Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 3 * Coroner's Hearings Concluded

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 2

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[shorsky]

Just trying to look at the timeline of the morning from the evidence that we have. So not really suggesting anything.

We know the car was driving past the tennis club before 9:00 on the way to Lakewood, and then evidence of FF at Lakewood making calls and the pharmacy and then buying the paper. But is there evidence of the car driving back at around 10:30.

The search, as witnessed by neighbours, did not start until after FF arrived home. i don't think that, IMO, that FM did any outside search around the house on foot before this. No one saw her or reported her calling out before 10:30.

Didn’t FF say that FM, FGM & L were on the patio when he got home, FM came from there asking ‘have you got William’

 

[js47]

Didn’t FF say that FM, FGM & L were on the patio when he got home, FM came from there asking ‘have you got William’

You are right. So maybe she did not know he was missing till FF got home.
Then went running out searching and talking to the neighbours?
The police seem to think the drive was after she spoke to the neighbours.
As I said earlier Paul Savage arrived with the neighbours and the FM was not there according to him. (Daily Mail).
Unless I have pen and paper the different time lines are so confusing.
And the different sources for them.
If FF parked next to the car port when he came home he would have just walked around the corner not up the yard where Wm. ran away.
So why would she ask that?
It is also worrying that a little child could be on the drive way and not be seen by FF in the car.
If the FM is not being purposely deceptive then she needs serious help and I hope the people who love her do this for her. All she has to do is honestly tell what happened with the time line not let GJ do it for her.

 

[stormbird]

Stormbird, my husband said there was a tip dirt road well before Herons Creek that he used as a short cut onto the highway.
From Kendall he said he went past the school till he came to the track turned right past the tip and onto the highway.

Thanks, js47 - you're right, there is a shorter way! This might not be exactly the same track your husband meant - this looks to be bitumen or gravel and it doesn't connect to the highway; but it does connect to Nancy Bird Walton Drive (which used to be the highway before the bypass was built), and it does go past a tip:

Lakewood-Nancy Bird Walton Drive (north)-Herons Creek Road-Logans Crossing Road-Comboyne St

Google Maps says from Lakewood to Kendall General Store would take 12 minutes (and doesn't go past the tennis court camera).

 

[31550]

As I said earlier Paul Savage arrived with the neighbours and the FM was not there according to him. (Daily Mail).

Is there a link for this please? FM was not where? When?

 

[LRitz]

I agree that if either didn’t want William they could have given him back. It’s more about thoughts in regards to the sequence of events leading up to William’s disappearance.

Yes, they could have given him or both back. Sounds like they had asked for help with care and extra day care time for William but nothing was done.
But why risk hiding an accident or incident, that would have been done in a panic, with no preparation, in about an hour (time between last photo and alerting neighbours), without leaving any evidence. And risk being found out, which would probably resulted in loss of FD. This also sounds unlikely. Are the choices left all between unlikely events? i do not not know what is the most likely unlikely event.

And don't forget just happen to take a photo of William before this accident/ incident so FF's has an alibi.

 

[LRitz]

Re: "But is there evidence of the car driving back at around 10:30."

I don't think any reports have said FF or his 4WD were caught on the Kendall tennis court CCTV on his return.

He had the prescription filled at Lakewood pharmacy at 10:19, though, so I think it's unlikely there would have been time to get to Kendall General Store by 10:30 if he'd returned any way except the direct route Lakewood-Kew-Kendall General Store, which went past the camera (which in 2014 was in Graham St across the road from the Kendall Community Op Shop). Google Maps says an alternative route Lakewood-Herons Creek-Logans Crossing-Kendall would take 17 minutes.

Also, I think there was probably some level of CCTV coverage over the main Kew intersection (Kendall Rd / Ocean Drive and Nancy Bird Walton Drive), which he would have driven through both to and from Lakewood. There was the Royal Hotel on one corner, a service station on another, Kew Corner Store on a third, and a rural supplies shop (probably with some goods on display outside) on a fourth. No one's ever said whether they all had CCTV, but Overington's book said that Snr Cst Rowley asked the hotel to preserve CCTV footage (Missing William Tyrrell, rev. ed. 2021, p. 72).

If there are CCTV images of FF on his way back to FGM's, I suppose they wouldn't prove the time he got back to the house, only whether it was him driving and whether in the Discovery.

So it is easy to drive back without passing the Tennis Club.

It sounds like police looked for evidence of CCTV of FF driving back, but no evidence of this has been made public.
" ....main Kew intersection (Kendall Rd / Ocean Drive and Nancy Bird Walton Drive)" - Looks like there was hotel and service station, but again these CCTV would have been set up for security of their business and not to monitor road traffic, so not seeing the Land Rover may have been inconclusive.
FF has evidence of were he was, but what about the Land Rover. The neighbours were not alerted and search started only when both cars were back in the drive and carport at Benaroon.

 

[js47]

Is there a link for this please? FM was not where? When?

When Paul Savage arrived at FGM’s house with neighbours the Foster Mother was not there only the FF and FGM.

Daily Mail 13 0ctober 2024 article by Candice Sutton.
31550 I had not heard about this comment either.

 

[31550]

When Paul Savage arrived at FGM’s house with neighbours the Foster Mother was not there only the FF and FGM.

Daily Mail 13 0ctober 2024 article by Candice Sutton.
31550 I had not heard about this comment either.

Thanks I think I found it. It's a bit vague - doesn't give the time of day. Seems to be after police were called. FM may have been out doing more 'looking' - it seems they didn't lock down the house as a crime scene. It doesn't say if the car was there or not.

 

[js47]

Thanks I think I found it. It's a bit vague - doesn't give the time of day. Seems to be after police were called. FM may have been out doing more 'looking' - it seems they didn't lock down the house as a crime scene. It doesn't say if the car was there or not.

Not very good reporting after ten years it should be informative.
It feels like click and paste.

 

[31550]

Not very good reporting after ten years it should be informative.
It feels like click and paste.

Yeah it's just a rehash of old material. Quite sloppy as it refers to the FM when I'm pretty sure it means the FGM a couple of times.

 

[stormbird]

So it is easy to drive back without passing the Tennis Club.

It sounds like police looked for evidence of CCTV of FF driving back, but no evidence of this has been made public.
" ....main Kew intersection (Kendall Rd / Ocean Drive and Nancy Bird Walton Drive)" - Looks like there was hotel and service station, but again these CCTV would have been set up for security of their business and not to monitor road traffic, so not seeing the Land Rover may have been inconclusive.
FF has evidence of were he was, but what about the Land Rover. The neighbours were not alerted and search started only when both cars were back in the drive and carport at Benaroon.

Re: "FF has evidence of were he was, but what about the Land Rover."

From Searching for Spiderman, 2020, p. 176:

"[FF's] car's location was tracked through point-to-point cameras, through the onboard satnav system and triangulation of his phone signals. He can be seen on CCTV at the Lakewood precinct, precisely where he said he was - when he said he was."

The book doesn't explain which point-to-point cameras were checked. But I think all point-to-point cameras would be along the highway (which FF wouldn't have needed to use for a quick drive to or from Lakewood), so presumably Chumley is talking about their trip to Kendall from Sydney.

I think triangulation of FF's phone signals would be tied to his phone not the Discovery, unless using Siri from a vehicle (as FF did to send the text) would show the location of the vehicle? I don't know how it works.

Also, if he used the internet for the meeting and could be seen on-screen with the interior of the Discovery in view (plus maybe the surroundings outside), that would have helped locate the vehicle at Lakewood (though I guess not anywhere else).

 

[stormbird]

When Paul Savage arrived at FGM’s house with neighbours the Foster Mother was not there only the FF and FGM.

Daily Mail 13 0ctober 2024 article by Candice Sutton.
31550 I had not heard about this comment either.

Does the article say which "neighbours" were there? I thought only Anne Maree and Paul were alerted before FM called the police.

 

[Lebbo73]

The FM and FF were in sinc in support. I think the initial damage was done both as witness prior him leaving for work. The FGM was witness too but excluded by lying she wasn’t even up…. And FF not there either to stop them being accomplices. I don’t believe there was an accidental fall. That binds them to hide a body because there was a crime. It was FM who did the hiding some time around 9.50 after he had been placed on bed to recover but didn’t but was 12 min drive away not 3 min. No cadaver scent in car nor at house meaning the car was used once only shortly after death. No time to bury. There was no grave. There will continue to be cadaver scent from remnants and where body was placed and would likely be within 10 metres of road. That now seems to be the only way this progresses by finding a body. That and restoring FD memories as possible about incident and timing…..when he went in search of FF. She has been brainwashed by them imo.

This is fanciful stuff. Where’s the evidence? Maybe if you were a detective on this case, it would’ve been solved by now.

 

[js47]

Does the article say which "neighbours" were there? I thought only Anne Maree and Paul were alerted before FM called the police.

No I think poor reporting Daily Mail 13 October 2024

 

[js47]

If William died I think he was placed rather than buried.
Why? Little body curled up would be a small foot print all you would need to do is place him next to a log for instance and drag some branches. You would have to be careful not to scratch your hand.
Let’s hope anyway.

 

[Underarrest_]

Police (from what’s been reported from the inquest) are alleging that FM placed William in FGM’s car.
FM’s niece (in the last witness podcast) said that FGM’s car was pulled apart to the extent that new parts needed to put on the car.
Sounds like a very thorough search of the car.
Surely if FM put William in FGM’s car and drove to x destination, there would be some evidence, blood, DNA, material fragments, hair, soil/foliage from surrounding areas. The kind of evidence that can’t be washed away from parts of the car that aren’t really accessible unless you pull it apart, even years later.

 

[stormbird]

No I think poor reporting Daily Mail 13 October 2024

"Mr Savage remembers going to the foster grandmother's home after the alarm was raised on September 12, 2014, when neighbours helped in the desperate search. <snipped>

Mr Savage told Daily Mail Australia that when he and other residents arrived at the house, the foster grandmother 'kept on saying how William had been there on the verandah, then he was gone,' he recalled.

He said William's foster father was there at the house but the foster mother was not. None of the foster family can be identified for legal reasons.

Mr Savage, now 80 but still fit, said he quickly went to the bushy fringes beyond the top of street, which he knew from his daily walks, to search for William."

Daily Mail, 13 Oct 2024

Does anyone know who the "other residents" were? What did they do after Paul went searching in the "bushy fringes"?

 

[Kurve]

Surely if FM put William in FGM’s car and drove to x destination, there would be some evidence, blood, DNA, material fragments, hair, soil/foliage from surrounding areas. The kind of evidence that can’t be washed away from parts of the car that aren’t really accessible unless you pull it apart, even years later.

Perhaps that's why there was a question of whether there were any drop sheets (or similar) in the FGM garage. I suspect they found those fibres in her car.