Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * Coroners Inquiry Current

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[Wallace52]

To play devils advocate, I can imagine the skeleton thing being said in the context of 'the cops are so inept it'll take them 40 years to find it'......

Absent thought: she did say 40 years didn't she??

Funny that's the same period for which the identity of the high ranking officer will be concealed......

Are Cataholic’s allowed to play devils advocate? Jokes aside, she said 50 years and then she said 200 years and also 40. So she was just throwing numbers around.

Is she really so silly to not know that human bones break down over time? There’s going to be nothing left in 40 years time or 200 years time and there’s probably not much left now. It’s a 10 year long missing persons investigation involving the person she calls her “son”. Surely she’s done a bit of research on what the men and women searching might expect to find?

If my child was missing I would want to know whatever I could, and I would try to get my head around all of the ins and outs of forensics, because I would be trying to solve their disappearance and I am sure she was also trying to solve her son’s disappearance. Surely?!

On a side note, I recently listened to the story of Greg Lynn, Russell Hill and Carol Clay, in which the killer Lynn drove back and chucked some logs and kerosene on the bodies months after he placed them in a bush grave.

“I started to get nervous that this plan was unravelling, and then you knocked on my door,” he later told Sergeant Florence and Leading Senior Constable Passingham.

Lynn may have disposed of the campsite evidence, but there was still something in the bush that had the potential to bring him unstuck — the bodies.

With the city facing more lockdowns and travel restrictions, Lynn had to be patient.

Seven months after the campers’ deaths, Lynn made another journey into Victoria’s remote High Country.

This time, he was headed to Union Spur Track — where he had left the bodies of Mr Hill and Ms Clay under a pile of sticks and leaves.

“They were decomposing,” he later told the police.

Lynn placed some extra logs and kerosene on the bodies and lit a match.

He said he sat by the fire for hours until all that was left were tiny fragments of bone.

“I just used a dustpan to scoop it up and throw it around. There is literally nothing there,” he said.

“I’d never wanna go back there.”

In the months after the Union Spur trip, Lynn said he continued to look over his shoulder, fearing the police would come knocking again. Life felt like the movie The Truman Show, he said, where everybody seemed to know something that he didn’t.

Mobile phone pings, a burnt-out campsite and the 'Button Man': Inside the missing campers investigation

A camping trip brought Carol Clay and Russell Hill to a remote pocket of Victoria — but the pair would never emerge from the Wonnangatta Valley.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Cataholic]

Imagine the audacity of sending a brief of evidence to the ODPP on nothing but a theory? And the ODPP holding it for how long, over one year or so?

If there was nothing but speculation or an idea, I'd have expected the ODPP to have returned it promptly, with great force.

There's been a lot of pressure for a conviction in this case.

If it were a slam dunk there would've been an arrest by now.

It would seem the brief has enough circumstantial evidence to interest the ODPP, but the passage of time also suggests they need more to make it stick.

Anyhow, we're not fully conversant with all the testimony and circumstantial evidence so there's more to play out, but unless they drop a bombshell I have reservations about a successful prosecution of any suspect.

 

[31550]

They had a great surveillance warrant where she (the FM) confided in at least one confidant…vis a vis skeletons and such.

Then they had her before the Crime Commission for 2 days where she wasn’t allowed to refuse to answer questions….
The court only saw 4 hours of that. So there’s been other questions asked and answered that we’ve not seen.

So they could analyse all of the surveillance materials and cross-check with all of her NSWCC answers to check for lies and inconsistencies.

They have a lot of tendency evidence regarding a propensity to hurt children and not be forthcoming about it.

Now they just need a body, which is a problem because, well, if she is the body shifter, she’s had 5 years to get ahead of this investigation without being under much scrutiny.

That’s the biggest problem. IMO.

I am guessing the police surveillance warrant ran out and the Judge or Magistrate refused to grant them another one and tick tock, time was up, so they went back to the inquest and are hoping to apply for another warrant at a later time?

Not sure. But if the warrant is up and they don’t have enough evidence to lay charges, the Inquest would be the next logical step.

All imo

With all their powers and investigative prowess in ten years they haven't been able to confirm exactly if, when, where and why she drove her mother's car that day. No witness can confirm or deny it happened. So anything could have happened during that drive, or indeed the whole time between 9:37 and 10:35. There is no hard evidence placing William, his sister, the FM, or the FGM anywhere for certain during this period.
While this remains the case, there is always reasonable doubt. The FM knows this. Police know this. The coroner knows this. Unless they can prove the FMs story is a lie, no matter how ridiculous and improbable it seems, it has to be accepted by default. Nobody saw William leave the property and he hasn't been seen since. It's either incredible cunning by someone, incredible luck on behalf of someone or incredible ineptitude on behalf of the cops.

 

[Wallace52]

It would seem the brief has enough circumstantial evidence to interest the ODPP, but the passage of time also suggests they need more to make it stick.

I think their warrants ran out and they went to Inquest to further their case a different way. I fully expect the charges to be picked back up after Inquest. IMO

 

[Wallace52]

With all their powers and investigative prowess in ten years they haven't been able to confirm exactly if, when, where and why she drove her mother's car that day. No witness can confirm or deny it happened. So anything could have happened during that drive, or indeed the whole time between 9:37 and 10:35. There is no hard evidence placing William, his sister, the FM, or the FGM anywhere for certain during this period.
While this remains the case, there is always reasonable doubt. The FM knows this. Police know this. The coroner knows this. Unless they can prove the FMs story is a lie, no matter how ridiculous and improbable it seems, it has to be accepted by default. Nobody saw William leave the property and he hasn't been seen since. It's either incredible cunning by someone, incredible luck on behalf of someone or incredible ineptitude on behalf of the cops.

I would say they have the metadata by now on the phone pings from the FM phone in the FGM car.

That’s how they were so sure of where it stopped.

IMO

We aren’t guessing, we aren’t bluffing, we know where, we know when etc <paraphrased by me>

 

[Cataholic]

I would say they have the metadata by now on the phone pings from the FM phone in the FGM car.

That’s how they were so sure of where it stopped.

IMO

We aren’t guessing, we aren’t bluffing, we know where, we know when etc <paraphrased by me>

If they have that data they'd know time of arrival, time on scene, time of departure, speed and directions of travel.

That would tell them whether there was sufficient time on site to do anything specific, or just enough time to maybe meet someone.

 

[Lady O]

I've listened to that episode again.

- an inquest is only held when police have exhausted all avenues of enquiry.

- it is rare for police to air dirty laundry in public.....ie concealing the identity of a high ranking police officer who committed a high range DUI offence.......yet they went after GJ aggressively in public view.

- police refused to allow CL to testify with supporting evidence in GJ's trial, even though they'd had differences

- the FP's believe GJ is / was the only police officer with genuine concern for WT

- the FP's are scathing of the new police command, who allegedly lie (ie no handover between GJ and DL) and ghost them

- the FP's are particularly scathing of the indifference displayed by SC and DL, who allegedly (to paraphrase) tell them to 'join the queue'

- a month later, whilst the inquest is still in progress, the police pivot their attention to the FM and announce her a POI.

Upon listening again, I think the matter of the high ranking PO has come into focus to highlight the outlier treatment of GJ, how that infighting has probably derailed the investigation, and the fact that the matter has now been shunted to Unsolved, who (the FP's believe) will only periodically blow the dust off the file.

It's a mess, and I can't help but agree with the FP's when they say the police lost focus on WT.

There seems to be a lot of illegal initials being used in this post. CL? SC? DL?

 

[Kurve]

There seems to be a lot of illegal initials being used in this post. CL? SC? DL?

That's right.

Please refer Cataholic to the sticky

 

[Underarrest_]

I think their warrants ran out and they went to Inquest to further their case a different way. I fully expect the charges to be picked back up after Inquest. IMO

It’s strange though, the brief of evidence sat with the DPP for so long and then nothing.
My understanding is that if the Coroner believes there’s enough evidence to charge someone, they can stop the inquest and refer back to the police to lay charges.
This hasn’t happened, yet, anyway.

 

[Wallace52]

It’s strange though, the brief of evidence sat with the DPP for so long and then nothing.
My understanding is that if the Coroner believes there’s enough evidence to charge someone, they can stop the inquest and refer back to the police to lay charges.
This has happened, yet, anyway.

Well, Peter the truck driver has hardly given the Coroner a reason to pause and suspend the inquest!!

 

[Wallace52]

That would tell them whether there was sufficient time on site to do anything specific, or just enough time to maybe meet someone.

I don’t agree. The meta data wouldn’t indicate what it was that the FM did at the scene, unless she sat there and Googled how to hide a body, or how to commit the perfect crime, or even why is my husband such an immature, shoddy husband?

Now don’t all rush at me. She claims she is innocent and vehemently denies all allegations. Husband denies he is immature and shoddy, also vehemently.

 

[Underarrest_]

Well, Peter the truck driver has hardly given the Coroner a reason to pause and suspend the inquest!!

No doesn’t seem to be the case.

 

[Wallace52]

It’s strange though, the brief of evidence sat with the DPP for so long and then nothing.

Yeah maybe they were waiting for the warrant to run out and then boom, the briefs swing back to the cops like a boomerang.

 

[Underarrest_]

Are Cataholic’s allowed to play devils advocate? Jokes aside, she said 50 years and then she said 200 years and also 40. So she was just throwing numbers around.

Is she really so silly to not know that human bones break down over time? There’s going to be nothing left in 40 years time or 200 years time and there’s probably not much left now. It’s a 10 year long missing persons investigation involving the person she calls her “son”. Surely she’s done a bit of research on what the men and women searching might expect to find?

If my child was missing I would want to know whatever I could, and I would try to get my head around all of the ins and outs of forensics, because I would be trying to solve their disappearance and I am sure she was also trying to solve her son’s disappearance. Surely?!

On a side note, I recently listened to the story of Greg Lynn, Russell Hill and Carol Clay, in which the killer Lynn drove back and chucked some logs and kerosene on the bodies months after he placed them in a bush grave.

“I started to get nervous that this plan was unravelling, and then you knocked on my door,” he later told Sergeant Florence and Leading Senior Constable Passingham.

Lynn may have disposed of the campsite evidence, but there was still something in the bush that had the potential to bring him unstuck — the bodies.

With the city facing more lockdowns and travel restrictions, Lynn had to be patient.

Seven months after the campers’ deaths, Lynn made another journey into Victoria’s remote High Country.

This time, he was headed to Union Spur Track — where he had left the bodies of Mr Hill and Ms Clay under a pile of sticks and leaves.

“They were decomposing,” he later told the police.

Lynn placed some extra logs and kerosene on the bodies and lit a match.

He said he sat by the fire for hours until all that was left were tiny fragments of bone.

“I just used a dustpan to scoop it up and throw it around. There is literally nothing there,” he said.

“I’d never wanna go back there.”

In the months after the Union Spur trip, Lynn said he continued to look over his shoulder, fearing the police would come knocking again. Life felt like the movie The Truman Show, he said, where everybody seemed to know something that he didn’t.

Mobile phone pings, a burnt-out campsite and the 'Button Man': Inside the missing campers investigation

A camping trip brought Carol Clay and Russell Hill to a remote pocket of Victoria — but the pair would never emerge from the Wonnangatta Valley.

www.abc.net.au

Yet police were doing things Greg Lynn had no idea about, like placing surveillance in his house while he was home (asleep) and his son was actually awake. Unbelievable what police do and I think as much as the FPs would think they’re smart and know what police are up too, they wouldn’t have any idea of the lengths they go too.
Same as Brett Cowan being flown around the country with his new found friends and job.

 

[Wallace52]

Yet police were doing things Greg Lynn had no idea about, like placing surveillance in his house while he was home (asleep) and his son was actually awake.

I am not too familiar with the case, but that is absolutely amazing.

Unbelievable what police do and I think as much as the FPs would think they’re smart and know what police are up too, they wouldn’t have any idea of the lengths they go too.

I can only hope!!

Same as Brett Cowan being flown around the country with his new found friends and job.

Classic move!

 

[Kurve]

Yet police were doing things Greg Lynn had no idea about, like placing surveillance in his house while he was home (asleep) and his son was actually awake. Unbelievable what police do and I think as much as the FPs would think they’re smart and know what police are up too, they wouldn’t have any idea of the lengths they go too.
Same as Brett Cowan being flown around the country with his new found friends and job.

I'd strongly suspect the FPs would have known the lengths the police went to, to convict Brett Cowan of Daniel's murder. It was a really high profile case.

Cowan's murder trial was in February 2014. William went missing only 7 months later in the September.

 

[Cataholic]

That's right.

Please refer Cataholic to the sticky

Apologies.

I couldn't see reference to these. Is there something I missed?

 

[Kurve]

Apologies.

I couldn't see reference to these. Is there something I missed?

Can you see the sticky at the top of every page?

 

[Cataholic]

Can you see the sticky at the top of every page?

Yes......

Does the last bit essentially mean no initials should be used at all?

 

[Underarrest_]

I'd strongly suspect the FPs would have known the lengths the police went to, to convict Brett Cowan of Daniel's murder. It was a really high profile case.

Cowan's murder trial was in February 2014. William went missing only 7 months later in the September.

These two cases were so close.
I think FPs would be on alert but not know all the tactics and it would be easy to let your guard down if time has passed and you have trust in someone. As an example and not saying they can’t trust Box but they seem quite prepared to have secret meetings with him.

 

[Kurve]

Yes......

Does the last bit essentially mean no initials should be used at all?

Not if we can easily understand who you're referring to.

 

[Wallace52]

These two cases were so close.
I think FPs would be on alert but not know all the tactics and it would be easy to let your guard down if time has passed and you have trust in someone. As an example and not saying they can’t trust Box but they seem quite prepared to have secret meetings with him.

Clearly, he has earned their trust.

And I think he’s got their backs. I think they can trust him.

 

[Wallace52]

Yes......

Does the last bit essentially mean no initials should be used at all?

It just lightens the cognitive load when you can actually just spell the names of people out in full.

Not those under suppression of course, but everyone else.

I’m reading your post and I keep stopping to translate what your intended initials are and it’s slowing me down!

 

[Underarrest_]

Clearly, he has earned their trust.

And I think he’s got their backs. I think they can trust him.

I would trust no one.
Except my dog

 

[Wallace52]

I would trust no one.
Except my dog

Or cat! Or chook! I trust my chook implicitly!

I'd strongly suspect the FPs would have known the lengths the police went to, to convict Brett Cowan of Daniel's murder. It was a really high profile case.

Not only that but Bruce and Denise probably yarned-up with the fosters, sharing their trauma and bonding over that.

They were very aware of Daniel’s case as the Morecombe’s auspiced for them for a while, amirite?

Cowan's murder trial was in February 2014. William went missing only 7 months later in the September.

For some reason I’m thinking of Alison Baden-Clay’s funeral. Didn’t the police put a a covert microphone in the flowers in an attempt to catch the womanising murderous husband Gerard?