Don't be misled: AOD9604 is definitely a performance-enhancing drug

[Ando727]

Lol... you start a fact thread, make an idiot of your self then commit the ultimate surrender by resorting to the oldest back track the internet has... grammar correction... the reason the EFC has any argument is because of people like you who have no clue what they are cutting and pasting...

This is cutting edge science and i freely admit is a PE...you could argue whey, bcaa or even intermittent fasting does the same thing, just not as refined hence the argument and confusion is that the substance is grey because the peptide stimulates natural GH which not even wada or asada know how to pidgeon hole it....its mostly unclassified...this is why we will be just fine... are you starting to see the glaring holes in your facts yet?

Some questions for you:

- Let's assume you are right and that this drug is essentially a dud, is that all that matters to you?
- Aren't you in the least bit troubled by the program that went on at your club?
- Doesn't it concern you that this drug was administered to your players without WADA clearance because it was believed to offer something in the way of performance?
- Do you think it's ok to ignore thorough compliance with WADA as long as it turns out you were taking dud drugs? Are there no greater principles at play here?
- Surely the great leveller in sport is that everybody plays by the same rules? (yes, I was very unhappy with Melbourne's involvement with tanking)
- Do you agree with the majority of Bombers supporters on BF who seem almost gleeful at the idea that they will get off scott free? (the ones who say "suck on this - nothing will happen" etc.)

And for the record, I'm aware of the allegations against Jack Trengove, and if he's found to be in breach, he's should cop his punishment for the integrity of the sport. I take no pleasure in what's happened at Essendon - I just think the AFL needs to be squeaky clean and take a stand on this one.

 

[mxett]

Results from research into AOD, released this year

"in-vitro, pre-clinical and human clinical testing of AOD9604 provide clear scientific and medical evidence that AOD9604 does not increase Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1) levels. Furthermore, there is no evidence that AOD9604 dosing increases the number of muscle or cartilage cells."


This was confirmed by another release a few months ago which stated AOD failed at providing any result other than mild euphoria.

So no, AOD9604 is NOT performance enhancing

 

[Snake_Baker]

It's really tough to tell. It has properties that suggest it might be, but the evidence simply doesn't exist to make any definitive claims. AOD9604 was designed as a modified fragment of growth hormone. The original intention was to create a drug that has the effect on adipose (fat) cells of growth hormone, without the other effects. This sort of drug development is littered with failures, because replicating a sequence of amino acids is not the same as replicating a protein and its effects. It's not just the chemical composition of a protein that determines how it interacts with other molecules (especially endocrine receptors, like those that growth hormone acts on), but also how that protein folds. There's only really one way to tell what your compound actually does, and that's to try it out.

The evidence so far suggests that there may be some effect on cartilage and bone densities, and it is correlated with weight loss. I understand that there is no evidence to suggest that it stimulates the release of IGF-1, which is the mechanism via which growth hormone gets most of its purported performance enhancing effects (i.e. muscle bulk). Whilst this is a decent list of things to test if one is considering AOD9604 as simply a variant of growth hormone, it is by no means exhaustive of all the mechanisms via which a drug can enhance athletic performance. The evidence thus far suggests that AOD9604 could be performance enhancing, but there is nothing I would hang my hat on. That is why I maintain that Dank is more sorcerer than scientist.


Ultimately, it needs to be trialled in athletes. But that would never happen. As a substance with no therapeutic use, there is no need to ever test it to determine its effect on athletic performance. You don't need the same standard of evidence for drugs like EPO (synthetic replicas of hormones), where the primary biological effect studied in clinical trials of non-athletes is clearly and blatantly performance enhancing. With something like AOD9604, the waters are much murkier with respect to athletic performance.

I would be interested to know if there is any data about the peptides properties in combination with other compounds. Could it have symbiotic performance enhancing properties?

 

[jenny61_99]

Results from research into AOD, released this year

"in-vitro, pre-clinical and human clinical testing of AOD9604 provide clear scientific and medical evidence that AOD9604 does not increase Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1) levels. Furthermore, there is no evidence that AOD9604 dosing increases the number of muscle or cartilage cells."

This was confirmed by another release a few months ago which stated AOD failed at providing any result other than mild euphoria.

So no, AOD9604 is NOT performance enhancing

Ah yes, that conveniently written paper - released in May this year, YEARS after the human trials had finished and painstaking in its attempts to point out that it did not increase IGF-1 levels. This is despite the fact that every sight selling the compound advertises it as so.

Essendon didn't take this compound for fun. They took it and the other cocktail of compounds because they believed it would enhance their performance.

 

[jenny61_99]

I would be interested to know if there is any data about the peptides properties in combination with other compounds. Could it have symbiotic performance enhancing properties?

No doubt that is what Dank was going for. You don't combine compounds for off-label use without the intention of increased performance.

 

[SunshineBoy]

yipes, bold capitals.
you win.

hmmmm nice alias. but a banned drug is a banned drug, no matter which club colours you want to dress it up in

 

[mxett]

Ah yes, that conveniently written paper - released in May this year, YEARS after the human trials had finished and painstaking in its attempts to point out that it did not increase IGF-1 levels. This is despite the fact that every sight selling the compound advertises it as so.

Essendon didn't take this compound for fun. They took it and the other cocktail of compounds because they believed it would enhance their performance.

Are you saying Calzada falsified their research? Are you claiming Endochrinologist Dr Willet is a crook?

Wow Jenny

 

[Daytripper]

Anything can be performance enhancing if you spin it right.

Eating a Big Mac every day enhances weight gain.
Drinking milk every day enhances calcium growth.
Having a coffee stimulates and keep you alert.

But thanks anyway Chewy for that google analysis of AOD9604. Very enlightening.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Ah yes, that conveniently written paper - released in May this year, YEARS after the human trials had finished and painstaking in its attempts to point out that it did not increase IGF-1 levels. This is despite the fact that every sight selling the compound advertises it as so.

Essendon didn't take this compound for fun. They took it and the other cocktail of compounds because they believed it would enhance their performance.

If it was given in cream form, then all the outlets selling it in cream form do testify that it increases IGF-1 levels. They claim it is the best way to use the drug to get that result.

Jack Trengove was linked to the AOD 9604 in cream form in those text messages between Bates and Dank.

Do you have any info confirming it was injections at Essendon? Jobe didn't directly say he was injected with AOD, just that he got a lot of injections.

 

[mxett]

If it was given in cream form, then all the outlets selling it in cream form do testify that it increases IGF-1 levels. They claim it is the best way to use the drug to get that result.

Jack Trengove was linked to the AOD 9604 in cream form in those text messages between Bates and Dank.

Do you have any info confirming it was injections at Essendon? Jobe didn't directly say he was injected with AOD, just that he got a lot of injections.

Trengrove was given the cream to heal his navicular stress fracture

 

[jenny61_99]

If it was given in cream form, then all the outlets selling it in cream form do testify that it increases IGF-1 levels. They claim it is the best way to use the drug to get that result.

Jack Trengove was linked to the AOD 9604 in cream form in those text messages between Bates and Dank.

Do you have any info confirming it was injections at Essendon? Jobe didn't directly say he was injected with AOD, just that he got a lot of injections.

Nope.

 

[Taylor]

If it makes you slimmer then you can perform better. Jobe is 190cm tall running 15km a game. There is a reason marathon runners are so slight.

I encourage anyone to go for a run with a 1kg or 2kg weights vest and try and perform at their previous max level.

You may be able to argue that it isn't performance enhancing, but it enhances your performance through it's effects if it reduces your body fat.

 

[Tigerland]

It's becoming clearer by the minute that there is 2 universes at play here.

One where Essendon's PR spin merchants, their fans and the Club live and another universe called reality.

The AFL appear to lie somewhere in between.

I wonder if the large sums of money paid by Essendon to a PR firm was really worth it. What was their advice I wonder? - Act innocent, believe what you were doing was right. Play the victim. You will either
get off, get a lighter penalty and even receive sympathy. The members will back you. Use the confusing paper trail about the drug's legality to your advantage, that is the get out clause.

I'm also lead to believe there was/is 2 scientific/medical types brought into the club after the scandal broke. This was stated by Essendon themselves. What was there role I wonder? Loop hole searching? What exactly was their purpose?

 

[Anoncomment]

Anything can be performance enhancing if you spin it right.

Eating a Big Mac every day enhances weight gain.
Drinking milk every day enhances calcium growth.
Having a coffee stimulates and keep you alert.

But thanks anyway Chewy for that google analysis of AOD9604. Very enlightening.

"Calcium growth"? I think you mean "bone growth", unless you are referring to arterial plaque formation, which is about as performance enhancing as syphilis. And try telling somebody with 15% renal function that if they just drank more milk, they'd have better bones. Again, the cavalry arrive with this reactionary garbage.

AOD9604 is not a well tested drug. It has no therapeutic use. The S0 clause is really for these rubbish drugs that could be performance-enhancing, but nobody is remotely interested in doing the research to find out, because it's not used by anyone, anyway. Claims that it definitely is or definitely isn't performance enhancing are both wrong. As for the IGF-1 claims from the body building fraternity, these are very easy to ignore. Anecdotes, without a control, without control for other variables (e.g. consumption of other drugs), without any data, performed by amateurs. That's not evidence.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Nope.

Well, it says here:

http://calzada.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/p6.pdf

that the tests that showed no improvement as cited was because the stuff was given orally and the AOD molecule is just too big for the gut to be absorbed. Better results were found in creams.

I'm assuming the tests that are cited that show no improvement are the oral ones.

 

[jenny61_99]

Well, it says here:

http://calzada.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/p6.pdf

that the tests that showed no improvement as cited was because the stuff was given orally and the AOD molecule is just too big for the gut to be absorbed. Better results were found in creams.

I'm assuming the tests that are cited that show no improvement are the oral ones.

One of the biggest challenges in developing drugs is the oral bioavailability of them. People don't want to be injecting themselves. But the acids in the gut breakdown the effectiveness thereby rendering the drug useless. Creams can be ok but are site specific. Injections directly into the blood stream are often the most effective.

 

[IanW]

Definitely performance enhancing ? Dunno. Its an experimental drug.

Definitely banned for use by athletes covered by WADA ? You'd have to not read the rules, not know what it is, or be enthusiastically lying to yourself to think otherwise.

 

[Cashmoney13]

Yes the drug has been proved to be banned way back in 2011, Yes essendon players have taken it admittedly, doesnt matter that it is a PED it is illegal!

If it was this black and white jobe and other players would not be playing this week, nor for the past few months..

We must be missing piece of information, wether it is the letter of conformation from ASADA that it is ok for use or another loophole in AOD904 classification that the public do not no about.

if so thats between WADA and ASADA to fight it out. regardless they are letting it run the course before jumping to conclusions, If all the information was there dont you think this issue would already be done??

Yes i am defending my club, however if they are that guilty as much as i would hate to see it the league needs to stamp it out and make an example of the EFC..

 

[Anoncomment]

Well, it says here:

http://calzada.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/p6.pdf

that the tests that showed no improvement as cited was because the stuff was given orally and the AOD molecule is just too big for the gut to be absorbed. Better results were found in creams.

I'm assuming the tests that are cited that show no improvement are the oral ones.

The confusion here is that the cream is still intended for systemic absorption, rather than local action. The intention is for AOD9604 to diffuse into blood and be transported to its site of action that way. As a protein of reasonable size, it would be very difficult to directly penetrate the periosteum that surrounds bone, and much harder still to reach an intra-articular site (within a joint). It would need to be transported via blood. Thus the cream, whilst intended for local treatment by some well-meaning but naive individuals, is actually a systemic route of administration.

 

[IanW]

If it was this black and white jobe and other players would not be playing this week, nor for the past few months..

Its not just this drug, and its not just this club.

You've got three afl clubs and two rugby league clubs definitely involved - and one of them has a dead body in it, in a matter that has been referred to the NSW police.

You've also got Essendon lawyering up.

This will be over when it's over.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Definitely performance enhancing ? Dunno. Its an experimental drug.

Definitely banned for use by athletes covered by WADA ? You'd have to not read the rules, not know what it is, or be enthusiastically lying to yourself to think otherwise.

If it improves recovery, it is performance enhancing.

Doing 400's back in the day, I'd start in June (training), start racing in late Oct, peak in competition by Jan, trail off in Feb. If I didn't get it right, I could peak in my first race and go downhill from there. Recovery and judging the amount of training that won't wear you down is critical to performance.

If I used a drug that improved my recovery, I would have run faster during competition = performance enhancing.

 

[Tigerland]

Yes the drug has been proved to be banned way back in 2011, Yes essendon players have taken it admittedly, doesnt matter that it is a PED it is illegal!

If it was this black and white jobe and other players would not be playing this week, nor for the past few months..

We must be missing piece of information, wether it is the letter of conformation from ASADA that it is ok for use or another loophole in AOD904 classification that the public do not no about.

if so thats between WADA and ASADA to fight it out. regardless they are letting it run the course before jumping to conclusions, If all the information was there dont you think this issue would already be done??

Yes i am defending my club, however if they are that guilty as much as i would hate to see it the league needs to stamp it out and make an example of the EFC..

Wow an Essendon supporter without his blinkers on.

Can't say I agree with your comment about Jobe and others not playing though.

Until the investigation is complete there will be no findings. Once there is findings there will be penalties.

The players are innocent until that time and have every right to play.

 

[BlueDay]

Again your first cut and paste is factually wrong... when you study a lil harder you will understand how wrong you are... nice fail tho...

Your wrong, your wrong.... because I say so. Did this line of debate get published with the Essendon membership pack in 2013?

It seems that everyone, apart from anyone even remotely related to the EFC, can't possibly be correct. But every thought that passes through the mind of anyone associated with the EFC, regardless of how fanciful, is fact.

 

[Blueyboy74]

Essendon are on record from the start saying they 'needed to get bigger'. Can't recall any references to 'we need to get slimmer' or 'the boys are a bit fat'.

It's patently obvious why AOD904 was administered. Whether it worked or not is irrelevant but Essendon fans arguing any alterior motive other than muscle growth need to wake up & smell the coffee.

 

[Baldur]

Is AOD-9604 a Performance Enhancing Drug?

Maybe not, in fact probably not. It may have some small effect. If approved from human therapeutic use it would most likely not be banned under any of the other provisions of the WADA cose.

But this is all totally irrelevent, it is banned. Full stop, end of story. S0 is there for very good reasons.