List Mgmt. Forwardline woes

[netslave]

I’m actually not sure I rate Kossie‘s crumbing. He also doesn’t do as much damage at forward stoppages as he could. Maybe he just gets a lot of oppo attention at these times but they’re not strengths of his game.

He should stick near the feet of BBB but he's flying for marks against our tall forwards as well as being involved in our forward defensive zone.
Goody should just give him free reign to roam around the F50 and boot some more goals, hes got all our forwards focused of defense first it seems.
You would expect a small forward to have patches of quiet during the game but he needs more consistency.

 

[SugarHealey]

He should stick near the feet of BBB but he's flying for marks against our tall forwards as well as being involved in our forward defensive zone.

If hes up-field defending, then on-turnover after winning the ball back, we kick (when on offence) to the HF-line, he should be able to hit the
front-and-centre, on his run back thru.

 

[dazzledavey36]

The issue itself is the flawed game plan we've been running all year.

Our game plan simply does not suit our forward structure nor does it play into their strengths whatsoever.

It's a flawed system because obviously our number one instinct is to immediately bomb to the deep pockets in a pack situation to a guy (Ben Brown

50

Ben Brown

Age

31

Ht

200cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.7

3star

K

7.7

3star

HB

3.0

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.2

3star

G

2.2

5star

D

7.9

2star

K

6.3

3star

HB

1.6

1star

M

3.7

4star

T

0.9

2star

G

1.0

4star

D

8.0

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.4

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.4

4star

G

1.2

4star

) that simply does not even suit his strength whatsoever. We're trying to turn him into a pack marking beast when it's evident that's absolutely the opposite to what he is and has been his whole career.

If you watch some of his YouTube vision from his North days where he kicked 60 plus goals a season 3 years in a row there is a significant stark difference to how North played him compared to how we do. North had a game plan that was built around quick ball movement with ability to slingshot off half back with a high level of speed on the ball carrier.

This suited Brown because he played that hit up at the ball carrier where his starting point was from the middle of the goal square and lead hard straight towards forward 50 CHF. He also had a Jarrad Waite

Jarrad Waite

Age

41

Ht

194cm

Wt

96kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.3

4star

K

9.8

4star

HB

4.5

3star

M

5.8

5star

T

2.7

4star

G

1.5

5star

No current season stats available

D

9.4

3star

K

6.2

3star

HB

3.2

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.2

4star

G

0.6

3star

as a forward partnership which meant sometimes he would get the 2nd best defender at times whereas this year he's had Bailey Fritsch or Jake Melksham

18

Jake Melksham

Age

32

Ht

186cm

Wt

85kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.2

2star

K

5.8

2star

HB

3.3

3star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.2

3star

G

0.8

4star

D

9.2

2star

K

5.8

2star

HB

3.3

2star

M

3.0

3star

T

1.2

2star

G

0.8

4star

D

9.2

3star

K

5.6

3star

HB

3.6

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

1.2

3star

G

0.8

4star

for goodness sake as his 2nd key forward.

Now our game plan is based around slow ball movement with a hint of chaos in just slamming the ball on the boot from the stoppages with the aim of just getting it inside forward 50 at all costs. Once it's in there we then back our smalls to lock it in inside out forward 50, but again this year they've been super disappointing in this aspect as we had built our game last year from forward half turnovers and were ranked number 1 in the competitionfor this. I'm pretty sure this year we're ranked 17th which is pretty damming.

The issue with this though? Slow ball movement which means defenders and opposition ruckman now have time to get back and not only sit in the hole, but double team Ben Brown

50

Ben Brown

Age

31

Ht

200cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.7

3star

K

7.7

3star

HB

3.0

3star

M

4.8

5star

T

1.2

3star

G

2.2

5star

D

7.9

2star

K

6.3

3star

HB

1.6

1star

M

3.7

4star

T

0.9

2star

G

1.0

4star

D

8.0

2star

K

4.6

2star

HB

3.4

3star

M

4.4

4star

T

1.4

4star

G

1.2

4star

.

While all of this is happening, we've slowed play down at a half forward flank and then without wanting to pick out an option inside forward 50, predictability kicks in and we just bang it high to a pack situation onto the heads of Brown who has two blokes hanging off him, and Fritsch as well.

This is either knocked over for a boundary throw in or opposition ruckman have picked it off like Hickey did a few times on Friday night. With our lack of forward pressure this year defenders are now able to waltz away so easily and began a fast transition that slices through our defence. How many times did Collingwood do this few weeks back? Exposed us big time.

This system has been used all year and even though we had early wins I knew this could not be sustainable because the top teams would be able to counteract this. I remember a few had voice their concerns on here around the sustainability around this also.

The most bizarre thing about this year is Goody's stubbornness and unwillingness to tweak this, or even show a hint of change to the forward structure or the way we deliver the footy inside 50. I've almost hated watching games this year because we've now just become so bloody predictable with this and you can immediately tell how the game will unfold right in front of our eyes.

It wouldn't matter if we brought in Matthew Lloyd or Tony Lockett

Tony Lockett

Age

58

Ht

191cm

Wt

108kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.2

3star

K

8.4

3star

HB

1.8

2star

M

6.3

5star

T

0.5

3star

G

4.8

5star

No current season stats available

D

8.2

2star

K

5.6

3star

HB

2.6

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

0.0

1star

G

1.4

5star

next year. If we don't fix up this flawed system and ball movement in the off season then we're simply wasting our times and we'll just be flat track bullies all over again next year. No point bringing in better key forwards if we're not going use it to their advantage and strengths.

 

[Tulip]

I’m actually not sure I rate Kossie‘s crumbing. He also doesn’t do as much damage at forward stoppages as he could. Maybe he just gets a lot of oppo attention at these times but they’re not strengths of his game.

His crumbing is very good, he just needs to be better and front and centre stoppage work in the F50. Garlett was a master of that when he was with us. His biggest strength.

 

[schmuttt]

The issue itself is the flawed game plan we've been running all year.

Our game plan simply does not suit our forward structure nor does it play into their strengths whatsoever.

It's a flawed system because obviously our number one instinct is to immediately bomb to the deep pockets in a pack situation to a guy (Ben Brown) that simply does not even suit his strength whatsoever. We're trying to turn him into a pack marking beast when it's evident that's absolutely the opposite to what he is and has been his whole career.

If you watch some of his YouTube vision from his North days where he kicked 60 plus goals a season 3 years in a row there is a significant stark difference to how North played him compared to how we do. North had a game plan that was built around quick ball movement with ability to slingshot off half back with a high level of speed on the ball carrier.

This suited Brown because he played that hit up at the ball carrier where his starting point was from the middle of the goal square and lead hard straight towards forward 50 CHF. He also had a Jarrad Waite as a forward partnership which meant sometimes he would get the 2nd best defender at times whereas this year he's had Bailey Fritsch or Jake Melksham for goodness sake as his 2nd key forward.

Now our game plan is based around slow ball movement with a hint of chaos in just slamming the ball on the boot from the stoppages with the aim of just getting it inside forward 50 at all costs. Once it's in there we then back our smalls to lock it in inside out forward 50, but again this year they've been super disappointing in this aspect as we had built our game last year from forward half turnovers and were ranked number 1 in the competitionfor this. I'm pretty sure this year we're ranked 17th which is pretty damming.

The issue with this though? Slow ball movement which means defenders and opposition ruckman now have time to get back and not only sit in the hole, but double team Ben Brown.

While all of this is happening, we've slowed play down at a half forward flank and then without wanting to pick out an option inside forward 50, predictability kicks in and we just bang it high to a pack situation onto the heads of Brown who has two blokes hanging off him, and Fritsch as well.

This is either knocked over for a boundary throw in or opposition ruckman have picked it off like Hickey did a few times on Friday night. With our lack of forward pressure this year defenders are now able to waltz away so easily and began a fast transition that slices through our defence. How many times did Collingwood do this few weeks back? Exposed us big time.

This system has been used all year and even though we had early wins I knew this could not be sustainable because the top teams would be able to counteract this. I remember a few had voice their concerns on here around the sustainability around this also.

The most bizarre thing about this year is Goody's stubbornness and unwillingness to tweak this, or even show a hint of change to the forward structure or the way we deliver the footy inside 50. I've almost hated watching games this year because we've now just become so bloody predictable with this and you can immediately tell how the game will unfold right in front of our eyes.

It wouldn't matter if we brought in Matthew Lloyd or Tony Lockett next year. If we don't fix up this flawed system and ball movement in the off season then we're simply wasting our times and we'll just be flat track bullies all over again next year. No point bringing in better key forwards if we're not use it to their advantage and strengths.

Completely agree mate. The way we move the ball is horrific and it doesn't matter who we have up forward. I do agree we need to look to change our forwardline mix but IMO that is a different argument because last year we had no issues moving the ball against the good sides with literally the same personnel.

 

[dazzledavey36]

Completely agree mate. The way we move the ball is horrific and it doesn't matter who we have up forward. I do agree we need to look to change our forwardline mix but IMO that is a different argument because last year we had no issues moving the ball against the good sides with literally the same personnel.

Opposition teams have simply worked us out.

This goes right back to the Hawthorn game when Sam Mitchell started the domino effect by playing an aggressive fast style that could stifle through our zone if you're able to get speed on the ball carrier.

He set the blueprint and teams have used that this against us.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Does my ******* head in these useless campaigners play two rucks and still don’t have a ruckman at every throwin. IF WE BASE OUR GAME OFF LOCKING IT IN WHY THE * DO WE GIVE AWAY THROW INS

This is why some of us have been banging on about needing to play 3 rucks in the side next year mate, only further proof of that. Maybe we need 4?

 

[stEdy]

There's nothing wrong with booting it to the pocket and minimise the chances of being cut up on turnover if you do it SOMETIMES and only when needed - such as if we're under the pump and need the defence to re-settle, or looking to stem the tide a bit.

The problem is we do it so often that it's killed many of the natural instincts of our most attacking and skilled players and made it super easy to defend against because every single person at the ground knows EXACTLY where we are going to put it.

I also don't understand why we do it at the start of the game when we are on top and looking to set the tone for the game. We have a chance to take the ascendency and put the Swans defenders under the pump and instead we send it into the pocket. They would be breathing sighs of relief.

The only time we look fluent and seemingly have license to go fast and direct is from a centre bounce. Finals series last year was amazing for this but clearly not a strategy that we can bank on every game to kick a big chunk of our scores from. There were brief instances when we take a riskier kick, but when it doesn't work out (Gawn kick to Hunt, which he should never have taken and May's kick to Petty in the middle that just missed) we quickly go into our shell and go back to long, straight lines.

Our whole strategy and team selection is based around consistency of effort, cohesion and everyone playing their role. When it comes off we look like a well oiled machine, but this year when the system starts to fray in the last quarter that 'cohesion' turns into predictability which turns stale and robs us of any chance to up the ante and create some momentum. Most worrying thing for me this year is we've only turned it around once in the last and that was against a chronically choking Carlton team.

On personnel, having Nibbler badly down on form is hurting us. As is having Kozzy and Fritta going large stretches of the game without getting their hands on the footy. Our smalls are handy, but Kozzy is the only one with pace and skills to really worry defenders and he still finds himself drifting in and out of games (not his fault, he's still only 21). Spargo, Nibbler and Sparrow resting down there aren't a threat at ground level and can't turn defenders inside out and get out the back. Would like to see Kozzy thrown up around the ball more if he's had a quiet quarter just to get him involved.

 

[deeco]

This is why some of us have been banging on about needing to play 3 rucks in the side next year mate, only further proof of that. Maybe we need 4?

Look, I think we need to get 6 FF/Ruck combo players this draft and maybe for the next 4 drafts so that a few of them stick and we can keep our window closed but be successful

 

[Topkent]

Sparrow ANB and Spargo haven't had a top 5 on the ground game once between them, that's a worry. Because if the other guys don't fire it's over and that's too few

 

[stEdy]

One play that highlighted how 'in our own heads' as a team we are about the way to move the ball forward was when we were kicking to the city end and Gawn got a mark or free kick about 70 from home on a fast-ish play, we had Harmes streaming into the square with a 1v1 and heaps of space around him and a few other players with 1v1s. Gawn then holds the ball up for a good 20 seconds, Swans flood back, he pumps it in to the pocket for no gain.

Harmes is a great mark and strong 1v1 player. You need to trust your team-mates forward of the ball and get it into them. Now Gawn might be thinking "hey, i've fluffed a few kicks already, maybe I dont want to try and pick out a team-mate" That's fine. But a runner has to see that Gawn has got the ball and call for the handball to keep the ball in motion and keep the Swans defenders under the pump. The whole ground was screaming for the ball to get in quick and direct and give Harmesy a chance of a strong mark in the square and goal

We killed them in the air all night and it's so easy to break a line with a handball to a running player after a mark to break up the play and give the forwards a chance to slip out the back by catching the defenders changing direction or back-pedalling.

 

[Topkent]

One play that highlighted how 'in our own heads' as a team we are about the way to move the ball forward was when we were kicking to the city end and Gawn got a mark or free kick about 70 from home on a fast-ish play, we had Harmes streaming into the square with a 1v1 and heaps of space around him and a few other players with 1v1s. Gawn then holds the ball up for a good 20 seconds, Swans flood back, he pumps it in to the pocket for no gain.

Harmes is a great mark and strong 1v1 player. You need to trust your team-mates forward of the ball and get it into them. Now Gawn might be thinking "hey, i've fluffed a few kicks already, maybe I dont want to try and pick out a team-mate" That's fine. But a runner has to see that Gawn has got the ball and call for the handball to keep the ball in motion and keep the Swans defenders under the pump. The whole ground was screaming for the ball to get in quick and direct and give Harmesy a chance of a strong mark in the square and goal

We killed them in the air all night and it's so easy to break a line with a handball to a running player after a mark to break up the play and give the forwards a chance to slip out the back by catching the defenders changing direction or back-pedalling.

Gawn never handballs off, he's too ****ing arrogant and tries to be Dean Cox and Jim Stynes rolled into one. Shits me to tears.

 

[stEdy]

Jack Riewoldt apparently been low balled by the Tiges, would ya give him a 1 year contract using some of Dogga's money? Entice him with a chance to win another flag

EDIT: Maybe even a J Lewis style 2 year contract with a coaching role attached

 

[Topkent]

Jack Riewoldt apparently been low balled by the Tiges, would ya give him a 1 year contract using some of Dogga's money? Entice him with a chance to win another flag

EDIT: Maybe even a J Lewis style 2 year contract with a coaching role attached

He's not leaving the Tigers for a one year deal with us unless they delist him

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Gawn never handballs off, he's too ******* arrogant and tries to be Dean Cox and Jim Stynes rolled into one. Shits me to tears.

Thats the problem when you build a game plan around him in the forward line, he starts to believe he is one.

 

[LarryDavidNeitz]

Goodwin doesn’t seem to get that you can’t expect small forwards like Kosi and Spargo to be effective unless they have space. There’s no point them knowing where the ball is going when every other player on the ground does as well and we’ve waited for them all to get there before we kick it. Even if they hit the best front and square of all time they run smack into the entire opposition.

Get it to a 1v1 quickly and let Kosi use his pace to be the next man arriving and he’ll kick 50 goals next year.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

He's not leaving the Tigers for a one year deal with us unless they delist him

Stop being so pessimistic all the time Topkentster

 

[Topkent]

Goodwin doesn’t seem to get that you can’t expect small forwards like Kosi and Spargo to be effective unless they have space. There’s no point them knowing where the ball is going when every other player on the ground does as well and we’ve waited for them all to get there before we kick it. Even if they hit the best front and square of all time they run smack into the entire opposition.

Get it to a 1v1 quickly and let Kosi use his pace to be the next man arriving and he’ll kick 50 goals next year

Look at how he shelled peas against the Lions, it's because Brisbane don't defend deep they push up the ground and defend one on one and Koz looked like he was playing out in the bush.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Goodwin doesn’t seem to get that you can’t expect small forwards like Kosi and Spargo to be effective unless they have space. There’s no point them knowing where the ball is going when every other player on the ground does as well and we’ve waited for them all to get there before we kick it. Even if they hit the best front and square of all time they run smack into the entire opposition.

Get it to a 1v1 quickly and let Kosi use his pace to be the next man arriving and he’ll kick 50 goals next year.

100%, I dont know any small forward who can thrive with 30 players around him. I get Kozzy is shifty but unless hes Neo in the Martix hes got no hope in general. Its little wonder he gets most of his goals from marks and set shots.

 

[Topkent]

Stop being so pessimistic all the time Topkentster

I'm a Melbourne fan it's in my DNA
#spirit whatever the **** it was

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

There is a saying in poker: scared money dont make money...I think this a great way to desribe our game style in 2022.

So concerned about keeping the opposition scores down that we cant kick one ourselves. Playing safe only gets you so far, sure, it might get you to the finals (you make the cash and a bit of profit in a poker tournament) but if youre too scared to take risks with the footy (bluff or call down an opponent light) youre never winning the grand final (shipping the entire tournament and a heap of cash)

 

[The Dr]

There's nothing wrong with booting it to the pocket and minimise the chances of being cut up on turnover if you do it SOMETIMES and only when needed - such as if we're under the pump and need the defence to re-settle, or looking to stem the tide a bit.

The problem is we do it so often that it's killed many of the natural instincts of our most attacking and skilled players and made it super easy to defend against because every single person at the ground knows EXACTLY where we are going to put it.

I also don't understand why we do it at the start of the game when we are on top and looking to set the tone for the game. We have a chance to take the ascendency and put the Swans defenders under the pump and instead we send it into the pocket. They would be breathing sighs of relief.

The only time we look fluent and seemingly have license to go fast and direct is from a centre bounce. Finals series last year was amazing for this but clearly not a strategy that we can bank on every game to kick a big chunk of our scores from. There were brief instances when we take a riskier kick, but when it doesn't work out (Gawn kick to Hunt, which he should never have taken and May's kick to Petty in the middle that just missed) we quickly go into our shell and go back to long, straight lines.

Our whole strategy and team selection is based around consistency of effort, cohesion and everyone playing their role. When it comes off we look like a well oiled machine, but this year when the system starts to fray in the last quarter that 'cohesion' turns into predictability which turns stale and robs us of any chance to up the ante and create some momentum. Most worrying thing for me this year is we've only turned it around once in the last and that was against a chronically choking Carlton team.

On personnel, having Nibbler badly down on form is hurting us. As is having Kozzy and Fritta going large stretches of the game without getting their hands on the footy. Our smalls are handy, but Kozzy is the only one with pace and skills to really worry defenders and he still finds himself drifting in and out of games (not his fault, he's still only 21). Spargo, Nibbler and Sparrow resting down there aren't a threat at ground level and can't turn defenders inside out and get out the back. Would like to see Kozzy thrown up around the ball more if he's had a quiet quarter just to get him involved.

This is a perfect post


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Topkent]

There is a saying in poker: scared money dont make money...I think this a great way to desribe our game style in 2022.

So concerned about keeping the opposition scores down that we cant kick one ourselves. Playing safe only gets you so far, sure, it might get you to the finals (you make the cash and a bit of profit in a poker tournament) but if youre too scared to take risks with the footy (bluff or call down an opponent light) youre never winning the grand final (shipping the entire tournament and a heap of cash)

I'd bet almost every single one of our losses outside the dogs we've kicked 65-75 and the opposition has kicked 90-100. I think teams know if they all out attack us especially from the defensive half we don't have the power to go toe to toe against the best.

 

[Daemon]

If us numpties can see these problems, and let's be honest most of us have been banging on about it all year, why aren't the coaches doing anything about it? It just screams sheer arrogance and pigheadedness.

 

[Pierce48]

If us numpties can see these problems, and let's be honest most of us have been banging on about it all year, why aren't the coaches doing anything about it? It just screams sheer arrogance and pigheadedness.

Obviously they're saving the solution for next weekend so everyone underestimates us and we come into form just in time for the granny