MRP / Trib. Archer and Cleary incident, Rd 1, 2025

[ferball]

Im old and even I can still change direction in 15m. If he wanted to avoid the contact he could. If he wanted to stop he could. Ever heard of a"jump"? Thats when a human leaves the ground. in this case to avoid contact with a bloke whos head is at knee level.

 

[Makeshift Park]

 

[ferball]

 

[Kappa]

Once you're second to the ball you have a duty of care to your opponent. Archer clearly failed that metric

Does Cleary have a duty of the care not to drop his knees and slide into his opponents legs? If he was 20 cm lower and hit his fibula instead of knee he could've snapped Archer's leg in half, would we be having the same conversation if that happened?

 

[Roosurgence]

Watch it again sunshine. Cleary only had eyes for the ball. Couldnt even see Archer. He was attacking the ball. Archer only had eyes on Cleary and should have avoided the contact, or attempted to. Sheezel read the play and held back. Konstanty also impacted Clearys positioning and forced him lower than he would have been without that contact.

Archer will learn

Watch it again, he went down quicker than a $2 hooker when he should have attempted to keep his feet.

Cleary will learn the best was to attack the ball is not to go to ground and dive headfirst, otherwise it won’t be the first or last time he is in this exact situation.

 

[Roosurgence]

Konstanty

He goes to ground before any contact is made, so you can’t pin Konstanty as the cause of him going into the contest like that.

 

[MaxiBont]

Does Cleary have a duty of the care not to drop his knees and slide into his opponents legs? If he was 20 cm lower and hit his fibula instead of knee he could've snapped Archer's leg in half, would we be having the same conversation if that happened?

He was already sliding before Archer got there though. It’s not like he saw Archer and dived head first into his legs. Cleary also didn’t dive to get the ball causing him to take out Archer’s leg.

At the end of the day, it was an accident and no one should be suspended. But to me (maybe bias) it’s obvious that Cleary got hit high more than Archer got his legs taken out in this situation.

 

[TruRoo]

He goes to ground before any contact is made, so you can’t pin Konstanty as the cause of him going into the contest like that.

He goes to ground under perceived pressure and because he's trying to gather the ball at speed. It appears you are trying to make it seem like he's done a LT and slid at Archer's legs.

Cleary was clumsy in his effort to gain possession, Archer was hamstrung with no ability to approach the contest different. Footy accident, play on.

 

[ferball]

The following tweet appears to show that everything used as a basis for Archer's susp[ension doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

[ferball]

 

[zoomba23]

Watch it again sunshine. Cleary only had eyes for the ball. Couldnt even see Archer. He was attacking the ball. Archer only had eyes on Cleary and should have avoided the contact, or attempted to. Sheezel read the play and held back. Konstanty also impacted Clearys positioning and forced him lower than he would have been without that contact.

Archer will learn

How the **** is he supposed to avoid the contact in a game moving at a million miles an hour? It's a regulation loose ball and Cleary decided to slide in on his knee before Konstanty even had a hand on him. Archer's not expecting that, and once that did happen, he even tried to slow up.

Outcome-based bullshit. No malice in it. They're asking Archer to show both superhuman reflexes and superhuman agility to avoid an accident that the victim contributed to. If anything, Cleary needs to learn not to slide in to contests like that. ****ing dangerous.

 

[skipper kelly]

I forgot how funny these threads are.

 

[Roosurgence]

He goes to ground under perceived pressure and because he's trying to gather the ball at speed. It appears you are trying to make it seem like he's done a LT and slid at Archer's legs.

Cleary was clumsy in his effort to gain possession, Archer was hamstrung with no ability to approach the contest different. Footy accident, play on.

I have never made out that Cleary was intending to harm Archer, but it’s clear as day he made no attempt to stay on his feet. You don’t drop to your knees to gather a ball unless you intentionally try to do so. If he had overbalanced he probably misses the ball completely or overshoots it.

Only Cleary knows his intent, but that is not the technique you attempt to gather a ball at speed.

 

[shintemaster]

I have never made out that Cleary was intending to harm Archer, but it’s clear as day he made no attempt to stay on his feet. You don’t drop to your knees to gather a ball unless you intentionally try to do so. If he had overbalanced he probably misses the ball completely or overshoots it.

Only Cleary knows his intent, but that is not the technique you attempt to gather a ball at speed.

I doubt he was even more than vaguely aware of Archer. He was trying to win a free kick from his opponent IMO by drawing contact / holding from behind. That doesn’t make it Archer’s fault and it doesn’t mean Cleary hasn’t contributed to his own injury.

 

[Sentinel]

Upheld

 

[Bulldogs85]

 

[DamoESP]

Upheld

What a joke, game is cooked

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Utter garbage.
Did nothing wrong.

 

[PiCkLeJuiCe]

Hawks should abort. Scrimshaw might end up with a 5 match ban,

 

[Boxhead_31]

He was already sliding before Archer got there though. It’s not like he saw Archer and dived head first into his legs. Cleary also didn’t dive to get the ball causing him to take out Archer’s leg.

At the end of the day, it was an accident and no one should be suspended. But to me (maybe bias) it’s obvious that Cleary got hit high more than Archer got his legs taken out in this situation.

But hasn't the Tribunal told players not to go to ground to collect the ball, they should maintain their feet

 

[Sentinel]

Stop watching slow no replays. Watch it at full speed and there was not much time between Cleary taking control of the ball and the collision.

People keep watching media outlet slow mo’s and think these players operate in the matrix.

It’s 100% a contest. You have the right to come into the contest to tackle. Most players would have assumed Cleary keeps his feet and they are in position to tackle, so yes the poor technique is a major factor on why the incident even occurred.

He keeps his feet and we aren’t even talking about it.

So as I stated and as per the tribunal's reasoning, they didn't view it as a contest. Cleary already having the ball well before Archer arrived was the reason why these calls of it being a 'contact below the knees' free were always flawed. And name me a recent occurrence where a player has given away a free kick, concussed a player in the process, and not been suspended.

Spoiler: Tribunal Reasoning

**We find that this was rough conduct against Cleary, which, in the circumstances, was unreasonable.

We carefully considered the evidence.

We consider that the relevant circumstances are:

A) This was not a contested ball situation… Cleary was always closer to the loose ball and was always going to reach the loose ball before Archer. Archer gave evidence that he intended to tackle Cleary if Cleary took possession of the ball.

B) It was reasonably foreseeable that Cleary may, at least to some extent, go to ground and not cleanly gather the ball and then straighten up in a manner that would have permitted Archer to tackle him without the unreasonable risk of injury.

We acknowledge that the rules encourage players to keep their feet to the extent possible in contest situations, and we acknowledge that players are coached to try to keep their feet, but this does not always happen.

Players should be taken to be aware that it does not always happen.

Players frequently go to ground, either because they intend to, because they stumble, or because they're pushed.

We’re unable to determine here whether Cleary made an entirely voluntary election to put his knee on the ground, or whether he did so at least in part because of his momentum, movement of the ball and the pressure of the moment.

In our view the important matter is that it was reasonably foreseeable that he would do so. Cleary did not dive and did not collapse to the ground. He went to one knee and then both knees when bending over at speed in a contest situation.

Ultimately, his body moved in a way that went beyond or lower than him being on both knees, but this was a product of his speed, his momentum, the way he approached the ball.

Again, we say this was reasonably foreseeable.

While there was contact below Archer’s knees, this was not a situation where the ball was in contest and where Archer could reasonably have expected that Cleary would necessarily gather the ball cleanly and straighten up so that no such low contact would be made.

The severity of the injury that could potentially occur is also a relevant circumstance. A high speed collision from front-on of a player whose head is over the ball has the potential not only to cause injury but to cause severe injury.

This informs the nature and extent of the duty of care of a player in Archer’s position.

In those circumstances, Archer approached the contest at excessive speed, giving himself no reasonable opportunity to avoid harmful contact with Cleary in the circumstances that foreseeably arose.

Graphs indicate that he did decrease his speed by about 25% prior to impact. But given that he was running about as fast as he could, given that he was approaching Cleary from front on, and that Cleary had his head over the ball, and given that he could not reasonably predict what position clear he would be in at the moment of impact, he slowed too little and too late.

His duty of care required him to slow more appreciably and earlier in order to give himself the opportunity to avoid or minimise head high contact.

We find that Archer's conduct was unreasonable in the circumstances.**

 

[powerrrrrrrrrrrr]

Just absolute insanity. Line in the sand moment at the tribunal that regardless of the action and even if it didn’t break any rules, you’re responsible due to merely existing.

Can’t wait for a player to get 3 weeks for taking a speccy with a knee to the head. Based on this, has to happen now.

What a pathetic outcome for the game.

 

[TheKanga]

So players are supposed to completely pull out of contests while the games on the line? Got it

Let's see some consistency for once.

 

[Roosurgence]

So as I stated and as per the tribunal's reasoning, they didn't view it as a contest. Cleary already having the ball well before Archer arrived was the reason why these calls of it being a 'contact below the knees' free were always flawed.

Spoiler: Tribunal Reasoning

**We find that this was rough conduct against Cleary, which, in the circumstances, was unreasonable.

We carefully considered the evidence.

We consider that the relevant circumstances are:

A) This was not a contested ball situation… Cleary was always closer to the loose ball and was always going to reach the loose ball before Archer. Archer gave evidence that he intended to tackle Cleary if Cleary took possession of the ball.

B) It was reasonably foreseeable that Cleary may, at least to some extent, go to ground and not cleanly gather the ball and then straighten up in a manner that would have permitted Archer to tackle him without the unreasonable risk of injury.

We acknowledge that the rules encourage players to keep their feet to the extent possible in contest situations, and we acknowledge that players are coached to try to keep their feet, but this does not always happen.

Players should be taken to be aware that it does not always happen.

Players frequently go to ground, either because they intend to, because they stumble, or because they're pushed.

We’re unable to determine here whether Cleary made an entirely voluntary election to put his knee on the ground, or whether he did so at least in part because of his momentum, movement of the ball and the pressure of the moment.

In our view the important matter is that it was reasonably foreseeable that he would do so. Cleary did not dive and did not collapse to the ground. He went to one knee and then both knees when bending over at speed in a contest situation.

Ultimately, his body moved in a way that went beyond or lower than him being on both knees, but this was a product of his speed, his momentum, the way he approached the ball.

Again, we say this was reasonably foreseeable.

While there was contact below Archer’s knees, this was not a situation where the ball was in contest and where Archer could reasonably have expected that Cleary would necessarily gather the ball cleanly and straighten up so that no such low contact would be made.

The severity of the injury that could potentially occur is also a relevant circumstance. A high speed collision from front-on of a player whose head is over the ball has the potential not only to cause injury but to cause severe injury.

This informs the nature and extent of the duty of care of a player in Archer’s position.

In those circumstances, Archer approached the contest at excessive speed, giving himself no reasonable opportunity to avoid harmful contact with Cleary in the circumstances that foreseeably arose.

Graphs indicate that he did decrease his speed by about 25% prior to impact. But given that he was running about as fast as he could, given that he was approaching Cleary from front on, and that Cleary had his head over the ball, and given that he could not reasonably predict what position clear he would be in at the moment of impact, he slowed too little and too late.

His duty of care required him to slow more appreciably and earlier in order to give himself the opportunity to avoid or minimise head high contact.

We find that Archer's conduct was unreasonable in the circumstances.**

If that’s not a contest then there has never been a contest in this sport.

Anyone that believes the dribble in that statement also probably has a unicorn poster on their wall.

So effectively let’s ban the tackle, because as soon as a player takes possession by that very definition you can’t contest.

We are now closer to touch footy than ever going by the AFL’ s logic.

But let’s see it for what it was, a decision made before he walked in the door validated by a statement that is pure garbage that makes no sense.

 

[TheKanga]

Hawks should abort. Scrimshaw might end up with a 5 match ban,

Guarantee everyone else will get off
Archer is made an example of