best wing combo in the comp and with Duncan and Zuthrie joining Tuohy at half back an elite rebounding squad. Miers as an advanced playmaking forward, made possible by the addition of Stengle and Close, was a game changer too. An elite, prime aged group of small forwards instead of the cringeworthy "misfits" of 2019-2020 (a very old Ablett was class, Miers kicked a few goals, terrible otherwise).

"But but but it was all the big bad man on the mark rule and Richmond being no good anymore!!!!". Hilarious stuff, but completely brain-dead.

Yet this superior team of 2022 with all these new ‘guns’ finished 12th in 2023 with just 10 wins… hmmmm…

Here is a list of players to play 18+ games for Cats in 2023:

Stewart
Dangerfield
I smith
Bruhn
Atkins
Holmes
Miers
Tuohy
Z Guthrie
Cameron
Blicavs
o’Connor
Close
SDk
Kolajashni
Stengle
Tomahawk
O Henry

18 x players with 18+ games out of a possible 23. Yet finished 12th.



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[Noidnadroj]

Cats fans(Handbaggers excepted) other threads:

"We are great because we give ourselves a chance every year. Great because we have an 18 year dynasty. Great because we consistently win a high volume of games. Great because we are always around the top 4."

Same Cats fans this thread when it is pointed out Tigers beat their ass in 3 finals on the way to a trio of Tiger flags, aka a dynasty(during the 18 year Cats "dynasty"):

"That is because we weren't great then."

And every AA selection has been well earned, with superstars and hall of famers galore .. 8 x AA in each of their finals losses to the Tigers across 2017-2020 (plus peak Duncan, peak Tuohy and others ) ….. but but the Cats forums could tell you we didn’t think we were much chop from 2017-2020.

We were great from 2007-2016 …. and great again from 2021, where only widespread illness cost us in 2021… but during that era of 2017-2020 where we finished 2nd, 8th, 1st and 4th and had AA’s at their peak coming out of our proverbial … well, despite being Premiers in 2019 and 2020 if Richmond weren’t around, we really weren’t that good.


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[STPer18]

Damn, looks like old mate got taken care of again. Until the next account (likely tomorrow), my friend.

 

[Mr Meow]

Yet this superior team of 2022 with all these new ‘guns’ finished 12th in 2023 with just 10 wins… hmmmm…

Here is a list of players to play 18+ games for Cats in 2023:

Stewart
Dangerfield
I smith
Bruhn
Atkins
Holmes
Miers
Tuohy
Z Guthrie
Cameron
Blicavs
o’Connor
Close
SDk
Kolajashni
Stengle
Tomahawk
O Henry

18 x players with 18+ games out of a possible 23. Yet finished 12th.



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Easily answered, 2022 was the last great year for a number of players: Hawkins, Selwood, Smith, Duncan and Tuohy for starters. It wasn't an age profile where that very old senior core would be able to carry it further, so a handover of sorts took place which bore fruit in 2024.

In 2023 Cameron went from top 5 to about a top 40 player in the league. Selwood's loss was felt keenly for a number of reasons. SDK and Kolo had poor seasons so the defence was shaky, in 2022 they were impeccable.

By 2024 several players in the 20-25 year old bracket took over and carried the side very close to a GF appearance while the veterans (mostly) continued to decline. Compare the 2024 versions of Cam Guthrie, Hawkins, Dangerfield, Stewart, Blicavs, Duncan, Tuohy, Stanley, Bews to 2022. They went from the core of the team to peripheral, or lesser versions of their old selves. Same happened to Richmond. Meanwhile Holmes, Stengle, Zuthrie, Miers and co (plus some newer players) were some of the side's MVPs.

Just because 2022 didn't carry on, doesn't mean it was a weaker side than 2017-2020. The 2022 side would've sliced the 2017-2020 team apart in the same way the 2007-2011 team would've dominated them.

 

[PhatBoy]

Yet this superior team of 2022 with all these new ‘guns’ finished 12th in 2023 with just 10 wins… hmmmm…

Here is a list of players to play 18+ games for Cats in 2023:

Stewart
Dangerfield
I smith
Bruhn
Atkins
Holmes
Miers
Tuohy
Z Guthrie
Cameron
Blicavs
o’Connor
Close
SDk
Kolajashni
Stengle
Tomahawk
O Henry

18 x players with 18+ games out of a possible 23. Yet finished 12th.



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

lol, what does that even mean? Selwood had gone altogether, Dangerfield missed 5 games, Duncan missed 7, Rohan missed 8, Jack Henry missed 12, Stanley missed 10, SDK and Stengle missed four each.

We underwhelmed, sure, and should have done a better job defending our title but we were still in finals contention until a fortnight from the end of the regular season and Still managed 10 wins, and making out like we just wheeled out exactly the same team each week as the one that beat Sydney is somewhat misleading.


Hang on, I just realised who I’m replying to.

 

[Mr Meow]

And every AA selection has been well earned, with superstars and hall of famers galore .. 8 x AA in each of their finals losses to the Tigers across 2017-2020 (plus peak Duncan, peak Tuohy and others ) ….. but but the Cats forums could tell you we didn’t think we were much chop from 2017-2020.

We were great from 2007-2016 …. and great again from 2021, where only widespread illness cost us in 2021… but during that era of 2017-2020 where we finished 2nd, 8th, 1st and 4th and had AA’s at their peak coming out of our proverbial … well, despite being Premiers in 2019 and 2020 if Richmond weren’t around, we really weren’t that good.


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A side's greatness isn't dictated by AA selections alone because it isn't 5 vs 5. It's 22 vs 22 and with the required squad depth its really 28 vs 28 during any premiership challenge. Otherwise Carlton would've been top 4 shoe ins the previous 2 seasons.

More inaccuracies from you as well I see. 2014-2016 Geelong was considerably weaker than 2017-2020. 2013 didn't have a viable forward line with Hawkins stuffed back and Johnson required in midfield, but was very good otherwise (its flaws were exposed in the 2 finals it lost though). 2021 Geelong weren't much chop as Cameron had a poor season, Holmes/SDK hadn't burst on the scene, there was no Stengle and Blicavs was stuck in defence rather than an AA midfielder to take the load off Dangerfield/Selwood. Duncan wasn't able to be released into the halfback playmaker role.

So in reality 2013-2021 Geelong were a good but not outstanding team, which makes sense in terms of its finals results to not just Richmond but all the clubs it played. 2022 the flaws were addressed just before a number of veterans left or had their form finally fall off a cliff.

"But but it was a rule change and Richmond not being in the way anymore...forget about the finals lessons dished out by Sydney, Adelaide, Melbourne, Collingwood, Port Adelaide over 2016-2021"