Coach Grumpy

[Phone]

I asked the question and I don't think the answers in that article really count as 'wild mood swings'. The writer is at pains to keep reiterating that none of the examples on their own tell the story and you have to add them up, likely because none of the stories seem particularly wild. Not saying there's no truth to the rumours, but just as equally, could be two people that don't get along because of different levels of intensity, and let's be honest, Australian cricket coach is a more intense job than media manager.

The fourth paragraph also contains:

Some players didn’t like walking past Langer’s seat on the team bus lest they prompted a negative response. If things weren’t going well, the odd player would ask,“How’s the grumpy coach?”

Which is not a major story, but is an instantly recognisable feeling for anyone who has a hot and cold authority figure in their life. And to me, the FoxSports article about the changed training session around the time Langer found out he didn't get as much cash as the players from the doco, when combined with Langer's earlier apology for his behaviour on this matter, seems awfully coincidental. And of course that relates to Conn's main point in his article (as he literally says in the article), Langer blowing up about things that don't matter*, like Marnus' sandwich in the dug-out (so not onto the playing field meaning no-one can draw a long bow to ball tampering) and Ellis wearing a watch onto the field on his maiden tour under Langer (of course, Australian cricket is filled with weridos who hate it when players wear 'jewellery' onto the field, as we see and hear in most BBL's....)

Now, I'm reminded of Atherton's article during the KP saga, where he points out that if you mention every little grievance in a dressing room, you end up with a distorted picture, and I'm sure that's partially true here. I'm sure there were weeks where everything was fine. But equally, there's a death by a thousand cuts feel to it, and given everything that has actually happened since these stories first came out, I don't think there's very much reason to believe that the rumours about the "mood-swings" being an issue with the playing group are untrue. It's a fact that the CEO and Chairman got involved and shook things up. I doubt they did that because they heard only the story of Marnus' sandwich and they felt they had no other option. And once that happened, it's awfully hard to see how a contract that made both sides happy could ever been found (which of course is exactly what happened)

*I would argue even if Langer quote unquote deserved more money, an individual not getting a better deal than a union doing some collective bargaining falls very much in the "who cares" field.

 

[deanc]

The bowling group who knew nothing about the ball tampering you mean?

Who all had the pill in their hand for about 95% of the overs bowled at Cape Town in that innings you mean?

Who noticed nothing about the ball being dodgy?

Those guys you mean?

Bancroft was dead set dumb as dog sh*t to fall for that, but he sure didn't load that gun. And if anyone reckons the bowling unit knew nothing then give me a ring, I've got a nice bridge for sale in Sydney

Respectfully, love the faux outrage here, specifically from those who apparently have never in their life denied any knowledge of an action or situation that can never be proven, but will implicate them..? SK Warne (Mum gave me the pills/my brother placed the bets) being the biggest hypocrite here, ha ha...

Visiting some old old ground - but purely from a cricketing law perspective, the incident was so overblown it's not funny..!
Whereas, after the discovery of the related shenanigans, the ball was not changed, no penalty runs were awarded, it was simply an abyssal plan and an embarrassing attempt to influence the condition of the ball.

In summary, my view was and remains, any bowlers related knowledge of this plan is irrelevant - for one thing, aside from avoiding sanction/penalty, why would anyone admit to having any knowledge of or being involved in such a preposterous misadventure..?

 

[Westend]

I was mainly talking about the Haigh article where he mentioned the dinner payment.

Having said that, I don't think the argument with Boon would be considered wild behaviour.

The core group of players that were responsible for sandpapergate are in charge again.

Yeah its a bit strange the bowlers who bowled on that infamous sandpapergate day at Newlands Cummins Starc Hazelwood Lyon Marsh (marsh not part of the test team atm) who are still part of the test team have not come out and said anything about Langer funny that isn't ??

Strangely quiet ? perhaps they want bangers to make a statement again on there behalf ??

Or perhaps they haven't noticed anything wrong with Langers coaching ??? as they didn't notice anything wrong with the ball at Newlands ??

 

[Tugga27]

The fourth paragraph also contains:



Which is not a major story, but is an instantly recognisable feeling for anyone who has a hot and cold authority figure in their life. And to me, the FoxSports article about the changed training session around the time Langer found out he didn't get as much cash as the players from the doco, when combined with Langer's earlier apology for his behaviour on this matter, seems awfully coincidental. And of course that relates to Conn's main point in his article (as he literally says in the article), Langer blowing up about things that don't matter*, like Marnus' sandwich in the dug-out (so not onto the playing field meaning no-one can draw a long bow to ball tampering) and Ellis wearing a watch onto the field on his maiden tour under Langer (of course, Australian cricket is filled with weridos who hate it when players wear 'jewellery' onto the field, as we see and hear in most BBL's....)

Now, I'm reminded of Atherton's article during the KP saga, where he points out that if you mention every little grievance in a dressing room, you end up with a distorted picture, and I'm sure that's partially true here. I'm sure there were weeks where everything was fine. But equally, there's a death by a thousand cuts feel to it, and given everything that has actually happened since these stories first came out, I don't think there's very much reason to believe that the rumours about the "mood-swings" being an issue with the playing group are untrue. It's a fact that the CEO and Chairman got involved and shook things up. I doubt they did that because they heard only the story of Marnus' sandwich and they felt they had no other option. And once that happened, it's awfully hard to see how a contract that made both sides happy could ever been found (which of course is exactly what happened)

*I would argue even if Langer quote unquote deserved more money, an individual not getting a better deal than a union doing some collective bargaining falls very much in the "who cares" field.

The Tom Morris article says Langer singled out 6 players.
Not sure why he would do that if all of the players were getting the same.

Langer agreed he was pissed off about the pay discrepancy but I doubt he
would single out 6 blokes for extra training because of it.

This is a bloke who knocked back a 6 figure bonus for winning the WC.

I think more to the point, Is CA looking for the person who kept leaking information to the media?
I read there were only 4 people in the room.
Can't be that hard.

 

[Trent the flight Steward]

And CA's 'investigation' & action when informed 2 years ago was?

The same, really hope it doesn't come out, until they wanted it to,

 

[Phone]

The Tom Morris says Langer singled out 6 players.
Not sure why he would do that if all of the players were getting the same.

Langer agreed he was pissed off about the pay discrepancy but I doubt he
would single out 6 blokes for extra training because of it.

This is a bloke who knocked back a 6 figure bonus for winning the WC.

I think more to the point, Is CA looking for the person who kept leaking information to the media?
I read there were only 4 people in the room.
Can't be that hard.

I think it's probably reasonable to assume that it was the members of the batting squad, and then give or take some numbers based on whatever niggles players had. You'd be begging for a mutiny if you forced the bowlers into a punishing training session that had been scheduled as a light training session

The players certainly seemed to believe that it was causing problems...

edit I guess I should note that Tom Morris article very much deals with the mood-swings thing much more than Conn ever did as far as I recall

 

[deanc]

I think it's probably reasonable to assume that it was the members of the batting squad, and then give or take some numbers based on whatever niggles players had. You'd be begging for a mutiny if you forced the bowlers into a punishing training session that had been scheduled as a light training session

The players certainly seemed to believe that it was causing problems...

edit I guess I should note that Tom Morris article very much deals with the mood-swings thing much more than Conn ever did as far as I recall

Or - it's also 'probably reasonable' that little Tommy is spinning believable fairytales..? Sadly, it's a long way from him emulating his hero, Caroline Wilson, as for one thing there is very few 'unknown sources tell me' or 'reports suggest' in the article, but still his effort is commendable...

 

[Broar]

Or - it's also 'probably reasonable' that little Tommy is spinning believable fairytales..? Sadly, it's a long way from him emulating his hero, Caroline Wilson, as for one thing there is very few 'unknown sources tell me' or 'reports suggest' in the article, but still his effort is commendable...

I doubt it, an article from Andrew Wesbster stating that the amazon pay dispute created friction between the Langer and the playing group and that Langer wishes he had reacted differently.

‘I should’ve reacted differently’: Langer’s frustration at Amazon doco pay deal

At the end of the day you have five or six different journalists all referencing his behaviour and mood swings over a number of months. Yet I don't think I've seen Langer or any of his supporters come out to deny it.

 

[Tugga27]

I doubt it, an article from Andrew Wesbster stating that the amazon pay dispute created friction between the Langer and the playing group and that Langer wishes he had reacted differently.

‘I should’ve reacted differently’: Langer’s frustration at Amazon doco pay deal

At the end of the day you have five or six different journalists all referencing his behaviour and mood swings over a number of months. Yet I don't think I've seen Langer or any of his supporters come out to deny it.

AFAIK, Morris is the only one to say he punished the players in a gruelling training session.

I don't anyone has denied his behaviour at times.
Langer has admitted it himself.

 

[Farm Boy]

JL is a ripping bloke but he is hard as nails. His professional behaviour is not really wrong it just doesn’t match the era he is coaching in clearly.

The leaderless era, where no one has the courage to knock ball tampering on the head. No matter what era Langer is in, his integrity would translate to him being a great coach. He got shafted by a spineless bunch of blokes who are currently trying to pass the buck onto the next bloke. It’s pathetic to watch. Thankfully the old guard actually know JL, and speak of his intrigue and professionalism.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Boston tiger]

Yeah its a bit strange the bowlers who bowled on that infamous sandpapergate day at Newlands Cummins Starc Hazelwood Lyon Marsh (marsh not part of the test team atm) who are still part of the test team have not come out and said anything about Langer funny that isn't ??

Strangely quiet ? perhaps they want bangers to make a statement again on there behalf ??

Or perhaps they haven't noticed anything wrong with Langers coaching ??? as they didn't notice anything wrong with the ball at Newlands ??

What were they supposed to do if they noticed something wrong with the ball ?

 

[Broar]

AFAIK, Morris is the only one to say he punished the players in a gruelling training session.

I don't anyone has denied his behaviour at times.
Langer has admitted it himself.

Does it matter that Morris is the only one who has mentioned the training session?

Six months ago you have Webster stating that the amazon payments created friction between Langer and the players with Langer confirming that he should've behaved differently.

Then two days ago you have Tom Morris writing an article providing an example of that friction between Langer and the players. No one in that time has denied this happened Langer or the players involved.

On the day Langer found out the players had negotiated $41,000 more than him to appear in the documentary, he changed plans late and without warning.

On the whiteboard in Melbourne, a light fielding session was scheduled. It was supposed to be nothing more than a top-up on the MCG turf.

Langer, having just discovered he’d undervalued himself despite being the centrepiece of the production, took half-a-dozen players and torched them with a gruelling fitness and fielding session in the heat.

Those involved suspect the unplanned session was payback, though they will never be sure. At least two players vomited. They weren’t angry at being made to work hard, rather they were suspect it was the temperamental coach letting off steam.

MORRIS: The brutal $41K revenge act that exposed Justin Langer’s biggest flaw

It really doesn't seem like creative writing at all.

 

[11kgm]

Apparently all but two of the players who played under Langer made contact with him to thank him for his time

Taking guesses the two that didn't

Cummins and Smith/Warner

 

[Boston tiger]

The leaderless era, where no one has the courage to knock ball tampering on the head. No matter what era Langer is in, his integrity would translate to him being a great coach. He got shafted by a spineless bunch of blokes who are currently trying to pass the buck onto the next bloke. It’s pathetic to watch. Thankfully the old guard actually know JL, and speak of his intrigue and professionalism.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

So his integrity makes him a great coach ? He was a dud and he’s dragging everyone through the shit. His mates are all sticking up for him so the next umpteen reunions are not prickly affairs. Probably frightened of him
“I haven't really felt an urge to strike out, but when Steve Waugh told me I was dropped during the last Ashes tour, I didn't know whether you hug him or to knock him out. Either way, it would have been pretty ugly: if I was hugging him and crying on his shoulder or if I had knocked him out, I probably never would have played again.”

Cummins is the best thing that’s happened to Australian Test for along time.
If Justin Langer had any integrity he would have left with some class and not dragged our current Test heroes through the shit.

 

[Tugga27]

Does it matter that Morris is the only one who has mentioned the training session?

Six months ago you have Webster stating that the amazon payments created friction between Langer and the players with Langer confirming that he should've behaved differently.

Then two days ago you have Tom Morris writing an article providing an example of that friction between Langer and the players. No one in that time has denied this happened Langer or the players involved.


MORRIS: The brutal $41K revenge act that exposed Justin Langer’s biggest flaw

It really doesn't seem like creative writing at all.

No one (apart from Morris) has said it did happen either.

I seriously doubt a professional coach on around a million dollars a year would actually do something like this.

Funny how Morris conveniently didn't name anyone either.
Just write an article with no proof at all.

 

[Tugga27]

So his integrity makes him a great coach ? He was a dud and he’s dragging everyone through the sh*t. His mates are all sticking up for him so the next umpteen reunions are not prickly affairs. Probably frightened of him
“I haven't really felt an urge to strike out, but when Steve Waugh told me I was dropped during the last Ashes tour, I didn't know whether you hug him or to knock him out. Either way, it would have been pretty ugly: if I was hugging him and crying on his shoulder or if I had knocked him out, I probably never would have played again.”

Cummins is the best thing that’s happened to Australian Test for along time.
If Justin Langer had any integrity he would have left with some class and not dragged our current Test heroes through the sh*t.

Langer was the only one who showed any dignity.
Also, his record as coach shows he's far from a dud.

If you're pointing the gun, it should be at CA.

 

[Broar]

I think there are a lot of people think Langer has been hard done by. But he really hasn't this has been an ongoing saga for some time. He had multiple opportunities to change his ways and clearly he wasn't capable of doing that.

Here's a couple of good articles from Wu and Conn over a number of months, showing the situation spiraling out of control.

The state of affairs in the team is not mutinous or unanimous in that players have not taken their dissatisfaction higher up the chain at Cricket Australia. But while they won’t say anything publicly sources say some have spoken about it among themselves since the series against India wound up.https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/langer-s-intense-coaching-style-in-the-spotlight-after-testing-summer-20210129-p56xxs.html

A source with knowledge of the situation says Langer’s response during the remainder of the year will have a big bearing on whether the former Test opener’s contract is renewed.https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/pressure-on-langer-to-change-his-ways-as-reviews-turn-up-heat-on-embattled-coach-20210526-p57v9a.html

Langer, in hotel quarantine in Adelaide, is under pressure after a string of mediocre performances by the team combined with disharmony inside the dressing room from players unhappy with his intense management style and mood swings.https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/great-success-ca-responds-to-uncertainty-over-langer-s-future-20210818-p58jvi.html

A truce has been called between players and Langer after emergency meetings involving Cricket Australia chairman Earl Eddings and chief executive Nick Hockley to settle the dressing room crisis.https://www.smh.com.au/sport/cricket/paine-backs-langer-to-guide-australia-through-ashes-20210820-p58kfo.html

 

[Broar]

No one (apart from Morris) has said it did happen either.

I seriously doubt a professional coach on around a million dollars a year would actually do something like this.

Funny how Morris conveniently didn't name anyone either.
Just write an article with no proof at all.

Why on earth would he name his sources? Honestly if he wrote player x,y & z told me this happened his career as a journalist would be over. I don't get why you think he's making it up, he's pointed to a pretty specific event that's happened. It would be pretty foolish to write something so detailed only for it to never happen.

Also I'd like to add it doesn't really matter if that was Langers intention or not. From the players involved they believed once again he was being temperamental and moody. It's their perspective on the matter.

 

[GoDees2021]

That 29 aside from Smith was our best one basically there! It sure is better than playing Finch

Considering the first class record of under 30 for 3 years it likely would have made little to no difference in the slightest. Thats your smoking gun reason to sack a coach

 

[thejester]

I think you're cherry picking to suit your argument TBF.
It's common knowledge that Conn hates Langer and was out to get him after they had some blow ups.

Haigh not only mentioned dinner, he said he has heard from multiple sources what a kind and caring guy he is.

Unlike Conn, Haigh has no dog in this fight is more respected as a journo than Conn will ever be IMO.

Yep, Langer might've gone too far on occasions and was told to reign it in which he reportedly did.

That in some corners he's painted out to be some some physotic meglomamiac is laughable.

Who exactly is cherry picking? The only response you've made here is to Conn's piece, and that's only because you can smear him as having some kind of vendetta (the possibility that these 'blow ups' might be further proof that Langer is difficult to work is apparently dismissed out of hand). Saying that many people have testified Langer is a 'kind and caring guy' ignores that a) they have not worked with him and b) the meaning of the word 'volatile'.

 

[thejester]

And making the odd mistake doesn’t make you a bad person or leader. This is the problem these days, we magnify everything and make massive issues out of simply a heat of the moment slip of the tongue or stare down. We need to be better and overlook these things sometimes. I have no idea why we as a society like to cut people down who make a few little errors.

But what's being described isn't 'the odd mistake', it's a consistent pattern - consistent enough for a senior player to raise it with him to his face. And your whole perspective seems to be framed on the question of 'what is best for Justin Langer?' rather than 'what is best for the Australian cricket team?'

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Considering the first class record of under 30 for 3 years it likely would have made little to no difference in the slightest. Thats your smoking gun reason to sack a coach

Yet it’s still better than playing Finch

 

[BStaff17]

Pretty fair and sensible discussion from Binga in his podcast here. Unlike other closer team mates who are playing the man here.

Great to see Binga defend cummins here especially from shit comments from Johnson.

Said its not the players fault. It's there team not the coaches. Coaches are there to support them.

Also agreed CA handled it atrociously with the way Langer got treated by the process but Cummins has been thrown under the bus by CA.

 

[Voice of the G]

So his integrity makes him a great coach ? He was a dud and he’s dragging everyone through the sh*t. His mates are all sticking up for him so the next umpteen reunions are not prickly affairs. Probably frightened of him
“I haven't really felt an urge to strike out, but when Steve Waugh told me I was dropped during the last Ashes tour, I didn't know whether you hug him or to knock him out. Either way, it would have been pretty ugly: if I was hugging him and crying on his shoulder or if I had knocked him out, I probably never would have played again.”

Cummins is the best thing that’s happened to Australian Test for along time.
If Justin Langer had any integrity he would have left with some class and not dragged our current Test heroes through the sh*t.

How did Langer drag our current Test heroes through the shit.Would think the CA and the" media" have done that.

 

[The Passenger]

Bayliss is a grumpy old sod (turns 60 in December), was an average cricketer and aside from limited success in shorter forms of the game has achieved little as a coach in Test cricket, in summary a poor choice to succeed JL..! - Change my mind..?

If appointed, I predict 12 months into his tenure he'll sitting in CA boardroom explaining why he allegedly has little connection with his players - i.e. back to square one..!

If we're looking purely at results...

With Sri Lanka he went win, loss and a draw in three series against India. Sri Lanka's overall series record against India is 3W-3D-8L. His only other series loss was against Oz, which is par for the course for them. Of Sri Lanka's six best years by W/L ratio he was coach for two of them. 5W-4D-2L series record.

For England his series record was 7W-4D-5L which is probably about right with the talent at their disposal. The highlights being two pretty thorough dismantling's of India and South Africa in back to back summers.

All the above looks pretty good to me.

But really, the coach is a small part in the international cricket sphere. Bayliss benefited from having Sri Lanka's two best ever batsmen in their prime during his tenure, and two of England's best ever bowlers during his English sojourn. Conversely England's batting woes can be put down to the ECB's decision to sideline county cricket over the last half decade or so, largely in pursuit of world cup glory on home turf.