Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 3 * Coroner's Hearings Concluded

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 2

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on FF *Guilty Overturned on Appeal
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on FM *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[Lady O]

Could it be that everyone during this time has a solid alibi?

Doing what?

 

[31550]

Could it be that everyone during this time has a solid alibi?

Everyone would have at least some sort of alibi if they could say, relate the things they did during this period with some credibility.
There was dice rolling and tea making then 5 minutes of looking - doesn't really account for 56 minutes. So, no, everyone does not have a solid alibi.

 

[Lady O]

Everyone would have at least some sort of alibi if they could say, relate the things they did during this period with some credibility.
There was dice rolling and tea making then 5 minutes of looking - doesn't really account for 56 minutes. So, no, everyone does not have a solid alibi.

Yes, so much happened between 7am and 9.37, but nothing between then and 10.33am. Does seem odd when you think about it.

 

[Underarrest_]

FF was in town and FM has an alibi in FGM and FD.

 

[31550]

FF was in town and FM has an alibi in FGM and FD.

A sound alibi would mean all 3 of them FM, FGM, and FD gave complete and consistent accounts of what happened during that time. None of them account for the 56 minutes satisfactorily.

 

[Underarrest_]

A sound alibi would mean all 3 of them FM, FGM, and FD gave complete and consistent accounts of what happened during that time. None of them account for the 56 minutes satisfactorily.

Exactly, they are each others alibi
and FF had an alibi but the story of earlier on is inconsistent.

 

[31550]

Exactly, they are each others alibi
and FF had an alibi but the story of earlier on is inconsistent.

The story from 9.37 to 10.33 is inconsistent for FM FGM and FD. That's all. That's the only time that matters. That's when "it all happened" IMO. I'm not buying fake photos.
And I am not buying "5 minutes".

 

[Underarrest_]

The story from 9.37 to 10.33 is inconsistent for FM FGM and FD. That's all. That's the only time that matters. That's when "it all happened" IMO. I'm not buying fake photos.
And I am not buying "5 minutes".

From 9.37 photos were allegedly taken, pictures were being still drawn by FD, William was playing the roar game, FM took them inside to sign their pictures, dice rolling happened, cups of tea drunk and William put his shoes on and was around the corner and disappeared. (Maybe not in this order.)

 

[31550]

From 9.37 photos were allegedly taken, pictures were being still drawn by FD, William was playing the roar game, FM took them inside to sign their pictures, dice rolling happened, cups of tea drunk and William put his shoes on and was around the corner and disappeared. (Maybe not in this order.)

That's nowhere near 56 minutes IMO.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

explaining detail prior to 9.37 is irrelevant if your 9.37 POL is faked properly. But you still need to account for the time between 9.37 and 10.33.

From very first post Ive said that human nature wouldn't allow someone to deal emotionally with a death after 9.37 and simply hide a body start and conclude a search to make a 000 call at 10.56..i couldn't accept that as possible. Still don't. That very issue has kept FPs safe for 10 years..

 

[31550]

From very first post Ive said that human nature wouldn't allow someone to deal emotionally with a death after 9.37 and simply hide a body start and conclude a search to make a 000 call at 9.56..i couldn't accept that as possible. Still don't. That very issue has kept FPs safe for 10 years..

This assumes William died soon after 9.37 at FGM house. We don't know that for a fact.

We do know William was removed from FGM house by vehicle some time between 9.37 and 10.33.

All I am saying is that if FM didn't remove him herself, then she probably knows who did.

 

[Underarrest_]

From very first post Ive said that human nature wouldn't allow someone to deal emotionally with a death after 9.37 and simply hide a body start and conclude a search to make a 000 call at 9.56..i couldn't accept that as possible. Still don't. That very issue has kept FPs safe for 10 years..

and pretty incredible to dispose of a child, alert neighbours and phone 000 between 10.40, 10,45 and 10.56 if you go by the police theory according to the inquest, 11 to 16 minutes.

 

[shorsky]

True, I don't know which, or even if any of the Police actually found "warm tea", however it has been an accepted "fact" on this forum for as long as I can remember.

"In his opening address, Mr Craddock, told the court William had disappeared while the foster mother and Nanna were drinking tea that was still warm or “not too cold to drink”.

He remarked there were different ways of making or pouring tea and asked the foster mother what was hers or her mother’s preferred way."https://www.news.com.au/national/co...t/news-story/d0e0d3664d113387adef9083d094040f

No talk I can find of Police finding the tea warm. Probably ditto for the car bonnet.

Apologies for late reply Lady O, am catching up after being out of coverage.

TBH I think this is perhaps one of a number of important pieces of information that appears to have been given no credence in the search for William.

I shook my head when I heard that utterance from Mr Craddock - was he indicating that everyone is stupid re tea pouring ? and imo who gives a F …k how they liked it poured!

So many more important questions needed to be delved into, even around the tea, but once again we witnessed shoddy application & delivery. It’s quite appalling - the enquiry is into the disappearance of a barely 3 year old child !

It makes me furious to see our taxpayer $ so mismanage that 10+ years go by, only to result in more wasted gobbly gook! I just see it as a farce of what was a well intentioned legal procedure.

 

[31550]

Apologies for late reply Lady O, am catching up after being out of coverage.

TBH I think this is perhaps one of a number of important pieces of information that appears to have been given no credence in the search for William.

I shook my head when I heard that utterance from Mr Craddock - was he indicating that everyone is stupid re tea pouring ? and imo who gives a F …k how they liked it poured!

So many more important questions needed to be delved into, even around the tea, but once again we witnessed shoddy application & delivery. It’s quite appalling - the enquiry is into the disappearance of a barely 3 year old child !

It makes me furious to see our taxpayer $ so mismanage that 10+ years go by, only to result in more wasted gobbly gook! I just see it as a farce of what was a well intentioned legal procedure.

When this is all over, perhaps Craddock or Harriet will join Overington and Chumley in writing a book? They all seem to enjoy a good narrative, and have a way of telling and retelling stories without actually progressing to a logical conclusion.

 

[Lady O]

A sound alibi would mean all 3 of them FM, FGM, and FD gave complete and consistent accounts of what happened during that time. None of them account for the 56 minutes satisfactorily.

FGM said they would have been on the deck around an hour, kids drawing, dice throwing, pictures taken, (also tea made, but she didn't mention that). We have been scratching our heads trying to work out how FM could have made a drive, but we never considered that the drive may have been taken any time after 9.37. So when did they complete their breakfast and go onto the deck?

 

[31550]

FGM said they would have been on the deck around an hour, kids drawing, dice throwing, pictures taken, (also tea made, but she didn't mention that). We have been scratching our heads trying to work out how FM could have made a drive, but we never considered that the drive may have been taken any time after 9.37. So when did they complete their breakfast and go onto the deck?

I for one have long believed that if the drive happened at all, that it took place well before FF returned home.
I don't believe there is sufficient room in the timeline for the drive to be made between FF return and the 000 call.
I also don't believe that the drive could have been made between FF return and the 000 call without anyone witnessing it.

I don't think I even heard about the drive until the Inquest, when the FM walkthrough was aired and released (or leaked) to the public. It has never 'made sense' to me since I heard about it. IMO it does not fit either a 'lost' or 'abducted' theory.

 

[Lady O]

I for one have long believed that if the drive happened at all, that it took place well before FF returned home.
I don't believe there is sufficient room in the timeline for the drive to be made between FF return and the 000 call.
I also don't believe that the drive could have been made between FF return and the 000 call without anyone witnessing it.

I don't think I even heard about the drive until the Inquest, when the FM walkthrough was aired and released (or leaked) to the public. It has never 'made sense' to me since I heard about it. IMO it does not fit either a 'lost' or 'abducted' theory.

No, I agree.

What I'm asking about is breakfast at 8am (when FF had/was about to leave). You might think it would take maybe 30-45mins. So at 8.45 or there abouts, they went onto the deck for "about an hour". That still leaves 45mins unaccounted for, before the return of FF. I think that LE have been working on the assumption that the 9.37 photos were taken at the beginning of the "about and hour" on the deck. What about if they had already been there for "about an hour" before the photos?

 

[31550]

No, I agree.

What I'm asking about is breakfast at 8am (when FF had/was about to leave). You might think it would take maybe 30-45mins. So at 8.45 or there abouts, they went onto the deck for "about an hour". That still leaves 45mins unaccounted for, before the return of FF. I think that LE have been working on the assumption that the 9.37 photos were taken at the beginning of the "about and hour" on the deck. What about if they had already been there for "about an hour" before the photos?

According to FGM walkthrough they were out on the patio 'about an hour' total including all the activities.

But FGM's times can't be totally accurate in all cases. She says she's up at 7.30, breakfast at 8am, says she doesn't see FF at all because he was gone before she has breakfast. Doesn't know about any phone calls, so we can't be sure where she is at 9am, but she's not at the breakfast table or doing the dishes or she'd have heard the phone call from Owen's phone, and would have heard FM phoning Spedding and leaving a message. She mentions no tea making or drinking. She mentions no bike riding which is in other narratives.

I think it's important to consider the attention span of a 3YO boy which is in my experience no more than a few minutes. And in William's case probably shorter, given suggestions of ADD, and numerous mentions of how he got 'fed up' with various activities. It's unlikely that any single activity or game would last more than a few minutes IMO. And he's not going to sit at a breakfast table much longer than it takes him to eat.

According to FGM, the FM took the kids out to play while she did the dishes, then she went straight out to the verandah where FM was already set up with the kids drawing.

My timeline based on this being a faithful account on behalf of the FGM is that she actually got up much later (8.30?) and probably joined the breakfast table immediately after FF finished his coffee and toast - maybe around 8.40am to 8.50am, just as FF is leaving. The kids were scoffing their breakfast while FM cooked breakfast for FGM. Maybe this is when FGM tells FM about the washing machine. FGM starts eating breakfast, but the kids have finished and are getting restless so FM takes them out the front to ride the bikes, which FF has now unloaded from the car, and left a space in the driveway to ride. FM grabs the cordless phone and takes it with her outside while the kids are riding bikes. She calls Spedding. The call comes in from Owen's phone around this time and FM doesn't answer because she is busy with the kids. Meanwhile FGM takes a bit of time to eat her breakfast then gets up and does the dishes. By the time she's done, the bike riding is over and FM is setting the kids up on the verandah. So it's maybe around 9.10-9.15. They do some drawing and leaf collecting. Then she takes the photos etc.

This explains why FGM knows nothing about the bike riding or the phone calls, and also why she didn't actually see FF, but heard him in the kitchen. We know FM was prone to take the cordless phone outside to use it - she did exactly the same when she dialled 000.

If this version is true, then breakfast began before FF left, it finished for FGM around 9.10-9.15. Then there are activities accounting for the timeline up to 9.37.

There is still a gap between 9.37 and 10.33 where only the dice rolling, the daddy Tiger, and the 'gone quiet' period occurs in parallel with tea making. This gets us to about 10am.

How does FGM encounter AMS on the street before FF returns home?
How does FF get home before FGM returns to the back verandah?

And the coroner decided not to call FGM as a witness while the opportunity existed?

 

[Angry Red Bull]

According to FGM walkthrough they were out on the patio 'about an hour' total including all the activities.

But FGM's times can't be totally accurate in all cases. She says she's up at 7.30, breakfast at 8am, says she doesn't see FF at all because he was gone before she has breakfast. Doesn't know about any phone calls, so we can't be sure where she is at 9am, but she's not at the breakfast table or doing the dishes or she'd have heard the phone call from Owen's phone, and would have heard FM phoning Spedding and leaving a message. She mentions no tea making or drinking. She mentions no bike riding which is in other narratives.

I think it's important to consider the attention span of a 3YO boy which is in my experience no more than a few minutes. And in William's case probably shorter, given suggestions of ADD, and numerous mentions of how he got 'fed up' with various activities. It's unlikely that any single activity or game would last more than a few minutes IMO. And he's not going to sit at a breakfast table much longer than it takes him to eat.

According to FGM, the FM took the kids out to play while she did the dishes, then she went straight out to the verandah where FM was already set up with the kids drawing.

My timeline based on this being a faithful account on behalf of the FGM is that she actually got up much later (8.30?) and probably joined the breakfast table immediately after FF finished his coffee and toast - maybe around 8.40am to 8.50am, just as FF is leaving. The kids were scoffing their breakfast while FM cooked breakfast for FGM. Maybe this is when FGM tells FM about the washing machine. FGM starts eating breakfast, but the kids have finished and are getting restless so FM takes them out the front to ride the bikes, which FF has now unloaded from the car, and left a space in the driveway to ride. FM grabs the cordless phone and takes it with her outside while the kids are riding bikes. She calls Spedding. The call comes in from Owen's phone around this time and FM doesn't answer because she is busy with the kids. Meanwhile FGM takes a bit of time to eat her breakfast then gets up and does the dishes. By the time she's done, the bike riding is over and FM is setting the kids up on the verandah. So it's maybe around 9.10-9.15. They do some drawing and leaf collecting. Then she takes the photos etc.

This explains why FGM knows nothing about the bike riding or the phone calls, and also why she didn't actually see FF, but heard him in the kitchen. We know FM was prone to take the cordless phone outside to use it - she did exactly the same when she dialled 000.

If this version is true, then breakfast began before FF left, it finished for FGM around 9.10-9.15. Then there are activities accounting for the timeline up to 9.37.

There is still a gap between 9.37 and 10.33 where only the dice rolling, the daddy Tiger, and the 'gone quiet' period occurs in parallel with tea making. This gets us to about 10am.

How does FGM encounter AMS on the street before FF returns home?
How does FF get home before FGM returns to the back verandah?

And the coroner decided not to call FGM as a witness while the opportunity existed?

Opinions and conjecture

Your reconstruction has significant flaws in it in my view. She says they all sat up to breakfast but without FF..Even recites the menu they all had and it ' took some time' an hour in response to detective question. You instead want to suggest she was alone for breakfast the others having already eaten. You are trying to force change to meet a predetermined theory you have.

You suggest that FM took the phone outside to make the Spedding call. You say that to then explain why the GO call wasn't answered innocently. You are trying to connect the two when In reality all we know is she FGM told the detective 7 times No to whether any calls were received.. FGM clearly suspected the detective already knew the answer that's why she said no 7 times waiting for her to intervene and mention the call which she never does..Importantly I suspect FGM didn't hear the call..perhaps none of them did because they were too busy emotionally with aftermath of a death.. But if she took the handset outside for 9.03 call innocently surely she could have hit answer when it rang in her posession at 9.10 from GO in the event there was no aftermath of death. She didn't. The Spedding call was important..FM HAD to make that call to STOP in my opinion Spedding coming that morning as he was scheduled to do. She made that straight after 9 to stop that visit.. I believe W was already dead and gone with FF.....and if Spedding arrived to that scenario it would be incriminating and impossible to explain. Having got over that, they weren't about to answer other calls because they were devastated so they built a scotoma to it from the emotional state. That's why it wasn't heard because it was totally unimportant in the scheme of things at that point.

The most likely scenario is FGM lied about things concerning FF to hide a crime. That's why she volunteered answers not even asked because his whereabouts was the highest priority as lie in her own mind so she went straight to that story to start the process to convince.. common indicia of deception.....imperative need to convince.

Wilson as last POL needs to be brought in..she heard children playing sometime before she left on errands which you have suggested was perhaps 8.30. If 7.39 was correct ( before substitution) and 9.37 incorrect then hearing children play could be on the verandah after FGM Gets up at 7 30 as she says and before they went inside for breakfast.

We agree the FGM accounts are important. The amazing thing is that when you find the truth everything suddenly falls into place without forcing

 

[31550]

Opinions and conjecture

Your reconstruction has significant flaws in it in my view. She says they all sat up to breakfast but without FF..Even recites the menu they all had and it ' took some time' an hour in response to detective question. You instead want to suggest she was alone for breakfast the others having already eaten. You are trying to force change to meet a predetermined theory you have.

You suggest that FM took the phone outside to make the Spedding call. You say that to then explain why the GO call wasn't answered innocently. You are trying to connect the two when In reality all we know is she FGM told the detective 7 times No to whether any calls were received.. FGM clearly suspected the detective already knew the answer that's why she said no 7 times waiting for her to intervene and mention the call which she never does..Importantly I suspect FGM didn't hear the call..perhaps none of them did because they were too busy emotionally with aftermath of a death.. But if she took the handset outside for 9.03 call innocently surely she could have hit answer when it rang in her posession at 9.10 from GO in the event there was no aftermath of death. She didn't. The Spedding call was important..FM HAD to make that call to STOP in my opinion Spedding coming that morning as he was scheduled to do. She made that straight after 9 to stop that visit.. I believe W was already dead and gone with FF.....and if Spedding arrived to that scenario it would be incriminating and impossible to explain. Having got over that, they weren't about to answer other calls because they were devastated so they built a scotoma to it from the emotional state. That's why it wasn't heard because it was totally unimportant in the scheme of things at that point.

The most likely scenario is FGM lied about things concerning FF to hide a crime. That's why she volunteered answers not even asked because his whereabouts was the highest priority as lie in her own mind so she went straight to that story to start the process to convince.. common indicia of deception.....imperative need to convince.

Wilson as last POL needs to be brought in..she heard children playing sometime before she left on errands which you have suggested was perhaps 8.30. If 7.39 was correct ( before substitution) and 9.37 incorrect then hearing children play could be on the verandah after FGM Gets up at 7 30 as she says and before they went inside for breakfast.

We agree the FGM accounts are important. The amazing thing is that when you find the truth everything suddenly falls into place without forcing

Firstly I never said she had breakfast alone. I merely speculated that she sat down to breakfast later than the others, so FF had just left, and the kids were already eating. FM then cooks FGM breakfast, and the kids finish, get restless, so FM takes them outside while FGM finishes breakfast and does dishes. It's speculation, but it's accepting of her version of events without invention. Similarly, one explanation as to why she was unaware of the phone calls is that FM used the cordless phone outside (as we know she did with the 000 call).

Wilson's time is important - I would suggest 8.30 is a more likely time for 'errands' than 7.30.

The phone calls from Owen's phone and to Spedding have innocent and simple explanations. They may or may not be true, but I am applying Occam's razor again.

That some sort of sudden death or severe accident occurred before FF left is pure invention on your part, I am afraid. Why would FF leave the house and drive to Laurieton and have his meeting etc., leaving FM to deal with it if he was aware? He is not the cool, calm, collected one - he is the emotional reactive one, and is without his anxiety meds. I don't find this plausible. And to suddenly hatch a conspiracy under these circumstances - one so complete and cunning it goes undetected for 10 years?

It seems to me FF was, and possibly still is unaware of exactly what happened after he left.

FGM may or may not be aware of exactly what happened between the time of the photo and FF return, but she knows something happened so she has a ~30 minute gap in her timeline which she is stretching the 'agreed' events to cover.

It was a BIG miss on the part of the coroner to not call FGM as a witness when the chance existed. IMO.

 

[Underarrest_]

I’m not sure about FM phoning Bill Spedding to make sure he didn’t just show up. Wouldn’t FM have answered any incoming calls (after making this call) to make sure someone didn’t just show up?

 

[Underarrest_]

Firstly I never said she had breakfast alone. I merely speculated that she sat down to breakfast later than the others, so FF had just left, and the kids were already eating. FM then cooks FGM breakfast, and the kids finish, get restless, so FM takes them outside while FGM finishes breakfast and does dishes. It's speculation, but it's accepting of her version of events without invention. Similarly, one explanation as to why she was unaware of the phone calls is that FM used the cordless phone outside (as we know she did with the 000 call).

Wilson's time is important - I would suggest 8.30 is a more likely time for 'errands' than 7.30.

The phone calls from Owen's phone and to Spedding have innocent and simple explanations. They may or may not be true, but I am applying Occam's razor again.

That some sort of sudden death or severe accident occurred before FF left is pure invention on your part, I am afraid. Why would FF leave the house and drive to Laurieton and have his meeting etc., leaving FM to deal with it if he was aware? He is not the cool, calm, collected one - he is the emotional reactive one, and is without his anxiety meds. I don't find this plausible. And to suddenly hatch a conspiracy under these circumstances - one so complete and cunning it goes undetected for 10 years?

It seems to me FF was, and possibly still is unaware of exactly what happened after he left.

FGM may or may not be aware of exactly what happened between the time of the photo and FF return, but she knows something happened so she has a ~30 minute gap in her timeline which she is stretching the 'agreed' events to cover.

It was a BIG miss on the part of the coroner to not call FGM as a witness when the chance existed. IMO.

“And to suddenly hatch a conspiracy under these circumstances - one so complete and cunning it goes undetected for 10 years?”

The timestamp of the photos was brought up by William’s Dad and legal team and thought worthy enough by the Coroner to have the photos released and examined.
The public hasn’t heard the results of this examination by the expert.

 

[31550]

I’m not sure about FM phoning Bill Spedding to make sure he didn’t just show up. Wouldn’t FM have answered any incoming calls (after making this call) to make sure someone didn’t just show up?

If she wanted Spedding not to show up she would have left a message to that effect. She actually left a message chasing him up (I believe). This would have been very risky, as he might have got the message and immediately headed to FGM house with the part if he had it.
So, I think at 9am when the phone call was made it was because FM actually wanted the washing machine fixed! Occams razor again.

 

[31550]

“And to suddenly hatch a conspiracy under these circumstances - one so complete and cunning it goes undetected for 10 years?”

The timestamp of the photos was brought up by William’s Dad and legal team and thought worthy enough by the Coroner to have the photos released and examined.
The public hasn’t heard the results of this examination by the expert.

The coroner ordered the report over 3 years ago. The inquest reconvened and the coroner had ample opportunity to enter evidence from the experts. The coroner did not do so, and vacated the inquest. The natural conclusion is that there was NO relevant evidence to enter.

If there was such evidence from the experts, it would need to be presented. The fosters both have legal representation at the inquest. Their lawyers would be entitled to challenge and question the experts findings, and call witnesses who might be able to explain or defend the timestamp discrepancies. This opportunity was never presented.

The suggestion that the photos have now been examined by experts and found to be faked, and that the coroner is just going to ignore those findings is ridiculous and suggests that there is not only incompetence but corruption in the system.

If the experts had come back with an adverse finding, wouldn't the lawyer for William's father be jumping up and down to get the evidence before the coroner, if not out in the public arena? What possible grounds for suppression of this information would exist?

 

[jason_recliner]

If ever I and Will's family need a laugh!!!