Crows squad circa 2011

[sydney_crow]

This is what I'd like to see happen:

Delist/Retire:

• Edwards (done)
• Goodwin (done)
• Burton (done)
• Hentschel (a formality)
• McLeod (see Vader comments - club icon who should quit while he's ahead)
• Doughty (only just clinging to a spot now...you'd have to imagine in another year he wouldn't be worthy of a place even as a depth player)
• Stevens (see Doughty - Sellar/Young/Otten/Talia can provide adequate coverage of his swingman role)
• Donnelly (failed experiment)

Upgrade:

• Jaensch (shown enough quality to be 1st 22 player)
• Henderson (as per Jaensch)
• Schmidt (he takes the depth player role that Doughty might otherwise have had...age was the deciding factor)

Trade potential

• Cook (see what Collingwood have to offer)
• Griffin (only if he asks for a trade)
• McKernan (again only if the go-home factor applies and he wants a trade)

Borderline retentions:

• Symes (beats out Doughty for spot on list due to age but don't see him as 1st 22)
• Jacky (contracted; above and beyond that he's worth taking a(nother) punt on purely because he plays the role that we desperately need...crumbing, high pressure small forward)

Not sure how many spots that leaves us needing to fill but that would be a squad to build the future around.

 

[Vader]

You mentioned Doughty a few times there. Unlike you, I'm fairly sure he'll still be on our list in 2011 - unless he decides to pull the plug himself.

Firstly, with Goodwin, Burton, Edwards and McLeod all gone (or going), Doughty will be the only player eligible for the veterans list in 2011. This means that he's not competing for a position on the senior list. He's competing with the last potential selection in the rookie draft.

Assuming we make the changes you've suggested (excluding Doughty), then the maths is as follows:
National Draft
Senior Players Delisted: 5
Senior Players Promoted to Veterans List: 1
Rookies Promoted to Senior List: 3
Total National Draft Selections = 3

Rookie Draft
Veterans Retired: 2
Veterans Promoted: 1
Rookies Promoted to Senior List: 3
Total Rookie Draft Selections: 4

Thus, the Doughty decision comes down to Doughty vs 5th Round Rookie Draft selection. Given that he's still performing adequately, I'll take the bird in the hand.

It's possible that we may shed some players via trade - but it's equally likely that we'd be adding replacements in the same manner. I've ignored trades in the calculations above, due to the uncertainty of what we would be giving up and receiving in return.

Secondly, you've pretty much stated that it's a choice between Schmidt and Doughty fighting for a "depth player" role. I disagree, as I regard Doughty as being well entrenched in our best 22 - not a depth player at all. However, assuming you're right, it's still a choice between Schmidt and Doughty. I'd take Doughty every time and twice on gameday - but that's just me.

 

[craig crowing]

This is what I'd like to see happen:


Delist/Retire:

• Edwards (done)
• Goodwin (done)
• Burton (done)
• Hentschel (a formality)
• McLeod (see Vader comments - club icon who should quit while he's ahead)
• Doughty (only just clinging to a spot now...you'd have to imagine in another year he wouldn't be worthy of a place even as a depth player)
• Stevens (see Doughty - Sellar/Young/Otten/Talia can provide adequate coverage of his swingman role)
• Donnelly (failed experiment)

Upgrade:

• Jaensch (shown enough quality to be 1st 22 player)
• Henderson (as per Jaensch)
• Schmidt (he takes the depth player role that Doughty might otherwise have had...age was the deciding factor)

Trade potential

• Cook (see what Collingwood have to offer)
• Griffin (only if he asks for a trade)
• McKernan (again only if the go-home factor applies and he wants a trade)

Borderline retentions:

• Symes (beats out Doughty for spot on list due to age but don't see him as 1st 22)
• Jacky (contracted; above and beyond that he's worth taking a(nother) punt on purely because he plays the role that we desperately need...crumbing, high pressure small forward)

Not sure how many spots that leaves us needing to fill but that would be a squad to build the future around.

Good overall analysis except views on Jacky as no way is he a crumbing ,high pressure ,small forward .
He might have been recruited to be hasnt turned out to be a crumbing etc fwd..
After 3 seasons at Crows not able to stay in Eagles teams and given a opportunity again this season after 2 games dropped again .
Previous Eagles coaching staff had a C P against his name .
But for some reason had a 2 yr contract but cant see why keep him especially when can upgrade another of our rookies that are doing so well . Cannot see why some posters think Jacky worth holding on to
No way Doughty will be delisted might retire but doubt it very much.
Believe if Crows dont give Schmidt a game before end of year that he wont be elevated and will need to do well. Could be wrong of course.

 

[lunacy]

Armstrong, Gunston and Martin ahead of Reilly, Doughty and Symes. Not sure what you're smoking, but it must be some fairly strong stuff.

Ease up. Symes is actually in the 25. I dont know why I had in "the rest" category as well. However, regarding the others, I actually see Reilly, Doughty and Stevens being overtaken at some stage next year. Handy depth players though.

Gee I think you're underestimating Armstrong, Gunston and Martin. Some are actually asking for them to be ahead of Doughty already so dont be too shocked Vader. I think we'll finally go with a bit more speed next year. Reilly and Symes are very slow and Doughty is only a bit quicker. Its not everything but you cant have too many. Thats why Symes is in my 25 along with Thompson and Vince (not as slow but far from quick).

 

[sydney_crow]

You mentioned Doughty a few times there. Unlike you, I'm fairly sure he'll still be on our list in 2011 - unless he decides to pull the plug himself.

Firstly, with Goodwin, Burton, Edwards and McLeod all gone (or going), Doughty will be the only player eligible for the veterans list in 2011. This means that he's not competing for a position on the senior list. He's competing with the last potential selection in the rookie draft.

Assuming we make the changes you've suggested (excluding Doughty), then the maths is as follows:
National Draft
Senior Players Delisted: 5
Senior Players Promoted to Veterans List: 1
Rookies Promoted to Senior List: 3
Total National Draft Selections = 3

Rookie Draft
Veterans Retired: 2
Veterans Promoted: 1
Rookies Promoted to Senior List: 3
Total Rookie Draft Selections: 4

Thus, the Doughty decision comes down to Doughty vs 5th Round Rookie Draft selection. Given that he's still performing adequately, I'll take the bird in the hand.

It's possible that we may shed some players via trade - but it's equally likely that we'd be adding replacements in the same manner. I've ignored trades in the calculations above, due to the uncertainty of what we would be giving up and receiving in return.

Secondly, you've pretty much stated that it's a choice between Schmidt and Doughty fighting for a "depth player" role. I disagree, as I regard Doughty as being well entrenched in our best 22 - not a depth player at all. However, assuming you're right, it's still a choice between Schmidt and Doughty. I'd take Doughty every time and twice on gameday - but that's just me.

All very well reasoned opinions in keeping with the Vader trademark...and the Veterans list point is one I didn't factor in appropriately.

That said the point I'd make is that I'm extrapolating Doughty's performance trend from 2009 to 2010 and out into 2011 (and looking to Edwards/Burton for precedent) and suggesting that there are other younger players that I'd be keeping ahead of him such as Schmidt, Symes and Reilly - none of whom I see as regular first 22 players in 2011.

 

[Vader]

Ease up. Symes is actually in the 25. I dont know why I had in "the rest" category as well. However, regarding the others, I actually see Reilly, Doughty and Stevens being overtaken at some stage next year. Handy depth players though.

Gee I think you're underestimating Armstrong, Gunston and Martin. Some are actually asking for them to be ahead of Doughty already so dont be too shocked Vader. I think we'll finally go with a bit more speed next year. Reilly and Symes are very slow and Doughty is only a bit quicker. Its not everything but you cant have too many. Thats why Symes is in 25 along with Thompson and Vince (not as slow but far from quick).

You won't get any arguments about me when it comes to Stevens. I wouldn't be surprised (or disappointed) to see him gone at the end of this year - assuming he's out of contract.

Reilly is criminally underrated on this board. He's one of our best clearance winners and is developing into a reasonable tagger, if his job on Moloney is anything to go by. Unlike Shirley though, he's able to combine an offensive game with the tag. Doughty's importance is similarly underestimated.

Symes is neither here, nor there. I don't believe he's in our best 22, but he's probably in our best 25 (which is why he gets a game every week - as we never have all 22 available at the same time). He has his good points, but he also has his bad points.

Martin has played 2 games and Gunston only 1. They still have a lot to prove before they displace anyone permanently. I'd suggest that they're unlikely to be come regulars until 2012, though they will both play multiple games in 2011 - not unlike Henderson, Armstrong and Cook in 2010.

Armstrong will probably take McLeod's position in the team on a permanent basis in 2011, not displacing Doughty, Reilly or Symes.

 

[Vader]

That said the point I'd make is that I'm extrapolating Doughty's performance trend from 2009 to 2010 and out into 2011 (and looking to Edwards/Burton for precedent) and suggesting that there are other younger players that I'd be keeping ahead of him such as Schmidt, Symes and Reilly - none of whom I see as regular first 22 players in 2011.

I don't know that Doughty's performance has dropped off all that much, it's just that he's been forced to play a different role due to those cursed injuries. Last year he was playing more as a midfield tagger, this year he's been playing mainly in defence - so that Rutten has at least one player alongside him who doesn't need his diapers replaced every few hours. We saw on the weekend that he's still capable of playing good footy when he was returned to the midfield for the first time this year. I certainly don't see the deterioration which we saw in Edwards & Burton towards the end of 2009. That said, we all know how quickly the end can come for players aged 30+ - old man time waits for nobody.

I'd be keeping Symes and Reilly ahead of him. I'd take Doughty over Schmidt in a heartbeat, even if Doughty only has 1 season left in him. I really don't rate Schmidt much at all.

 

[lunacy]

You won't get any arguments about me when it comes to Stevens. I wouldn't be surprised (or disappointed) to see him gone at the end of this year - assuming he's out of contract.

Reilly is criminally underrated on this board. He's one of our best clearance winners and is developing into a reasonable tagger, if his job on Moloney is anything to go by. Unlike Shirley though, he's able to combine an offensive game with the tag. Doughty's importance is similarly underestimated.

Symes is neither here, nor there. I don't believe he's in our best 22, but he's probably in our best 25 (which is why he gets a game every week - as we never have all 22 available at the same time). He has his good points, but he also has his bad points.

Martin has played 2 games and Gunston only 1. They still have a lot to prove before they displace anyone permanently. I'd suggest that they're unlikely to be come regulars until 2012, though they will both play multiple games in 2011 - not unlike Henderson, Armstrong and Cook in 2010.

Armstrong will probably take McLeod's position in the team on a permanent basis in 2011, not displacing Doughty, Reilly or Symes.

Yes Reilly is a good clearance player, but we have Thompson, Sloane (who'll only get better), Danger and Vince who are all good at clearances. I prefer VB as a run with player over Reilly. So I feel we are not too bad for clearance players or inside mids, but I think we need to add some outside/run and carry players to our team so I've brought in Martin and Armstrong along with Otten who's a given.

Plus hopefully we get some of what we're after in the draft.

I've actually been a big rap for Doughty although his output has dropped significantly this year. Its more of a projection towards next year and believe if a player like Armstrong plays most of the remaining games this year plus has another preseason I think he'll be in our top 25. I'm saying to retain Doughty but believe he will slowly continue decline in output. It's just a number but only the real stars like Mcleod, Goodwin, Riccuito, Buckley etc can play great footy after about 31 years of age.

 

[Allefgib]

You won't get any arguments about me when it comes to Stevens. I wouldn't be surprised (or disappointed) to see him gone at the end of this year - assuming he's out of contract.

Reilly is criminally underrated on this board. He's one of our best clearance winners and is developing into a reasonable tagger, if his job on Moloney is anything to go by. Unlike Shirley though, he's able to combine an offensive game with the tag. Doughty's importance is similarly underestimated.

Symes is neither here, nor there. I don't believe he's in our best 22, but he's probably in our best 25 (which is why he gets a game every week - as we never have all 22 available at the same time). He has his good points, but he also has his bad points.

Martin has played 2 games and Gunston only 1. They still have a lot to prove before they displace anyone permanently. I'd suggest that they're unlikely to be come regulars until 2012, though they will both play multiple games in 2011 - not unlike Henderson, Armstrong and Cook in 2010.

Armstrong will probably take McLeod's position in the team on a permanent basis in 2011, not displacing Doughty, Reilly or Symes.

IMO Symes can find more of the footy, contested at that, than both Reilly and Doughty. He also puts his body on the line far more often and with greater ability to create opportunities for his team mates. He tackles more often and provides more run. He is also very good as the 'third man up' in ruck contests (particularly boundary throw-ins) which His stats for the last 2 years reflect a better output than Reilly and on par with Doughty - and he is younger than Doughty by 6 years and Reilly by 2. He'll play more footy in our best 22 going forward than Doughty/Reilly will even if they never miss another game through injury.

His biggest issue obviously is his disposal - but I reckon he has minimised his issues when fully fit and firing.

Check out our win against Melb:
Disposals and DE%
Reilly - 19 at 68%
Doughty - 24 at 71%
Symes - 28 at 86%

Tackles
Reilly - 3
Doughty - 4
Symes - 4

Contested Possessions and clearances
Reilly - 6 to 5
Doughty - 5 to 1
Symes - 9 to 6

Clangers
Reilly - 1
Doughty - 0
Symes - 1

Inside 50's and rebound 50's
Reilly - 1 and none
Doughty - 5 and none
Symes - 8 and 3

1%'s
Reilly - 0
Doughty - 5 (good job)
Symes - 2 (was hoping for more here)

Now those guys both had jobs on the weekend, but as Symes builds up the expected muscle mass of those older guys who have been in our system longer I can see him becoming that type of player as well. Never stops, relentless attack on the footy and total committment every second of the game.

You claim Reilly/Dogga underestimated and then you make 'neither here nor there' claims about Symes... me thinks you are being hypocritical Vader

 

[cmndstab]

Wood Duck - I've nominated VB as captain under the "Governer DeMarley rule" - when there's only one candidate, there's only one choice


Nobody else on our list stands out as an option other than VB. The only query will be whether or not injuries will prevent him from getting on the park because while he hasn't turned into the superstar we might have hoped, he's in our best 22 every day of the week and has leadership qualities in spades. Captaincy is no longer about being the best player in your team, but rather about having the "all or nothing" mentality on-field - you need to have the off-field leadership qualities in abundance, and the ability to set an example on-field. Van Berlo is the clear standout.

That being said, I don't think he'll be a long-term captain. Couple of years and then it'll be Danger Time