Play Nice Derailed, (The Place to Continue Off-Topic Discussion)

[Scritchyscroony]

Faith in science caused people to walk into gas chambers. I'll trust what you say is true.

This has been a day of learning.

You def should read some more genuine history. You didn't know about the role of medical science in the holocaust??

There's a reason Nazis who addressed transport arrivals wore white lab coats. Despite often not being doctors, they would don the lab coat before addressing the new arrivals.

T4 program is a good starting point for a review of your unassailable faith in "science". I can give you many more.

Human psychology doesn't change much. History is your friend .. it's echoes and informs... Try some.

 

[JB1975]

You def should read some more genuine history. You didn't know about the role of medical science in the holocaust??

There's a reason Nazis who addressed transport arrivals wore white lab coats. Despite often not being doctors, they would don the lab coat before addressing the new arrivals.

T4 program is a good starting point for a review of your unassailable faith in "science". I can give you many more.

Human psychology doesn't change much. History is your friend .. it's echoes and informs... Try some.

Thanks mate, I'm pretty informed about historical matters, and the kindest term I can think of for what you've written is gibberish.

Medical science was used to create a system of industrial-scale slaughter: no s***.

This is rather different from saying that the Jews walked to their deaths because of a 'faith in science'. The death camps also had human ashes pouring from chimneys and soldiers and German Shepherds lining the path from train to chamber.

Those poor people were under no illusion about their fate; what they did or didn't believe about science had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Many of the Jews in the Holocaust didn't die in chambers, they were gunned down in the fields of Eastern Europe as the Germans advanced towards Russia. Do you think they believed they were going out to do a spot of farming?

What you've written is offensive.

 

[76woodenspooners]

You def should read some more genuine history. You didn't know about the role of medical science in the holocaust??

There's a reason Nazis who addressed transport arrivals wore white lab coats. Despite often not being doctors, they would don the lab coat before addressing the new arrivals.

T4 program is a good starting point for a review of your unassailable faith in "science". I can give you many more.

Human psychology doesn't change much. History is your friend .. it's echoes and informs... Try some.

I get what you’re trying to point out - the value of being skeptical about science - but not sure the holocaust was a great example.

It was a scientist who came up with the rather daft idea of adding lead to petrol - that killed 10’s of millions of people. Scientists once thought thalidomide was a good idea. It was science that came up with applications for asbestos.

One of the whole points of science is to be sceptical and to challenge it. That’s how it advances.

Barely 6 human lifetimes ago our best understanding of the atom was Thompson’s plum pudding model. Today your average year 8 science student knows better than that. I know 3 year old kids who have a better understanding of the solar system than the very best of scientific knowledge in the pre-Copernicus Judeo-Christian world.

Centuries into the future high school kids will reflect on how naive the best scientists of today were.

In my own opinion (as a non-scientist) human understanding of the biological / medical sciences today isn’t great, I reckon it’s centuries behind our understanding of the physical sciences. But it’s the best we have. And I typically favour it ahead of snake oil salesmen, or US Presidents who suggest drinking bleach to cure Covid might be a good idea.

IMO skepticism in science shouldn’t be about discrediting it, it should be about advancing it.

 

[jmac70]

Depends where they split the globe to flatten it out. If they split it down your street your neighbor would become kms away 40,000. jmac70 is advocating for the divide to occur in Footscray

Trouble is it would also make my bottle shop 40,000 km away.
That’s a long bike ride.

 

[jonbe54]

I get what you’re trying to point out - the value of being skeptical about science - but not sure the holocaust was a great example.

It was a scientist who came up with the rather daft idea of adding lead to petrol - that killed 10’s of millions of people. Scientists once thought thalidomide was a good idea. It was science that came up with applications for asbestos.

One of the whole points of science is to be sceptical and to challenge it. That’s how it advances.

Barely 6 human lifetimes ago our best understanding of the atom was Thompson’s plum pudding model. Today your average year 8 science student knows better than that. I know 3 year old kids who have a better understanding of the solar system than the very best of scientific knowledge in the pre-Copernicus Judeo-Christian world.

Centuries into the future high school kids will reflect on how naive the best scientists of today were.

In my own opinion (as a non-scientist) human understanding of the biological / medical sciences today isn’t great, I reckon it’s centuries behind our understanding of the physical sciences. But it’s the best we have. And I typically favour it ahead of snake oil salesmen, or US Presidents who suggest drinking bleach to cure Covid might be a good idea.

IMO skepticism in science shouldn’t be about discrediting it, it should be about advancing it.

No argument with that '76 but over the last 4 or 5 decades there has been a very significant dilution in 'pure science' or anything that smacks of 'unorthodoxy'.

Science is becoming increasingly restricted to following proven and productive lines of investigation.

This is corporate speak for 'show me the money or no funding'.

All of the 'great leaps forward' in human history have been due to pioneering breakthroughs by minds unchained to scientific orthodoxy and the scientific community has turned to penalizing those within it's ranks that 'dilute' corporate ends.

This smacks of a species in decline.

 

[jathanas]

You def should read some more genuine history. You didn't know about the role of medical science in the holocaust??

There's a reason Nazis who addressed transport arrivals wore white lab coats. Despite often not being doctors, they would don the lab coat before addressing the new arrivals.

T4 program is a good starting point for a review of your unassailable faith in "science". I can give you many more.

Human psychology doesn't change much. History is your friend .. it's echoes and informs... Try some.

Pretending to be a doctor isn't medical science when used in that sense.

When discussing the various topics we do on this site, we might at times forget how sensitive some of the material we casually touch on is; we shouldn't.

Using this innacurate angle of history to frame science a certain way is disingenuous.

 

[sideswipe]

Pretending to be a doctor isn't medical science when used in that sense.

When discussing the various topics we do on this site, we might at times forget how sensitive some of the material we casually touch on is; we shouldn't.

Using this innacurate angle of history to frame science a certain way is disingenuous.

Notwithstanding the very ordinary use of the Holocaust, it is kind of amusing to think that “scientific discussion” has arisen on the Ginni thread.

Think our little goal kicker would be closer to Jesse than Walter White in the science stakes.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[gerryg400]

Notwithstanding the very ordinary use of the Holocaust, it is kind of amusing to think that “scientific discussion” has arisen on the Ginni thread.

Think our little goal kicker would be closer to Jesse than Walter White in the science stakes.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Godwin's law tells us that every thread is headed this way.

 

[76woodenspooners]

No argument with that '76 but over the last 4 or 5 decades there has been a very significant dilution in 'pure science' or anything that smacks of 'unorthodoxy'.

Science is becoming increasingly restricted to following proven and productive lines of investigation.

This is corporate speak for 'show me the money or no funding'.

All of the 'great leaps forward' in human history have been due to pioneering breakthroughs by minds unchained to scientific orthodoxy and the scientific community has turned to penalizing those within it's ranks that 'dilute' corporate ends.

This smacks of a species in decline.

I think about the technology of the pyramids and stone henge and it would seem that human understanding of science is not a linear thing but rather goes in cycles. It can be corrupted (eg: Lead in petrol), coopted (eg: weapons development) or even suppressed (eg: imprisonment of Galileo) in man’s quest for wealth and power.

 

[jathanas]

No argument with that '76 but over the last 4 or 5 decades there has been a very significant dilution in 'pure science' or anything that smacks of 'unorthodoxy'.

Science is becoming increasingly restricted to following proven and productive lines of investigation.

This is corporate speak for 'show me the money or no funding'.

All of the 'great leaps forward' in human history have been due to pioneering breakthroughs by minds unchained to scientific orthodoxy and the scientific community has turned to penalizing those within it's ranks that 'dilute' corporate ends.

This smacks of a species in decline.

Your view might be a little cynical jonbe.

Life expectancy in the US since 1950 has grown from 68 to 79.

We get on average an extra 11 years on the planet to cast doubt on the progress of our species.

Humans innovate, it's what we have done and what we'll continue to do.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Notwithstanding the very ordinary use of the Holocaust, it is kind of amusing to think that “scientific discussion” has arisen on the Ginni thread.

Think our little goal kicker would be closer to Jesse than Walter White in the science stakes.

Dang, you found an incontrovertible way to liken Jack Ginnivan to Jesse White.

How did you do that?!?

 

[sideswipe]

Dang, you found an incontrovertible way to liken Jack Ginnivan to Jesse White.

How did you do that?!?

Pinkman not White.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[jonbe54]

I think about the technology of the pyramids and stone henge and it would seem that human understanding of science is not a linear thing but rather goes in cycles. It can be corrupted (eg: Lead in petrol), coopted (eg: weapons development) or even suppressed (eg: imprisonment of Galileo) in man’s quest for wealth and power.

No argument there '76 and I would contend that we are getting every deeper into a repressive downward cycle.

The question is . . .

Does this cycle represent a deep enough trough to permanently warp scientific outlook?

I contend that it has a strong chance of doing so.

 

[Scritchyscroony]

Thanks mate, I'm pretty informed about historical matters, and the kindest term I can think of for what you've written is gibberish.

Medical science was used to create a system of industrial-scale slaughter: no s***.

This is rather different from saying that the Jews walked to their deaths because of a 'faith in science'. The death camps also had human ashes pouring from chimneys and soldiers and German Shepherds lining the path from train to chamber.

Those poor people were under no illusion about their fate; what they did or didn't believe about science had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Many of the Jews in the Holocaust didn't die in chambers, they were gunned down in the fields of Eastern Europe as the Germans advanced towards Russia. Do you think they believed they were going out to do a spot of farming?

What you've written is offensive.

You make a whole bunch of straw man's then claim some imaginary offence. There is absolutely nothing offensive about what I've written or this discussion....unless it's suits you to find it so. So be offended .. nothing happens

That the Nazis put on white lab coats in order to use its authority to calm and persuade Jewish transport arrivals is a matter of historical fact. That Jews were this placated and would voluntarily walk into gas chambers is a matter of historical fact. If appearing to be a doctor was not useful to the Germans in psychologically making the Jews more compliant... why do you think they did it?

My point is that when the authority of science is misused and corrupted and used as a tool by politicians, you can have major problems. 'Science' and people's faith in it is a very powerful tool in any authoritarian regimes toolbox.

 

[jonbe54]

Your view might be a little cynical jonbe.

Life expectancy in the US since 1950 has grown from 68 to 79.

We get on average an extra 11 years on the planet to cast doubt on the progress of our species.

Humans innovate, it's what we have done and what we'll continue to do.

Most absolutely my view is cynical jathanas - deeply cynical - but with very good reason.

I turned 68 just a few weeks ago and I've seen a LOT.

Longevity is far from even a casting vote in my appraisal.

Considering the horrendous outcomes in climate and biological impacts on the planetary biome extending life spans whilst population increases are progressing without any form of control is tantamount to species suicide.

Corporate warping of the scientific community has never been more blatant, nor destructive to the pursuit of genuine pure science and the inspired breakthroughs it fosters.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Pretending to be a doctor isn't medical science when used in that sense.

When discussing the various topics we do on this site, we might at times forget how sensitive some of the material we casually touch on is; we shouldn't.

Using this innacurate angle of history to frame science a certain way is disingenuous.

There were a lot of Nazis in white coats meeting the transports in the camps. The incoming victims were given the most cursory of medicals to select some labourers among the stronger folk. I have seen this recently in documentary film and also in 'Schindler's List' which I rewatched because I was reminded of the movie by Schindler's Lift technicians, whose vehicles were parked in the basement several days recently while a belt on the middle lift was replaced. In my early days in my apartment building, I had a standard occasional quip in the lifts along the lines of 'I have heard of Schindler's List - perhaps Schindler's Lift is the sequel'.

The belt was to be replaced on a scheduled service back in April but was never ordered far enough ahead in time. The belt didn't arrive till August, so for safety reasons, the lift was out of action for 4 months. This delay was thanks to the mainland Chinese (again) and their infuriating lockdowns at the sound of a citizens sneeze, closing down cities and industries, with chaps in full PPE gear brandishing sticks, chasing corgis and other pets to kindly absolve their sick owners of the responsibility of the animal's care while in lockdown.

However I have no intention of drawing a link between white coats and science.

 

[JB1975]

You make a whole bunch of straw man's then claim some imaginary offence. There is absolutely nothing offensive about what I've written or this discussion....unless it's suits you to find it so. So be offended .. nothing happens

That the Nazis put on white lab coats in order to use its authority to calm and persuade Jewish transport arrivals is a matter of historical fact. That Jews were this placated and would voluntarily walk into gas chambers is a matter of historical fact. If appearing to be a doctor was not useful to the Germans in psychologically making the Jews more compliant... why do you think they did it?

My point is that when the authority of science is misused and corrupted and used as a tool by politicians, you can have major problems. 'Science' and people's faith in it is a very powerful tool in any authoritarian regimes toolbox.

Suggesting I've used straw man arguments is your straw man deflection from the fact that you don't really know what you're talking about.

Gas chambers were built a few years into the war, because the Germans wanted a way of killing Jews which used less manpower. The practice of using killing squads, which had been going on for a couple of years and which plenty of people were well aware of, was seen as too inefficient.

Jews knew what the Nazis were. If they hadn't already been shot, they'd been rounded up into ghettos before their date with destiny.

When the chambers became operational, they were herded upon the trains and moved to death camps which were a badly-kept 'secret'. If a few lab coats were on hand to help instil some calm, the presence of plumes of human ash, Nazi guards and attack dogs --as well as their own knowledge of what the Nazis were all about-- would have made them quite aware of the threat.

In other words, your reference to lab coats and the notion that Jews were unaware of imminent horror is irrelevant and ridiculous.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

You'd be better off pointing out that the Nazi ideology was defined by racial 'science', the sort of stuff which also informed our own White Australia policy at the start of the 20th century.

I've got no problem with anyone pointing out that science can be misused, but I'm opposed to the horrible misuse of history to prove such a point. Find better examples.

 

[Scritchyscroony]

I get what you’re trying to point out - the value of being skeptical about science - but not sure the holocaust was a great example.

It was a scientist who came up with the rather daft idea of adding lead to petrol - that killed 10’s of millions of people. Scientists once thought thalidomide was a good idea. It was science that came up with applications for asbestos.

One of the whole points of science is to be sceptical and to challenge it. That’s how it advances.

Barely 6 human lifetimes ago our best understanding of the atom was Thompson’s plum pudding model. Today your average year 8 science student knows better than that. I know 3 year old kids who have a better understanding of the solar system than the very best of scientific knowledge in the pre-Copernicus Judeo-Christian world.

Centuries into the future high school kids will reflect on how naive the best scientists of today were.

In my own opinion (as a non-scientist) human understanding of the biological / medical sciences today isn’t great, I reckon it’s centuries behind our understanding of the physical sciences. But it’s the best we have. And I typically favour it ahead of snake oil salesmen, or US Presidents who suggest drinking bleach to cure Covid might be a good idea.

IMO skepticism in science shouldn’t be about discrediting it, it should be about advancing it.

A healthy skepticism advances any field of endeavour and is essential when people assess what authority they are prepared to submit their faith to. Most people don't have a healthy enough skepticism imv.

I think the holocaust is THE singular best example of how science is easily corrupted and used as a tool of evil. We are talking about people's faith in science and there is no greater example of where that can go wrong than the holocaust.

I only have to walk out my door and see the cane toads hopping around to be reminded of how many times science has got it badly wrong.
I have faith in real science. It's when it gets mixed with big money or politics (or both) that my alarm bells start ringing.

 

[sideswipe]

There were a lot of Nazis in white coats meeting the transports in the camps. The incoming victims were given the most cursory of medicals to select some labourers among the stronger folk. I have seen this recently in documentary film and also in 'Schindler's List' which I rewatched because I was reminded of the movie by Schindler's Lift technicians, whose vehicles were parked in the basement several days recently while a belt on the middle lift was replaced. In my early days in my apartment building, I had a standard occasional quip in the lifts along the lines of 'I have heard of Schindler's List - perhaps Schindler's Lift is the sequel'.

The belt was to be replaced on a scheduled service back in April but was never ordered far enough ahead in time. The belt didn't arrive till August, so for safety reasons, the lift was out of action for 4 months. This delay was thanks to the mainland Chinese (again) and their infuriating lockdowns at the sound of a citizens sneeze, closing down cities and industries, with chaps in full PPE gear brandishing sticks, chasing corgis and other pets to kindly absolve their sick owners of the responsibility of the animal's care while in lockdown.

However I have no intention of drawing a link between white coats and science.

Schindler's Lifts could be a prequel - they were around long before Oskar.

 

[noideaatall]

I get what you’re trying to point out - the value of being skeptical about science - but not sure the holocaust was a great example.

It was a scientist who came up with the rather daft idea of adding lead to petrol - that killed 10’s of millions of people. Scientists once thought thalidomide was a good idea. It was science that came up with applications for asbestos.

One of the whole points of science is to be sceptical and to challenge it. That’s how it advances.

Barely 6 human lifetimes ago our best understanding of the atom was Thompson’s plum pudding model. Today your average year 8 science student knows better than that. I know 3 year old kids who have a better understanding of the solar system than the very best of scientific knowledge in the pre-Copernicus Judeo-Christian world.

Centuries into the future high school kids will reflect on how naive the best scientists of today were.

In my own opinion (as a non-scientist) human understanding of the biological / medical sciences today isn’t great, I reckon it’s centuries behind our understanding of the physical sciences. But it’s the best we have. And I typically favour it ahead of snake oil salesmen, or US Presidents who suggest drinking bleach to cure Covid might be a good idea.

IMO skepticism in science shouldn’t be about discrediting it, it should be about advancing it.

I have completely lost faith in anything you post. No doubt you will disown this particular reasoning by this evening. You are a flipperty jibbet IMO & I am certainly not going to be led down the garden path again simply because what you post sounds good.

 

[Kirby]

No argument there '76 and I would contend that we are getting every deeper into a repressive downward cycle.

The question is . . .

Does this cycle represent a deep enough trough to permanently warp scientific outlook?

I contend that it has a strong chance of doing so.

Total poppycock

Permanently warp scientific outlook???

 

[JB1975]

Total poppycock

Permanently warp scientific outlook???

A 'repressive downward cycle'? To 'permanently warp scientific outlook'?

It's like reading a lunatic's weather forecast.

 

[sr36]

Absolutely - I'm always reminded of the single greatest fact in human experience though - today's 'scientific fact' is tomorrow's fallacy.

In the scale of human history it was only a few minutes ago that doctors were advising their patients to smoke cigarettes to ease stuttering.

That's not an attack on the medical profession TRS just a simple fact we are an ignorant species with more to learn than we can ever comprehend.

Calling them "scientific facts" is faith and not really science. They are the most credible widely held theories based on current evidence.

Feel free to argue with any "scientific fact" if you are an expert on the subject, but otherwise, it's best to assume that the theories most widely held by experts are probably right, even though some will turn out to not be.

 

[Scritchyscroony]

Pretending to be a doctor isn't medical science when used in that sense.

When discussing the various topics we do on this site, we might at times forget how sensitive some of the material we casually touch on is; we shouldn't.

Using this innacurate angle of history to frame science a certain way is disingenuous.

Your whole post is disingenuous.
1. We are talking about FAITH in medical science and how its authority can be corrupted and abused. Putting on a white coat is the perfect example of this. In the context of the discussion, there is nothing inaccurate about this angle whatsover. Your claim that is is though...
2. The Nazi racial theories were adopted by 'science' which then set about "proving" them. They even corrupted archaeology in their attempts to create a scientific basis for these theories.
3. A discussion of sciences key role in the holocaust is in no way insensitive or offensive. Go to Yad Veshyn and you will see that THE official holocaust remembrance and study organisation are happy to have people discussing these matters because it may help avoiding any recurrence. You will also find whole sections devoted to discussing medical sciences key role in the holocaust.

I don't think they'd appreciate the way some try to shut down discussion around the holocaust by saying 'its too sensitive'.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

Schindler's Lifts could be a prequel - they were around long before Oskar.

Thanks. We live and learn. I will keep that in mind for the next time that silence seems uncomfortable in a crowded lift.