Expansion Canberra

[Fire]

I guess I just dont understand why a 12 day easter show should keep GWS out of their home ground for more than 2 weeks. I know there would be some setup and take down time but you could schedule 4 days either side of that and have them only miss 2 weeks.

 

[Zevon]

I guess I just dont understand why a 12 day easter show should keep GWS out of their home ground for more than 2 weeks. I know there would be some setup and take down time but you could schedule 4 days either side of that and have them only miss 2 weeks.

It’s a fair question but if you see the ground after the show it’s clear that a 4 day turnaround would be impossible. We’re talking about a turf surface that has had all manner of animals trampling on it in the muster most days, V8 cars driving around the boundary, horses galloping over it during riding displays… and I’m sure there’s stuff I’m still missing. The surface looks horrific as a result of all that and is in no fit state to host a footy game in the days and weeks immediately afterward.

I’m absolutely of the opinion that the Giants get a rough deal having to leave their home ground for such a long period early in the season, but a shorter turnaround after the show isn’t the answer unfortunately.

 

[Canberra Pear]

The giants should be funded more than the raiders, coz afl fans actually travel to Canberra to watch their teams. I reckon they'd add more to the local economy than traveling nrl fans that struggle to even travel to the next suburb, let alone interstate.

AFL fans do travel more, but considering the Raiders play four times as many home games in Canberra, and Manuka disproportionately hosts smaller teams, I'm not sure the Giants would bring more travelling fans in an average year.

But not the point. At least not my point.

It's not about justification for who gets paid more, it's about optics.

If the Canberra Lions, Canberra Griffins, or Canberra Giants (or any other alternate timeline local team) were getting paid $2.85m a year, people wouldn't care. And it couldn't be used as a cheap political point.

But it's an issue because the Giants aren't seen by the wider public as a real Canberra team. It shows the limits of the partnership. And the ceiling of the Giants in Canberra.

And it shows that us being "Giants territory" isn't a valid reason for Canberra to not get its own team.

 

[Bjo187]

AFL fans do travel more, but considering the Raiders play four times as many home games in Canberra, and Manuka disproportionately hosts smaller teams, I'm not sure the Giants would bring more travelling fans in an average year.

But not the point. At least not my point.

It's not about justification for who gets paid more, it's about optics.

If the Canberra Lions, Canberra Griffins, or Canberra Giants (or any other alternate timeline local team) were getting paid $2.85m a year, people wouldn't care. And it couldn't be used as a cheap political point.

But it's an issue because the Giants aren't seen by the wider public as a real Canberra team. It shows the limits of the partnership. And the ceiling of the Giants in Canberra.

And it shows that us being "Giants territory" isn't a valid reason for Canberra to not get its own team.

I think the point is though if the Canberra times rugby mob hadn't been pushing this narrative all the time through their paper, the average punter wouldn't know or care anyway.

Really 2.8 mill is nothing in a state budget, but make the public think that it is by consistently mentioning it and by tying it to poor old rugby league not getting their stadium and you turn the locals against the giants. Trust me I saw the hit peice articles last year, there was one disgraceful one which is what got me looking into who the owner of the paper actually was.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I think the point is though if the Canberra times rugby mob hadn't been pushing this narrative all the time through their paper, the average punter wouldn't know or care anyway.

Really 2.8 mill is nothing in a state budget, but make the public think that it is by consistently mentioning it and by tying it to poor old rugby league not getting their stadium and you turn the locals against the giants. Trust me I saw the hit peice articles last year, there was one disgraceful one which is what got me looking into who the owner of the paper actually was.

I really don't think the Canberra Times has influenced this narrative as much as you think.

I'd say pro-Giants articles outweigh negative ones. But negative comments are much more frequent. They'll appear on every article where we've missed out on something (world cup games, A-League team, women's team funding etc).

Canberrans are more parochial than people realise. The narrative of money going to an interstate team isn't one that needs to be pushed, it's already prevalent.

And it'll continue to be a prevalent narrative until it goes to a local team.

It's similar to Tasmanians getting annoyed that their money has been propping up North.

 

[Badger17]

AFL fans do travel more, but considering the Raiders play four times as many home games in Canberra, and Manuka disproportionately hosts smaller teams, I'm not sure the Giants would bring more travelling fans in an average year.

Can we just stop with this nonsense.

There's no actual evidence that it's the case other than Andrew Barr just asserting that GWS games are a better return on investment than other teams without showing any evidence to support the claim. Kind of like how he asserted that he offered World Rugby a $10mil dollar package for World Cup games...

Honestly, you have to be pretty gullible to accept the idea that the Suns and Power are attracting more interstate travellers to Canberra than Easts and Penrith for example.

 

[errant bounce]

The situation between GWS and Canberra is a discussion of its own and most of that is down to a growth project only really being part time in their allocated growth area, as well as the squeezing of secondary markets and the need to make long term and considered appointments of who plays in Darwin, Alice Springs, Cairns, and the ACT.

But it seems like Canberra is in a total no man's land when it comes to major infrastructure.

It has two permanent rugby and a perennially threatened soccer team and a fair amount of international matches in those codes to absolutely justify a 30,000 seat stadium.

It also doesn't have a concert venue or indoor arena, but it also doesn't get arena acts or host arena sports. so I wonder if you could just double that up with an indoor rectangular stadium.

But then it also has a severely outdated oval that has had some ugly as sin big black box chucked up on one end without any serious thought. I think Manuka is a beautiful little ground and needs to retain that suburban, low key feel, but it can also do that with a nice big grandstand on the telecast side and an update to the outer and ends.

For a big-ish city, it's operating the two worst permanent venues for each major competition.

 

[Badger17]

I think the point is though if the Canberra times rugby mob hadn't been pushing this narrative all the time through their paper, the average punter wouldn't know or care anyway.

Really 2.8 mill is nothing in a state budget, but make the public think that it is by consistently mentioning it and by tying it to poor old rugby league not getting their stadium and you turn the locals against the giants. Trust me I saw the hit peice articles last year, there was one disgraceful one which is what got me looking into who the owner of the paper actually was.

Are you seriously suggesting that Australian Community Media has some vendetta against the AFL?

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

The giants should be funded more than the raiders, coz afl fans actually travel to Canberra to watch their teams. I reckon they'd add more to the local economy than traveling nrl fans that struggle to even travel to the next suburb, let alone interstate.

On the paper, I've read a bit of anti afl garbage in it in the past and i think i looked up previously that the owner is some stooge from nsw somewhere, i may be wrong though it was a year or so ago i looked into it, when seeing a lot of b.s articles with an agenda.

Maybe on a per game basis, assuming the travelling fan aspect to be true. But not overall for around a third of the matches.
Canberra Times was Rural Press which was bought by Fairfax, which was sold to Nine, and Nine then sold all (or almost all) Rural Press mastheads that were still open to someone. (Australian Community Media?)


Waislitz, one of the two owners, has been on the Collingwood board and married into the Pratt family. Hardly anti-AFL.

The other owner (who may be the one you looked up) is based in Byron Bay, and had his home raided by ASIC in October (over another company). https://www.mediaweek.com.au/media-roundup-nine-antony-catalano-news-corp-maggie-beer/
I haven't checked, but it would seem no charges have been laid.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

I think the point is though if the Canberra times rugby mob hadn't been pushing this narrative all the time through their paper, the average punter wouldn't know or care anyway.

Really 2.8 mill is nothing in a state budget, but make the public think that it is by consistently mentioning it and by tying it to poor old rugby league not getting their stadium and you turn the locals against the giants. Trust me I saw the hit peice articles last year, there was one disgraceful one which is what got me looking into who the owner of the paper actually was.

Having Sydney in the name makes it pretty bloody clear, like the Thunder in the BBL, that they are not a Canberra team.

 

[Badger17]

The situation between GWS and Canberra is a discussion of its own and most of that is down to a growth project only really being part time in their allocated growth area, as well as the squeezing of secondary markets and the need to make long term and considered appointments of who plays in Darwin, Alice Springs, Cairns, and the ACT.

But it seems like Canberra is in a total no man's land when it comes to major infrastructure.

It has two permanent rugby and a perennially threatened soccer team and a fair amount of international matches in those codes to absolutely justify a 30,000 seat stadium.

It also doesn't have a concert venue or indoor arena, but it also doesn't get arena acts or host arena sports. so I wonder if you could just double that up with an indoor rectangular stadium.

But then it also has a severely outdated oval that has had some ugly as sin big black box chucked up on one end without any serious thought. I think Manuka is a beautiful little ground and needs to retain that suburban, low key feel, but it can also do that with a nice big grandstand on the telecast side and an update to the outer and ends.

For a big-ish city, it's operating the two worst permanent venues for each major competition.

Look I don't necessarily disagree with the point you are making, but in this context the GWS deal and prioritising of Manuka over other infrastructure in the city is absolutely emblematic of a pattern of Barr prioritising his personal hobbies over the needs of the community as a whole.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Can we just stop with this nonsense.

There's no actual evidence that it's the case other than Andrew Barr just asserting that GWS games are a better return on investment than other teams without showing any evidence to support the claim. Kind of like how he asserted that he offered World Rugby a $10mil dollar package for World Cup games...

Honestly, you have to be pretty gullible to accept the idea that the Suns and Power are attracting more interstate travellers to Canberra than Easts and Penrith for example.

Exactly.

The Giants have never played a regular season match here against Collingwood, Carlton or Essendon.

But collectively they've hosted the Suns, Port and Bulldogs 15 times.

As travelling fans is a big justifier for the money, we should at least be getting more value.

 

[Bjo187]

Are you seriously suggesting that Australian Community Media has some vendetta against the AFL?

News.ltd 100 percent is anti afl in it's northern markets and pushes rugby league over afl on a national level. Lachlan Murdoch is on the Broncos board and close mates with v'landy's for crying out loud. All you need to do is look at the telegraph and their hit peices on the giants and 'invasion' crap over more than a decade to see. No surprises a leaguie like yourself doesn't see this though.

Having Sydney in the name makes it pretty bloody clear, like the Thunder in the BBL, that they are not a Canberra team.

What's your point here though? Do Canberra just have zero afl content coz it upsets the rugby fraternity that are always sooking over something, whilst having their hand out for public funds yet again? The giants games bumps up the economy from people traveling there and it brings the biggest sport to town 3x per year, it's good for the territory. The other Canberra clubs are well established, have their pokies dens they live off and don't bring many travelers. It also costs a lot less to run clubs in these sports than an AFL club, so that needs to be taken into account when financing a club to play games there.

Look I don't necessarily disagree with the point you are making, but in this context the GWS deal and prioritising of Manuka over other infrastructure in the city is absolutely emblematic of a pattern of Barr prioritising his personal hobbies over the needs of the community as a whole.

It's almost as bad as the biased from Albanese towards rugby league funding and the nsw governments continual funding of rugby league stadiums that get tiny crowds not justifying the outlay, over the scg.

Compare this Bruce situation to that of the scg, which has the biggest crowds in nsw sports via the swans and then the biggest summer crowds in nsw sport in cricket. Conveniently nsw governments allow them to play out of a stadium with 2 stands from the 1980s and 2 from the 1800s.

Bruce stadium was upgraded in the 90s, they reconfigured it to block the AFL out from playing there and it blew out 7x the estimated cost. The leader at the time lost their job over it apparently, so you can see why the current leader doesn't wanna tip more money into it again, the rugby crowds don't justify the outlay.

 

[Canberra Pear]

News.ltd 100 percent is anti afl in it's northern markets and pushes rugby league over afl on a national level. Lachlan Murdoch is on the Broncos board and close mates with v'landy's for crying out loud. All you need to do is look at the telegraph and their hit peices on the giants and 'invasion' crap over more than a decade to see. No surprises a leaguie like yourself doesn't see this though.

Australian Community Media isn't News Ltd.

 

[Bjo187]

Australian Community Media isn't News Ltd.

My mistake, I thought it was just a general term he was using for the media in Australia.

 

[PaythePerryman]

Exactly.

The Giants have never played a regular season match here against Collingwood, Carlton or Essendon.

But collectively they've hosted the Suns, Port and Bulldogs 15 times.

As travelling fans is a big justifier for the money, we should at least be getting more value.

Isn't this just because they'll pack Manuka against Port/Dogs (maybe not suns but close) anyway....
Then the Giants are a better chance at bigger crowds in Sydney?

Why do people want us to play the Pies in Canberra? I genuinely don't get it....Pies fixture for Round 0 at Engie is an incredible get for the club.

I honestly love going to Manuka, has a charm and it's a fun trip.

Dogs are our major rivals....that good value...has been for years.

Port are a finals team...have been for years = value

Suns...2 out of 3 ain't bad.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Isn't this just because they'll pack Manuka against Port/Dogs (maybe not suns but close) anyway....
Then the Giants are a better chance at bigger crowds in Sydney?

They still drag down our crowds, too. Of those 15 games, there's been one sell out (when the Dogs were flying and the rivalry was hot). Every other game hasn't passed 10.1k.

Why do people want us to play the Pies in Canberra? I genuinely don't get it....Pies fixture for Round 0 at Engie is an incredible get for the club.

I get we're never going to get Collingwood. But it sucks for Pies fans. There are a load here. I know more Pies fans than any others here.

But why not Essendon or Carlton? Carlton have never drawn more than 11.8k at Sydney Showgrounds. That would be pushing 15k at Manuka.

We had a poll of most supported teams in Canberra, and 42% of Canberran AFL fans supported teams that haven't played the Giants here (Collingwood, Carlton, Essendon, Sydney, West Coast).

Dogs are our major rivals....that good value...has been for years.

Port are a finals team...have been for years = value

Suns...2 out of 3 ain't bad.

They're still not the teams bringing in the crowds. The other two most played teams here are the Saints and Dees.

So 23 matches against the Suns, Dees, Saints, Dogs and Port (25 by the end of the year). One single match against the Richmond, Carlton, Collingwood or Richmond.

I know Canberra isn't in the Giants' long-term future, but it's a pretty lopsided partnership in the meantime.

 

[Badger17]

News.ltd 100 percent is anti afl in it's northern markets and pushes rugby league over afl on a national level. Lachlan Murdoch is on the Broncos board and close mates with v'landy's for crying out loud. All you need to do is look at the telegraph and their hit peices on the giants and 'invasion' crap over more than a decade to see. No surprises a leaguie like yourself doesn't see this though.

News Limited doesn't own the Canberra Times, so I don't see how it's really relevant.

Even so, anybody that thinks New Limited has a bias for the NRL is completely historically illiterate...

Setting the Super League war aside; the Daily Tele and blokes like Buzz Rothfield have thrived off raking muck the NRL's way. For every hit piece in the Daily Tele on the AFL there would have been 10 or more on the NRL or RL personalities over the years. Over the last few years alone Wests would have had more columns of nonsense written about them in News publications than all of their coverage of the AFL put together.

Even when News owned half of the NRL they consistently manufactured controversy around the NRL to push papers, and there wouldn't be a single major RL personality in the country that the Telegraph hasn't straight up lied about.

Lachlan Murdoch isn't on the Broncos board of directors either, so you're talking nonsense like always. It's an extremely long stretch to describe him and PVL as close mates as well. They'd have something of a working relationship sure, but they'd have met in person maybe a handful of times at most.

It's almost as bad as the biased from Albanese towards rugby league funding and the nsw governments continual funding of rugby league stadiums that get tiny crowds not justifying the outlay, over the scg.

Compare this Bruce situation to that of the scg, which has the biggest crowds in nsw sports via the swans and then the biggest summer crowds in nsw sport in cricket. Conveniently nsw governments allow them to play out of a stadium with 2 stands from the 1980s and 2 from the 1800s.

Bruce stadium was upgraded in the 90s, they reconfigured it to block the AFL out from playing there and it blew out 7x the estimated cost. The leader at the time lost their job over it apparently, so you can see why the current leader doesn't wanna tip more money into it again, the rugby crowds don't justify the outlay.

The SCG may be old, but it's well maintained and fit for purpose. If any stadium in Sydney needs rebuilding it's Accor, and you're high if you think Albo's done the NRL any favours. If anything he's handed them a poisoned chalice.

I don't appreciate your attempt to rewrite history I lived through either.

Bruce stadium was reconfigured to a rectangle so it could be used as a host for soccer during the Sydney Olympics.

At the time the reconfiguration was considered a better option than a new stadium because it was supposed to be significantly cheaper, and because it was home to three rectangular tenants (the Raiders, Brumbies, and Cosmos) and no oval ones despite many attempts to attract them. The AFL showed little interest in hosting games there after the various attempts to secure a local team had fallen through as well.

If anything the ACT government wanted more AFL and cricket content at Bruce, and it was the AFL and CA that shunned them, not the other way around.

The stadium cost blowouts were only part of the reason why Kate Carnell was dumped as well. Truth is that she was deeply incompetent and mangled most everything she touched. Her negligence cost a girl her life for Christ sake. She'd been walking the plank for years before the stadium cost blow outs controversy gained traction. They were just the political cutlass that was used to finally prod her overboard.

The "rugby" crowds not justifying the outlay is a funny little catch 22 you caught them in as well isn't it; the state of the stadium is the major reason why attendances are so low, but attendances being so low is the justification used for not addressing the state of the stadium.

 

[The Educator]

Can we just stop with this nonsense.

There's no actual evidence that it's the case other than Andrew Barr just asserting that GWS games are a better return on investment than other teams without showing any evidence to support the claim. Kind of like how he asserted that he offered World Rugby a $10mil dollar package for World Cup games...

You've got to be kidding me.

Blind freddy can see it is true.....and he would be relying in ticket data sales like everyother state and territory leader defending an investment in a sporting product

And then people can look at average crowds.....they can look AT the crowds across the country and how much support out of town teams get

They can look at grand finals, like the last one, where two non victorian teams result in a GF where there still is no GA tickets sold.....compared to the NRL which is giving away tickets on the day.

Honestly, you have to be pretty gullible to accept the idea that the Suns and Power are attracting more interstate travellers to Canberra than Easts and Penrith for example

You'd have to be thoroughly deluded to think that the AFL doesn't have many many more travelling fans
.

 

[The Educator]

The situation between GWS and Canberra is a discussion of its own and most of that is down to a growth project only really being part time in their allocated growth area, as well as the squeezing of secondary markets and the need to make long term and considered appointments of who plays in Darwin, Alice Springs, Cairns, and the ACT.

But it seems like Canberra is in a total no man's land when it comes to major infrastructure.

It has two permanent rugby and a perennially threatened soccer team and a fair amount of international matches in those codes to absolutely justify a 30,000 seat stadium.

It also doesn't have a concert venue or indoor arena, but it also doesn't get arena acts or host arena sports. so I wonder if you could just double that up with an indoor rectangular stadium.

But then it also has a severely outdated oval that has had some ugly as sin big black box chucked up on one end without any serious thought. I think Manuka is a beautiful little ground and needs to retain that suburban, low key feel, but it can also do that with a nice big grandstand on the telecast side and an update to the outer and ends.

For a big-ish city, it's operating the two worst permanent venues for each major competition.

Really?

They Raiders have rarely averaged over 15K in a season. The Brumbies got 8K to their final this year. There is no men's soccer team that plays there and I can see 2 or 3 international matches getting over 20K in the last decade

On the last point, in 2017 they had a Kangaroos v NZ test (18,535) and Wallabies v Argentina test (14,229)

 

[PaythePerryman]

They still drag down our crowds, too. Of those 15 games, there's been one sell out (when the Dogs were flying and the rivalry was hot). Every other game hasn't passed 10.1k.



I get we're never going to get Collingwood. But it sucks for Pies fans. There are a load here. I know more Pies fans than any others here.

But why not Essendon or Carlton? Carlton have never drawn more than 11.8k at Sydney Showgrounds. That would be pushing 15k at Manuka.

We had a poll of most supported teams in Canberra, and 42% of Canberran AFL fans supported teams that haven't played the Giants here (Collingwood, Carlton, Essendon, Sydney, West Coast).



They're still not the teams bringing in the crowds. The other two most played teams here are the Saints and Dees.

So 23 matches against the Suns, Dees, Saints, Dogs and Port (25 by the end of the year). One single match against the Richmond, Carlton, Collingwood or Richmond.

I know Canberra isn't in the Giants' long-term future, but it's a pretty lopsided partnership in the meantime.

Those big 4 teams have a lot of fans everywhere and sorry but I don't really care that much about Pies fans in Canberra and I doubt the Giants do either. They are trying to scoop up AFL fans and build a strong base of Giants fans in Canberra.
Giving everyone a look at their interstate team in Canberra probably isn't on the agenda.
I don't feel like it's lopsided at all personally. They are good games that I travel for every year + the preseason clashes (carlton). Maybe I'm off the mark but it feels pretty damn fair to me.
There's growth there already and a strong GWS crowd for the games scheduled.

Also....if the Pies fans want to see that game....it's 3 hours up the road in Round 0.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Those big 4 teams have a lot of fans everywhere and sorry but I don't really care that much about Pies fans in Canberra and I doubt the Giants do either. They are trying to scoop up AFL fans and build a strong base of Giants fans in Canberra.
Giving everyone a look at their interstate team in Canberra probably isn't on the agenda.
I don't feel like it's lopsided at all personally. They are good games that I travel for every year + the preseason clashes (carlton). Maybe I'm off the mark but it feels pretty damn fair to me.
There's growth there already and a strong GWS crowd for the games scheduled.

Also....if the Pies fans want to see that game....it's 3 hours up the road in Round 0.

How does one game against the big four, but 20-plus games against four smaller teams not seem lopsided to you?

I get it, it's about growing the brand in Sydney. Canberra is isn't a part of the long-term plan. But if we were, I'd be expecting better treatment.

 

[PaythePerryman]

How does one game against the big four, but 20-plus games against four smaller teams not seem lopsided to you?

I get it, it's about growing the brand in Sydney. Canberra is isn't a part of the long-term plan. But if we were, I'd be expecting better treatment.

I'm not sure that Canberra isn't in the long term plans to be honest. Unless the Easter show moves.
Collingwood has never played a game in Tassie either.
I'm not sure you'd want Giants Richmond this year anyway. I just think it's a secondary market and it's unrealistic to expect them to schedule those games there.
Also....no small games.

 

[PaythePerryman]

To be honest I don't really care who we play where...I'm going to go anyway. I just think it's completely understandable why thet fixture it this way....
I also don't really understand the obsession with the big 4 Vic clubs. Especially in Canberra where the strong Giants base fills most of the stadium

 

[Canberra Pear]

I'm not sure that Canberra isn't in the long term plans to be honest. Unless the Easter show moves.

You've been in the other threads, right?

Plenty of alternatives floating around for the Easter Show. If Canberra gets its own team, the Giants will have a plan b ready.

Collingwood has never played a game in Tassie either.
I'm not sure you'd want Giants Richmond this year anyway. I just think it's a secondary market and it's unrealistic to expect them to schedule those games there.
Also....no small games.

So we're just a secondary market? But also, our crowds are so strong that we don't need the big teams?

The difference is that the big four play North in Melbourne and get huge crowds.

But a Giants game against Carlton or Essendon would most likely get a bigger crowd at Manuka.

To be honest I don't really care who we play where...I'm going to go anyway. I just think it's completely understandable why thet fixture it this way....
I also don't really understand the obsession with the big 4 Vic clubs. Especially in Canberra where the strong Giants base fills most of the stadium

It's because actual Giants fans make up a minority of that crowd. Yes we're in orange, we're all members and get the merch with our packs, but the majority of these crowds primarily support another team first.

So huge chunks of fans never get to see their teams live in Canberra.