Win Prizes Ask an Atheist II

[Gethelred]

Welcome to the Ask an Atheist thread II.

Previous part:

Win Prizes - Ask an Atheist - Shoe's on the other foot now!

Alright, we're going to have a change of tack. As I'm sure you can see, the thread title has been changed to Ask an Atheist. People who have a question to ask of the atheists who populate this thread - more than the christians do - should feel free to ask questions of them. If you've still got...

www.bigfooty.com

Standard board rules apply.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Let me ask you, the thread is called ask an atheist after all, can science prove if someone is of mixed ancestry?

I would have thought genetics shows conclusively we are all of "mixed ancestry". So we need to clarify what you mean by the term, because otherwise I'm not sure why you would even be asking this question.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I'm not trying to convert anyone lol! I believe you can seek what you will. I sought the Truth and found it!

Good for you mate. One very rare Christian in that case, because proselytising is baked in as the very essence of what it means to be a Christian.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

I'm asking whether it does have a use.

I hardly even get approached by theists to enforce their worldview on me, and on the rare occasion I do it's easy to move them along. I don't know any theist who has had their mind changed and I've never observed anyone who identifies as an atheist engaging in dialogue because they genuinely care for the theist and want them to be free from the bondages of religion. It's usually some kind of high horse ridicule or at least underlying righteous disdain in disguise as logical debate.

I'd then question it's usefulness because it's seemingly not useful for the atheist or the theist. For the atheist, I think it has an allure of feeling good about oneself by rising above these other "idiots" who believe these "stupid things" but that is short lived, probably it's a hedonistic dopamine hit, but ultimately causes stress in the resistance of another person's worldview and a compulsion to try and change something unchangeable. For the theist there is just ridicule and mockery and that probably needs no further explanation about its usefulness to them.

But the crux of it is that "it" doesn't even exist which is what my original question was about. It's just a human concept. A dog is presumably an atheist using our human concept but it doesn't have the ability to label itself and identity as such. I'd therefore posit that it doesn't get all twisted up about theists and cause itself stress. It stresses about reality, the physical threats to its reproductive success, things that actually exist and things worthy of stress. If it did magically develop the ability to believe in concepts and define itself as an atheist, I'd suggest that wouldn't be a more peaceful life for the dog, but one of resistance as it goes about looking for a theist to lock horns with, try and make wrong, and create tension in its own life and that of the theists.

If I may weigh in here, I don't sell the strength of atheism for some sense of superiority, I consider it is the scientifically correct understanding of the world (to the extent that we know so far).

And I actually consider the elevation of belief over reason and fact to be a destructive force, which is to some extent responsible for the mess the world is in today. It's time we stopped believing in belief (is my belief LOL.)

 

[Total Power]

Theological knowledge, I have that

Rubbish, you cannot defend yourself that's why you say i am an antichrist.

Why would I do that do that lol!

Cause you are a fundamentalist, nothing you posted here shows otherwise.

If you're not with Christ, you're against Him, it's in the Scriptures. You said you left Christ, surely that can't mean you're with Him lol!?

In the scriptures it's written that women should submit fully to men. Homosexuals are evil, atheists are evil, slavery is ok, masturbation means you are a sinner etc...i assume you believe in all of these? remember what you just said? if you are not with Christ, you are against him.

Is to be against Him to be anti Him?

Yes i am anti him, cause i live in 2024, not in the stone ages.

LIke I wrote, the Scriptures don't consist in the reading, you've just proved that, thanks man lol!

Suspended already....lol jesus that last 2 seconds. Scriptures are written by men, years after the death of this so called Jesus and consists of zero eyewitness'. In other words it's called heresy. It's absurd and i have written extensively about the autheticity of such gospels from a scholarly point of view.

From a fundamentalist pov, you can believe as you wish to, it's your prerogative.

 

[carltonchelsea]

I’m an anti-christ, anti-moses, anti mohammadan, anti-joseph smith, anti-elron hubbard, and clearly an anti-username anthony.
Cheers mods!

 

[Cyclops]

I agree with everything you have posted however the resurrection was a made up story which evolved with time. I made a post about this, have a read here.

Also the translation from Greek changed over time. Have a read at my previous post here.

Yep, it's not logical, but there's sincere emotion.

Work it out lol!

"The Scriptures," says S. Jerome, "consist not in the reading but in the understanding:" that is, faith is not in the knowing the words but the sense.

That's also, why atheists go to university, and don't buy the text books to study them at home to avoid paying the school fees.

But even then, you were not of us (1 John 2:18-20), just now you're not hidden, you're out in the open.

Worked it out lol, "no one can understand the Bible except a self appointed group of people and they can use this doctrine as a get out if gaol card when their interpretation is plainly false".

St Jerone isn't God or Jesus. He can have opinions but his word isn't infallible.

The Bible is also not God or Jesus. It's a somewhat arbitrary collection of books written by lots if different peopke and have been heavily edited, by other people again.

I can alter any one of them, eg the Apocalypse of John. If I do the curses at the end don't happen.

So can you. Many many people have, it keeps happening.

 

[Total Power]

Worked it out lol, "no one can understand the Bible except a self appointed group of people and they can use this doctrine as a get out if gaol card when their interpretation is plainly false".

St Jerone isn't God or Jesus. He can have opinions but his word isn't infallible.

The Bible is also not God or Jesus. It's a somewhat arbitrary collection of books written by lots if different peopke and have been heavily edited, by other people again.

I can alter any one of them, eg the Apocalypse of John. If I do the curses at the end don't happen.

So can you. Many many people have, it keeps happening.

Hear hear.....!!!

 

[Cyclops]

Hear hear.....!!!

Thx, it's a bit hollow, the poor person got themselves banned.

I woke up in the middle of the night with crook guts and tapped out my clever reply, hit send and oops they're gone.

Its a shame, I think discussion is healthy and we can all learn from exchanges.

I learned quite a bit already, thx for the points about the changing interpretation of Jesus perceived return. History of religion is my jam.

If I may weigh in here, I don't sell the strength of atheism for some sense of superiority, I consider it is the scientifically correct understanding of the world (to the extent that we know so far).

And I actually consider the elevation of belief over reason and fact to be a destructive force, which is to some extent responsible for the mess the world is in today. It's time we stopped believing in belief (is my belief LOL.)

You make the point well. Belief is a very human trait, we create stories out of what we see.

Our reason is only as strong as our brains, and my brain is pretty weak. Beliefs leak on, people up to use reason to justify belief, it's a mess.

Reason and belief get the job done for us, help us stay alive and send that DNA into the future. It's good to have a bit if a grasp of how science works, and some sense of various religious and philosophical traditions.

Lots of good stuff in thd Bible, lots of people trying to describe the Divine. Plenty of it fails the reason test in one way or another, but it's still very human.

I'm just not going to order my life by curated portions dictated by a money church. I'll curate my own portions!

 

[ManInTheArena]

If I may weigh in here, I don't sell the strength of atheism for some sense of superiority, I consider it is the scientifically correct understanding of the world (to the extent that we know so far).

And I actually consider the elevation of belief over reason and fact to be a destructive force, which is to some extent responsible for the mess the world is in today. It's time we stopped believing in belief (is my belief LOL.)

As soon as you self identify, define, and categorise yourself, you limit yourself

If you say "I'm an atheist and I elevate fact and reason", then those are now your boundaries you are contained in. That's your box.

You're now stuck only considering the world within your own headset. The headset put on you by evolution, not realising on a moment to moment basis that none of what you experience is reality and therefore not fact. On top of that you're not even a speck in this whole arrangement and we don't even know what the arrangement is. There's 200 billion stars just in our galaxy and up to 2 trillion galaxies just in the observable universe. Where the hell are you, and by "you" what do you even mean? Your thoughts about yourself? What are thoughts? They probably only evolved so we could organise ourselves in a small-scale social society yet we cling to them like they're reality. Like our "reasoning" is important. Like we're important.

There's no meaning to you, no importance to you, and no meaning or importance to the theist, we are just "here" but can't even say where here is let alone cling to our "facts" made up with our "thoughts" to get some certainly of the "reality" we can only perceive through our little brains and five senses which evolved for us to pass on our genes, not so we could objectively and rationally understand reality. We don't experience s**t of reality. Daily we're walking around in an evolutionary made delusion thinking what we experience is reality.

All science can do is measure "that reality" and we're clever little f*ers for doing it and it's helped us pass on our genes (and is very useful), but it boxes us into our headset not what might be beyond it. I'm not talking about theism and gods made up with our thoughts either, that would be a regression, I'm talking about the fact that maybe we can't understand true reality with this limited brain. And it is severely limited. We're not much better than monkeys in the scheme of things yet we call ourselves intelligent and act intelligent like we're the centre of the universe when we're nothing, we're no "thing", because the "thing" we think we are is simply made up by our own brain and it's incessant evolutionary need to define everything, but at the same time without those limited brain made up definitions we are everything. We are the big bang, if the big bang can even be agreed as a "fact" or maybe someone will change it later. But whatever, we're made of the same s*t as everything else and our boundary is defined by ourselves and our sense of self which probably only evolved when we needed to move towards safety and away from danger. You can't avoid getting eaten by a predator if you don't know where "you" are. Worse still are the definitions within that "you", "I'm an atheist" being one of them but there are hundreds of others.

I could go on for a long time here but what I'm suggesting is that maybe defining yourself is limiting yourself if you look at what you're actually doing in the grand scheme of things with an understanding of what reality isn't (because we sure as hell don't know what it "is"). Bonus is that we wouldn't have a bunch of c*s walking around treating each other like s*t, and worst case starting wars, because they define themselves differently with their primitive little evolutionary constrained brains.

 

[Total Power]

Thx, it's a bit hollow, the poor person got themselves banned.

I woke up in the middle of the night with crook guts and tapped out my clever reply, hit send and oops they're gone.

Its a shame, I think discussion is healthy and we can all learn from exchanges.

I learned quite a bit already, thx for the points about the changing interpretation of Jesus perceived return. History of religion is my jam.

You cannot expect healthy exchanges here, most Christians here barely know about their Bible, let alone any other religion. literal interpretations of mythology in other words. Vdubs keeps telling me , no other religion has god coming down on earth and helping people out..lol

How can you argue with that **** anyway.

They think Jesus is the only way to God and other religions basically offer little or nothing. You actually have a sound knowledge of Eastern religions, the Rig Veda verse you quoted, i have posted here multiple times. No one cares here mate...remember they keep repeating 'Jesus is the only way to god'.

 

[liz]

As soon as you self identify, define, and categorise yourself, you limit yourself

If you say "I'm an atheist and I elevate fact and reason", then those are now your boundaries you are contained in. That's your box.

You're now stuck only considering the world within your own headset. The headset put on you by evolution, not realising on a moment to moment basis that none of what you experience is reality and therefore not fact. On top of that you're not even a speck in this whole arrangement and we don't even know what the arrangement is. There's 200 billion stars just in our galaxy and up to 2 trillion galaxies just in the observable universe. Where the hell are you, and by "you" what do you even mean? Your thoughts about yourself? What are thoughts? They probably only evolved so we could organise ourselves in a small-scale social society yet we cling to them like they're reality. Like our "reasoning" is important. Like we're important.

There's no meaning to you, no importance to you, and no meaning or importance to the theist, we are just "here" but can't even say where here is let alone cling to our "facts" made up with our "thoughts" to get some certainly of the "reality" we can only perceive through our little brains and five senses which evolved for us to pass on our genes, not so we could objectively and rationally understand reality. We don't experience s**t of reality. Daily we're walking around in an evolutionary made delusion thinking what we experience is reality.

All science can do is measure "that reality" and we're clever little f*ers for doing it and it's helped us pass on our genes (and is very useful), but it boxes us into our headset not what might be beyond it. I'm not talking about theism and gods made up with our thoughts either, that would be a regression, I'm talking about the fact that maybe we can't understand true reality with this limited brain. And it is severely limited. We're not much better than monkeys in the scheme of things yet we call ourselves intelligent and act intelligent like we're the centre of the universe when we're nothing, we're no "thing", because the "thing" we think we are is simply made up by our own brain and it's incessant evolutionary need to define everything, but at the same time without those limited brain made up definitions we are everything. We are the big bang, if the big bang can even be agreed as a "fact" or maybe someone will change it later. But whatever, we're made of the same s*t as everything else and our boundary is defined by ourselves and our sense of self which probably only evolved when we needed to move towards safety and away from danger. You can't avoid getting eaten by a predator if you don't know where "you" are. Worse still are the definitions within that "you", "I'm an atheist" being one of them but there are hundreds of others.

I could go on for a long time here but what I'm suggesting is that maybe defining yourself is limiting yourself if you look at what you're actually doing in the grand scheme of things with an understanding of what reality isn't (because we sure as hell don't know what it "is"). Bonus is that we wouldn't have a bunch of c*s walking around treating each other like s*t, and worst case starting wars, because they define themselves differently with their primitive little evolutionary constrained brains.

I don't really understand the point of that post, certainly not in the context of a thread about belief in a god.

Is it disputed that our understanding of the "real world" is very limited? We're just apes with a slightly larger brain than other apes, a brain that allows us to reason to a limited extent. A very limited extent.

I don't think that is disputed by many, is it? Other than maybe those who argue that man is some special creature created by a god and qualitatively different to every other living organism on this planet (or any other bit of rock in the universe).

 

[ManInTheArena]

I don't really understand the point of that post, certainly not in the context of a thread about belief in a god.

In the first instance I asked if there is any such thing as an atheist and it evolved into what I'm talking about in the context of this thread.

Is it disputed that our understanding of the "real world" is very limited? We're just apes with a slightly larger brain than other apes, a brain that allows us to reason to a limited extent. A very limited extent.

I don't think that is disputed by many, is it? Other than maybe those who argue that man is some special creature created by a god and qualitatively different to every other living organism on this planet (or any other bit of rock in the universe

It may not be disputed intellectually, but it is in the way we live and Interact with the world otherwise we wouldn't behave in such a knuckle dragging way, as if our self-defined illusionary identities are important, e.g. "I'm an atheist".

It's primitive and ultimately the cause of all inter-human conflict.

Be honest, are you often in conflict with theists because of how you identify yourself?

 

[Roylion]

In the first instance I asked if there is any such thing as an atheist

All atheism is ...is a rejection of the assertion that there are gods/deities/supernatural beings.

Be honest, are you often in conflict with theists because of how you identify yourself?

Only when 'theists' make unsubstantiated claims to know the 'truth'.

 

[liz]

In the first instance I asked if there is any such thing as an atheist and it evolved into what I'm talking about in the context of this thread.

It may not be disputed intellectually, but it is in the way we live and Interact with the world otherwise we wouldn't behave in such a knuckle dragging way, as if our self-defined illusionary identities are important, e.g. "I'm an atheist".

It's primitive and ultimately the cause of all inter-human conflict.

Be honest, are you often in conflict with theists because of how you identify yourself?

I don’t believe in god. By the definition of the word “atheist”, that means I am one. But it’s not a core part of my identity. I don’t go around all day thinking “I am an atheist” and picking fights with those who believe in god.

Occasional participation in this thread forms the majority of my direct engagement on the topic. It’s not something that comes up in my daily interaction with people.

My personal values are based around treating others fairly and with respect. By being friendly where appropriate and courteous otherwise. I treat others as I would like to be treated myself.

The only time my personal non-belief in god comes to the fore is when others try to impose their god-based moral code on society. Then I get irritated.

 

[Tony Serdar]

They think Jesus is the only way to God and other religions basically offer little or nothing.

That's what I believe, and last I checked, it's my human right to believe that.

No one cares here mate...remember they keep repeating 'Jesus is the only way to god'.

Because it's true, and because truth is one, error multiple, why would I care for errors.

 

[GrayRanga]

I don’t believe in god. By the definition of the word “atheist”, that means I am one. But it’s not a core part of my identity. I don’t go around all day thinking “I am an atheist” and picking fights with those who believe in god.

Occasional participation in this thread forms the majority of my direct engagement on the topic. It’s not something that comes up in my daily interaction with people.

My personal values are based around treating others fairly and with respect. By being friendly where appropriate and courteous otherwise. I treat others as I would like to be treated myself.

The only time my personal non-belief in god comes to the fore is when others try to impose their god-based moral code on society. Then I get irritated.

Exactly!

And my moral code is far stricter than those promoted by Christian Churches and the interactions with society and the community by their congregations

 

[liz]

Exactly!

And my moral code is far stricter than those promoted by Christian Churches and the interactions with society and the community by their congregations

I don't know if I'd describe mine as stricter, but I do think it's kinder and more internally consistent. It certainly forbids sexual abuse of minors, or enabling others to do so. And it doesn't involve hoarding material wealth and convincing myself that my good fortune is my reward from god for being "good".

 

[ManInTheArena]

All atheism is ...is a rejection of the assertion that there are gods/deities/supernatural beings.

Why not go a step further and reject the false identity? It's not reality.

Human reality and evolutionary mechanisms are not reality. It's not truth. Identifying as this and others as that is a primitive function of protecting against "other" tribes, so we bundle people in these categories and we identify with a category. They are this, I am that. But it's all bulls*t.

Only when 'theists' make unsubstantiated claims to know the 'truth'.

And yet you lurk here with your group. Your tribe. The other people with the same delusion that they are "something". "Hey I'm an Atheist, this is my tribe, ask us all a question!".

If you were truly scientific you'd see it's your primitive mind grouping you into this and theists into that, along with a bunch of other identities which do the same. I'm an Australian, they're Chinese. In reality there's no such thing. There's just bodies on this bit of dirt and everything else is made up. That is science. If you look hard enough you'll see your whole world and identity in is bulls*t.

 

[Roylion]

Why not go a step further and reject the false identity? It's not reality.

Why does it matter at all? Atheism is a rejection of the assertion that there are gods/deities/supernatural beings. If someone wants to apply a label to that either to themselves or others, so what.

And yet you lurk here with your group.

I have no group or 'tribe'. I just reject certain claims to truth made on here or anywhere else that are based on nothing more than faith. This is a discussion forum.

Your tribe. The other people with the same delusion that they are "something". "Hey I'm an Atheist, this is my tribe, ask us all a question!".

You need to talk to the mods about this particular issue. The original title of this thread started by someone who labelled themselves as a Christian was "Ask a Christian". It was changed by a mod to "Ask an Atheist". I didn't agree with the name change then and I don't agree with it now. 'Atheists' don't have a particular set of dogma or rituals regarding their stance other than they reject the assertion that there are gods/deities/supernatural beings.

I really don't care if others label me as an 'atheist' or not. It means nothing really. I see no supporting evidence for claims of truth of supernatural deities / entities.

If you were truly scientific you'd see it's your primitive mind grouping you into this and theists into that, along with a bunch of other identities which do the same.

People like to assign labels to these with similar characteristics whether it be cultural, linguistic, religious or whatever.

 

[ManInTheArena]

I don’t believe in god. By the definition of the word “atheist”, that means I am one. But it’s not a core part of my identity. I don’t go around all day thinking “I am an atheist” and picking fights with those who believe in god.

Occasional participation in this thread forms the majority of my direct engagement on the topic. It’s not something that comes up in my daily interaction with people.

My personal values are based around treating others fairly and with respect. By being friendly where appropriate and courteous otherwise. I treat others as I would like to be treated myself.

The only time my personal non-belief in god comes to the fore is when others try to impose their god-based moral code on society. Then I get irritated.

By human definition, which is a delusion.

People keep saying the only time they use their identity as an atheist is when others impose their god on them. Realistically when does that happen? It doesn't happen to me ever, and I'd posit that you seek it out so you can fulfill your identity which is why you're here. I think you're making your own irritation and that's tied up in your "atheist" identity. I don't believe in gods and don't get the slightest bit irritated with those who do.

 

[Chief]

when others impose their god on them.

In our legal system every day.

 

[Roylion]

I don't believe in gods and don't get the slightest bit irritated with those who do.

But so what.

This is a discussion forum and when claims to truth are put forward in a discussion forum, then the veracity of said claims are discussed. That includes the type, form and amount of supporting evidence for those claims.

If you don't want to participate in that discussion, then don't.

 

[liz]

By human definition, which is a delusion.

People keep saying the only time they use their identity as an atheist is when others impose their god on them. Realistically when does that happen? It doesn't happen to me ever, and I'd posit that you seek it out so you can fulfill your identity which is why you're here. I think you're making your own irritation and that's tied up in your "atheist" identity. I don't believe in gods and don't get the slightest bit irritated with those who do.

I actually said “impose their morality on society”, not on me.

It happens when people try to block same-sex marriage because it’s not contemplated by the bible. Interfere with sexual or gender identity of others. Argue that a patriarchal society is “more natural”. Claim tax deductible status for their infrastructure. Campaign against the right to die when one chooses, based on a religious view that only god has that right. Infiltrate our school system to the extent they have, and demand the right to employ only teachers that share their religious values. Even the state schools in NSW require parents to opt-out of scripture classes, rather than opt-in. I gather the arrangement is different in other states.

 

[ManInTheArena]

But so what.

This is a discussion forum and when claims to truth are put forward in a discussion forum, then the veracity of said claims are discussed. That includes the type, form and amount of supporting evidence for those claims.

If you don't want to participate in that discussion, then don't.

I don't.

I originally asked a question "to an atheist" asking if there was any such thing as an atheist out of interest.

Just admit you get enjoyment of the atheist identity and it's why you're really here.

 

[ManInTheArena]

I actually said “impose their morality on society”, not on me.

It happens when people try to block same-sex marriage because it’s not contemplated by the bible. Interfere with sexual or gender identity of others. Argue that a patriarchal society is “more natural”. Claim tax deductible status for their infrastructure. Campaign against the right to die when one chooses, based on a religious view that only god has that right. Infiltrate our school system to the extent they have, and demand the right to employ only teachers that share their religious values. Even the state schools in NSW require parents to opt-out of scripture classes, rather than opt-in. I gather the arrangement is different in other states.

You think they're imposing their ideology more than anyone else?

Do you think proposed legislation like banning "misinformation" which the Government just tried to do comes from an ideology?

Ideologies abound and in a democracy the majority rules. If it was a Christian majority then that's the rules we'd have and if you didn't like it you'd have to leave. That's evolution. The tribe makes up what is right and wrong.

No laws or rules come from anything objective because by its nature they are concepts we all agree on but have no basis in reality. What's right is what we say is right.

I'd assert that you only have an interest in these particular legal matters because of your identity as an atheist.