Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[31550]

I don't know what sort to people the foster carers are. Are they capable of such actions?

The picture you paint consists largely of the fosters' own narrative, and not necessarily proven facts:
"Everyone was Happy!" Were they? Where is the evidence for this? There are no happy-snap photographs with William cuddling the FM or FGM and laughing and smiling.

We should probably ignore the narratives and focus only on the evidence.

Are they capable of such actions? We know now that they were capable of assault and intimidation of a child in their care.
So, there is an element of doubt about the 'everyone was happy' narrative. We also know that, given certain circumstances, maybe provocation, they were capable of putting their own interests above a child's safety and well-being, even if only for a few moments.

So IMO there is the possibility that an accident or incident may have tipped the FM over the edge. There is also the possibility that William's demise was the culmination of an ongoing pattern of inappropriate behaviour from the FM.

If we accept that might have happened, we may then ask, is it possible that the FM would then conceal this action and lie about the circumstances of William's disappearance? To do so would not be 'normal' or acceptable behaviour for most people. But is it still possible? Again, IMO the answer is yes if the FM was placed under enough stress and/or suffered some sort of (borderline) personality disorder at the time.

Then if we can accept all that as a possibility, we might question whether the FM had an opportunity to remove William's body in order to cover up whatever happened at the FGM house. Again, IMO, the time between 9:37 and 10:30, and the availability of the FGM car provides that opportunity.

So, IMO it's all a possibility, but there isn't enough evidence we know about to prove it one way or another.

 

[31550]

Just some more thoughts on "what is possible" vs "what is normal":

A few months before William disappeared in 2014, another 3YO boy, Mikaeel Kular, was reported missing by his mother Rosdeep Adekoya in Edinburgh, Scotland. Rosdeep's 999 call sparked a major search involving police, fire brigades, coastguards, and mountain service rescue squads, as well as many members of the public. Rosdeep told police that Mikaeel got out of bed and climbed on a stool to unlock the front door of the house.

Police became suspicious after tracking Rosdeep's movements via cell phone records, and examining her internet search history which showed searches including "I find it hard to love my son", "I love all of my children except one", "Why am I so aggressive with my son" and "Get rid of bruises". (Mikaeel had a twin sister.)

Rosdeep broke down and led police to where she had hidden her son, inside a suitcase, near her sister's house. She claimed she did not intentionally kill him, but woke one morning to find him dead. Autopsy revealed Mikaeel had been subject to systematic beating, and that his death was not immediate, but he would have taken several days to die from the injuries inflicted by Rosdeep.

The final cause of death was found to be "blunt force abdominal trauma". Mikaeel had more than 40 separate injuries to his body, including bruises to his back, chin and cheek, trauma to the brain, haemorrhage in the spinal cord and injuries to his arms.

 

[Wallace52]

Put yourself in the picture.Everything happening before the photo is a normal happy morning visiting Nanna. No one can see into the future or know what is about to happen. Breakfast and orange juice. Drawing and planning to visit the cemetery for a family outing. FM and FGM talking about FGM soon moving from the house and the beautiful remote bush setting.

Then something terrible happens. William is killed in an accident e.g fall from balcony. This is not something FM could have anticipated or would have a plan to act in such a situation. So lets not use the word "panic". But it is hard to understand how she would have quickly thought how she was going to: conceal the accident, hide the body, what she was going to say to the police, make up the abduction story, get FGM to agree, make sure she and FGM had the same story (conspiracy) to tell police, make sure LT was unaware. As well as remove any evidence that could be found in a search (and do it successfully). As well as plan to do this before FF returns so he has an alibi. And that is just the planning. Must have taken some time. How long did it take to get FGM to agree.

I don't know what sort to people the foster carers are. Are they capable of such actions?

The easiest part of that proposed cover-up scenario (that is if there was a cover up*), in my humble opinion involves the FM not telling the FF what has occurred.

I think FGM knew what happened, or knew most of what happened, and that’s why her and the FM were on bad terms for the remainder of that week in Sept, 2014.

At the conclusion of the foster family’s trip to Kendall: Where and to whom did the FM hand her mother’s keys to before her, L and FF headed back to Sydney, sans William?

They didn’t even say goodbye to the FGM in person or bother driving to her temporary residence to hand her the keys to her house. They handed the keys of 48 Benaroon Drive to a police officer to pass onto the foster grandmother. Then they left and drove away.

That about says it all.

* there may have been no accident and/or cover up. William may have wandered off or he may have been abducted.

 

[31550]

I think FGM knew what happened, or knew most of what happened, and that’s why her and the FM were on bad terms for the remainder of that week in Sept, 2014.

Note that according to Wendy Hudson's notes, the FM contacted police on at least one occasion, concerned that her mother (FGM) was talking to people in Kendall about the case.
One might ask why FM didn't simply call FGM herself and ask her not to discuss the case? But no, she asked the police to intervene.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

What doesn't stack up exactly?

• An accidental fall from the balcony? Maybe it wasn't accidental. Or maybe some other accident or deliberate act caused his death.
• An elaborate plan needed to be concocted? Maybe someone just panicked immediately and shoved him in the car and drove off, thinking up a plan as they went?
• Maybe William didn't die at FGM property, but was taken to another location alive, but something happened at the other location?
• Someone would have found him if he was left nearby? Maybe someone did, and moved him elsewhere? Or he wasn't left nearby.

I agree if it doesn't make sense, it probably isn't true. But there are still scenarios which fit the evidence which do make sense, sort of.

She self limited herself on time when no need to. That seriously doesn't make sense. Fall from balcony very unlikely because unlikely to die (100-1) and if he did it would be hours later not immediate. Unconscious perhaps? Then why rush? Wait to see if he survived and involve FF to help. No I can't have accidental death in only 40 minutes from balcony..then limit yourself futher to a 7 minute drive to hide. Totally incompatible with human nature for me. Was she in a panic? Maybe. Still no

Police have moved all in on this scenario as last ditch thow at stumps..they haven't raised charges which means there isn't overwhelming evidence to support them.They didn't incriminate themselves with listening devices but did incriminate themselves in excessive punishment (loose description) of a child with those devices meaning seemingly they were unaware of the devices. That then means they were likely unaware also of devices when GJ set them up to vent what they knew with his devices. His instincts told him they would purge and they didn't which he concluded was because they had no involvement. A dispute with his 2IC led to him being thrown under the bus and the investigation dropping interest in PS and FA, and deciding as last resort to attack the Fosters to make them crack. Still no evidence or charges.

Just listened again to full NSW police interview video (21 min duration) April 17th 2015

When asked the question "When was the last time you saw him?" FF steps in and says about 10.15. FM quietly then says "no" in background but doesn't elaborate nor is asked again. Happens about 1' 50" mark of video

Why does she disagree with the timing? Was it because she left him unattended for longer than she has let on? WHY would FF be the one to respond to this question when he wasn't even there!!!.....didn't return until 10.30.

This time was the approx time neighbours heard a vehicle and mistook it for the postman's vehicle..why was it thought to be the postman's vehicle? Was it because he stopped and started again like a postman does. Does that description match a car pulling up ....grabbing WT and then leaving again? Is it just that the postman usually comes at that time?

What is also Interesting is that, from a witness statement analysis viewpoint, their responses seem genuine and non incriminating. In particular, they are concerned with what might be happening to WT and in present tense. Guilty people usually refer to their victims in past tense and are more concerned with what's happening to them than a missing WT. FM is quite self absorbed true but she does make all the right/ expected responses for welfare of WT present tense to pair with her self absorbed responses

 

[Wallace52]

She self limited herself on time when no need to. That seriously doesn't make sense. Fall from balcony very unlikely because unlikely to die (100-1) and if he did it would be hours later not immediate. Unconscious perhaps? Then why rush? Wait to see if he survived and involve FF to help. No I can't have accidental death in only 40 minutes from balcony..then limit yourself futher to a 7 minute drive to hide. Totally incompatible with human nature for me. Was she in a panic? Maybe. Still no

Police have moved all in on this scenario as last ditch thow at stumps..they haven't raised charges which means there isn't overwhelming evidence to support them.They didn't incriminate themselves with listening devices but did incriminate themselves in excessive punishment (loose description) of a child with those devices meaning seemingly they were unaware of the devices. That then means they were likely unaware also of devices when GJ set them up to vent what they knew with his devices. His instincts told him they would purge and they didn't which he concluded was because they had no involvement.

Either they had no involvement or the FM didn’t tell the FF (who did have a good alibi) what had occurred.

A dispute with his 2IC led to him being thrown under the bus and the investigation dropping interest in PS and FA, and deciding as last resort to attack the Fosters to make them crack. Still no evidence or charges.

Just listened again to full NSW police interview video (21 min duration) April 17th 2015

When asked the question "When was the last time you saw him?" FF steps in and says about 10.15. FM quietly then says "no" in background but doesn't elaborate nor is asked again. Happens about 1' 50" mark of video

Why does she disagree with the timing? Was it because she left him unattended for longer than she has let on? WHY would FF be the one to respond to this question when he wasn't even there!!!.....didn't return until 10.30.

I mean, he spoke for them as a couple sometimes. He wasn’t there at 10.15am so how would he know? Unless he was there at 10.15am?

This time was the approx time neighbours heard a vehicle and mistook it for the postman's vehicle..why was it thought to be the postman's vehicle? Was it because he stopped and started again like a postman does. Does that description match a car pulling up ....grabbing WT and then leaving again? Is it just that the postman usually comes at that time?

What is also Interesting is that, from a witness statement analysis viewpoint, their responses seem genuine and non incriminating.

I don’t think they’re genuine at all. If they were genuine they would have showed their faces by now. Especially considering they are fostering zero children.

In particular, they are concerned with what might be happening to WT and in present tense. Guilty people usually refer to their victims in past tense and are more concerned with what's happening to them than a missing WT. FM is quite self absorbed true but she does make all the right/ expected responses for welfare of WT present tense to pair with her self absorbed responses

By this point, they had been coached pretty well by Insight and by their lawyers, I would imagine.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

The easiest part of that proposed cover-up scenario (that is if there was a cover up*), in my humble opinion involves the FM not telling the FF what has occurred.

I think FGM knew what happened, or knew most of what happened, and that’s why her and the FM were on bad terms for the remainder of that week in Sept, 2014.

At the conclusion of the foster family’s trip to Kendall: Where and to whom did the FM hand her mother’s keys to before her, L and FF headed back to Sydney, sans William?

They didn’t even say goodbye to the FGM in person or bother driving to her temporary residence to hand her the keys to her house. They handed the keys of 48 Benaroon Drive to a police officer to pass onto the foster grandmother. Then they left and drove away.

That about says it all.

* there may have been no accident and/or cover up. William may have wandered off or he may have been abducted.

With respect that can possibly be incriminating..Just as likely is that arguments arose on the back of major family stress/ trauma and that drove a further wedge in an existing fragile relationship. Don't know which it is but drawing attention to the dispute by involving police in one sense shows a level of innocence conscience. A FM who had allegedly killed a child in care would be hell bent NOT to attract attention to the family especially with LE

I can't draw anything conclusive from that. It is interesting though for the fact there was an argument..

Did FM blame FGM because she had went inside and expected FGM to watch? Conversely did FGM blame FM because she was too loose with parental control and caused the death/ abduction? Both possible in addition to your possible incriminating behaviour

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Wallace52 I agree he spoke for her often. The police interview was poor because he created no boundaries and allowed him to speak for her when supposedly not there.

Either they had no involvement or the FM didn’t tell the FF (who did have a good alibi) what had occurred.

I mean, he spoke for them as a couple sometimes. He wasn’t there at 10.15am so how would he know? Unless he was there at 10.15am?



I don’t think they’re genuine at all. If they were genuine they would have showed their faces by now. Especially considering they are fostering zero children.

By this point, they had been coached pretty well by Insight and by their lawyers, I would imagine.

Do FPs have a right to relinquish that secrecy or is it the police that mandatorily enforce it? If it's not voluntary then it's not incriminating

I will check FF timeline again to see if there is any conflicts

I don't like these people for a number of reasons. I'm resisting judging them for possible criminal implication because much of what I don't like has limited worth in that connection

 

[31550]

Fall from balcony very unlikely because unlikely to die (100-1) and if he did it would be hours later not immediate. Unconscious perhaps? Then why rush?

Falls are overwhelmingly the most common cause of injury to toddlers. So, while a low probability of death, it's 1 per cent of a very large population sample. This sample includes falls from low objects, not balconies as high as FGM's. It's a very high balcony. What if it wasn't a fall but a push?
The rush to conceal may have been due to the fact that someone wanted to conceal the injury/death altogether - protection of the person responsible. With the FF due to return home at some stage, perhaps the plan was concealment from him as well. The plan may have been to conceal the entire incident from FGM and Williams sister as well. This requires very speedy action. No time to wait around. Quickly take him somewhere before anyone notices.

Why does she disagree with the timing?

Because it doesn't fit her narrative?

This time was the approx time neighbours heard a vehicle and mistook it for the postman's vehicle..why was it thought to be the postman's vehicle? Was it because he stopped and started again like a postman does. Does that description match a car pulling up ....grabbing WT and then leaving again?

Or it could have been the neighbours hearing the FGM car backing out of the driveway, then taking off down Benaroon Drive? Or even returning. The neighbours both reported hearing a vehicle turning on the gravel, but their idea of timing was ~20? minutes apart from each other.

Guilty people usually refer to their victims in past tense

On what do you base this assertion?

From what I have read about witness statements and 'made-up' stories, the analysis seems to suggest that people speaking in past tense are more likely to be recalling actual events (truth), whereas when they use present tense they are more likely to be drawing from imagination (lies).

 

[31550]

Wallace52 I agree he spoke for her often. The police interview was poor because he created no boundaries and allowed him to speak for her when supposedly not there.

Do FPs have a right to relinquish that secrecy or is it the police that mandatorily enforce it? If it's not voluntary then it's not incriminating

I will check FF timeline again to see if there is any conflicts

I don't like these people for a number of reasons. I'm resisting judging them for possible criminal implication because much of what I don't like has limited worth in that connection

Legislation prevents revealing the foster status of William's sister. This therefore extends to the FM and FF as former carers. There are further court orders in place preventing the media from revealing their identity (among other things).
As I understand it, there is nothing stopping the FM or FF giving a public media interview, provided they did not identify themselves, or do anything to identify William's sister. I mean, they have already done the Michael Usher interview - why couldn't they do another similar one if they wanted to?

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Falls are overwhelmingly the most common cause of injury to toddlers. So, while a low probability of death, it's 1 per cent of a very large population sample. This sample includes falls from low objects, not balconies as high as FGM's. It's a very high balcony. What if it wasn't a fall but a push?
The rush to conceal may have been due to the fact that someone wanted to conceal the injury/death altogether - protection of the person responsible. With the FF due to return home at some stage, perhaps the plan was concealment from him as well. The plan may have been to conceal the entire incident from FGM and Williams sister as well. This requires very speedy action. No time to wait around. Quickly take him somewhere before anyone notices.


Because it doesn't fit her narrative?

Or it could have been the neighbours hearing the FGM car backing out of the driveway, then taking off down Benaroon Drive? Or even returning. The neighbours both reported hearing a vehicle turning on the gravel, but their idea of timing was ~20? minutes apart from each other.

On what do you base this assertion?

From what I have read about witness statements and 'made-up' stories, the analysis seems to suggest that people speaking in past tense are more likely to be recalling actual events (truth), whereas when they use present tense they are more likely to be drawing from imagination (lies).

Peter Hyatt and 2 1/2 hr McCann analysis. Very informative. He actually runs courses on the subject and consults to FBI.

No I haven't done a course so my comments are mirroring his comments rather than formal analysis

The major take aways were that if a parent of a missing child had no involvement that they would speak of what the child is going through ......I hope he is being cared for, not being hurt etc etc. whereas a parent that mostly had concern for themselves already knows the child is dead. They should refer to child in present tense because they are supposedly still alive not past tense which reflects guilty knowledge. In looking at that interview they are refereeing in present tense, showing anguish about what might be happening to him. She did have comments about how it affected them but the focus was on William.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Falls are overwhelmingly the most common cause of injury to toddlers. So, while a low probability of death, it's 1 per cent of a very large population sample. This sample includes falls from low objects, not balconies as high as FGM's. It's a very high balcony. What if it wasn't a fall but a push?

The study I linked was about falls from balconies only. It then sought to itemise the prevalence of injuries by type but the interesting finding was that there was only 1 death amongst something like 86 sample size if I recall . They even had heights of balconies to determine correlation.The study was suitable to FGM balcony.

The conclusions I draw were that:

• The damage goes consistent with height
• The ground surface has an effect. Less forgiving cement greater trauma

If someone was pushed they have less chance to brace and more chance to injury..

When I was young approx 8-10 I was an active kid. We had a huge tall tree at fenceline that we would climb. One day I lost my grip and fell awkwardly probably maybe 6' shorter than FGM balcony height..I hit face first on side of face/ head on dirt ground. It felt like someone cracking me with a baseball bat. Terrible feeling.. zero injury.

 

[js47]

Injuries are not perfect incidents every injury is unique. William could have caught his head and jaw on something if he fell and you could just imagine the outcome of that. IMO what would be found in an autopsy is really the big issue here. It gives incentive to REALLY concentrate on a quick disposal.

 

[js47]

Second Impact Syndrome can cause death if some one has had a head injury and has not recovered completely from the first one. William had an injury earlier and had a black eye. This could be a cause of death if he died. Caused by a fall or a slap to the head through an accident or for other reasons.

 

[Wallace52]

Wallace52 I agree he spoke for her often. The police interview was poor because he created no boundaries and allowed him to speak for her when supposedly not there.

Yes, that’s very true. And the issue of boundaries has gone back and forth between them, and eventually the FM became the nominated spokesperson. That happened slowly over time. IMO.

Do FPs have a right to relinquish that secrecy or is it the police that mandatorily enforce it? If it's not voluntary then it's not incriminating

They quasi-recently fought for their suppression orders to be extended until mid 2025. They were up against a number of large media organisations whom had banded together to lift the orders, and unfortunately the media lost.

The foster parents (former) didn’t have to fight the media for the orders to be modified or lifted. They could have allowed their suppression to be lifted at that point. AFAIK.

Iirc this judgement was handed down in 2022.

I will check FF timeline again to see if there is any conflicts

I don't like these people for a number of reasons. I'm resisting judging them for possible criminal implication because much of what I don't like has limited worth in that connection

Ah yes, I see what you’re saying. IMO, only God can truly judge them.

If you’ve heard the recordings of them berating and assaulting <the 11 year old foster child in their care>, of the FM trying to “break” her and withholding hygiene products from her, throwing out her possessions, refusing to wash her clothes and telling her she smelt like a homeless person, and that’s just the “non-violent” spectrum of the behaviour; you know there is more to them than the delightful proper suburban couple they have always purported to be.

The facts stand: The FM has assaulted a foster child. The FF intimidated a foster child and was convicted. As did the FM. Both fosters are under orders in the community. The FF is under a good behaviour bond and the FM is on a community corrections order.

It might just be a coincidence that William went missing from two carers who’ve behaved in an abhorrent way to a different foster child.

Coincidences do happen.

There’s no evidence to suggest they hurt William.

If I lost a foster child, and I had the privilege to continue to raise the surviving child who was the sibling of the child who I lost, I would thank my lucky stars I still had the other child in my custody and do my level best to give that person the best life possible.

Why try and “break” someone who’s already lost her brother?

Don’t forget that little girl had sit in the car during the family drive back from Kendall to Sydney with William’s empty seat in the back with her, in September 2014 - and she never, ever saw him again.

How must she have felt coming home without the only brother that she had the privilege of being raised alongside?

And as I understand, the child continued to be separated from her other biological siblings for the next 7 years. How isolating and heartbreaking would that have been?

Hadn’t she lost enough? Hadn’t she endured enough with the loss of William? Didn’t she deserve better treatment in the years that followed than what she received? < according to recordings and evidence played to the Courts? >

I just wanted to add that when the foster parents turn up to court with their Where’s William? missing persons campaign ribbons pinned to their breasts, it really grinds my gears.

Because I think, if they missed William so badly and wanted to find him, they should have seen his spirit in his sister and held her in the highest regard, in the way they treated her. To honour her brother if not for any other reason.

That would have been more effective than wearing a ribbon. IMO.

Second Impact Syndrome can cause death if some one has had a head injury and has not recovered completely from the first one. William had an injury earlier and had a black eye. This could be a cause of death if he died. Caused by a fall or a slap to the head through an accident or for other reasons.

This ^^^

Good one, js47 . You might be onto something there.

 

[js47]

that poor little girl.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Second Impact Syndrome can cause death if some one has had a head injury and has not recovered completely from the first one. William had an injury earlier and had a black eye. This could be a cause of death if he died. Caused by a fall or a slap to the head through an accident or for other reasons.

This has been discussed here before. Yes absolutely a risk. And the possible evidence is the repeated stories of falls and black eyes. Black eyes are after all one of the symptoms of a fractured skull. This is entirely possible so that a less deadly fall may cause death.. If I recall correctly too an existing fractured skull then struck again can cause an immediate fatal head bleed. The protection that is supposed to exist from the skull ceases to offer protection from the fracture

 

[Wallace52]

This has been discussed here before. Yes absolutely a risk. And the possible evidence is the repeated stories of falls and black eyes. Black eyes are after all one of the symptoms of a fractured skull. This is entirely possible so that a less deadly fall may cause death.. If I recall correctly too an existing fractured skull then struck again can cause an immediate fatal head bleed. The protection that is supposed to exist from the skull ceases to offer protection from the fracture

Omg.

And that would account for
(A) a fatal fall and
(B) no or little actual blood loss that would have caused residue on the ground

IMO

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Omg.

And that would account for
(A) a fatal fall and
(B) no or little actual blood loss that would have caused residue on the ground

IMO

Possible and would explain more reason for hiding body.. Pre-existing injuries

 

[Poppy Penny]

The posts today have been great. Too tired, weary to add further comments. This case has angered and frustrated me for far too long. Keep up the great work.

 

[31550]

Possible and would explain more reason for hiding body.. Pre-existing injuries

Very likely explanation. Note William's biological mother's concern for William's physical well-being on her last access visit.
Have SFR obtained records from Young Hope, FACS and William's Day-Care centre? All of these are required by law to document any physical injuries to a foster child. Was there a pattern of injury? Or did nobody bother to look?

 

[Wallace52]

The posts today have been great. Too tired, weary to add further comments. This case has angered and frustrated me for far too long. Keep up the great work.

Thanks, Poppy. We will get there - eventually.

 

[Wallace52]

Have SFR obtained records from Young Hope, FACS and William's Day-Care centre? All of these are required by law to document any physical injuries to a foster child. Was there a pattern of injury? Or did nobody bother to look?

I’m sure they did and it’s all in the brief that they compiled for the Prosecutor when they were looking to charge her.

The team left no stone unturned.

IMO

 

[31550]

left no stone unturned

Whoever first applied that phrase to the investigation deserves a medal

 

[LRitz]

Second Impact Syndrome can cause death if some one has had a head injury and has not recovered completely from the first one. William had an injury earlier and had a black eye. This could be a cause of death if he died. Caused by a fall or a slap to the head through an accident or for other reasons.

I think you will find second impact syndrome is pretty rare. How many previous head injuries had there been? There was the black eye (some weeks I can't recall) before. It had been reported and (I think) he had been medically checked (happy to be corrected).
Black eye was said to be due to a fall. Black eyes due to trauma to face or nose are the usual cause. Yes, can mean skull fracture but this would have had to have been a major incident (concussion ) and may have two black eyes.
I can hear the zebras now.