A thread on politics- have some balls and post

[Hollow Knight]

Unsurprisingly anti Semites screaming blue murder that anyone would think they're anti semitic is a feature here.

The coupe de grace was whoever said Jews were placed where they were post war because no one else wanted them. After what they'd been through.

Even with the small numbers who managed to get elsewhere they dominated business ,the entertainment and movie business , wrote the American songbook, the classical arts , all from nothing basically.

Anti semiticism is still writ large in Western civilisation in my experience and some of the rest just want to kill them.

Ahh the "it's complex" guy is back again with a stunning lack of complexity.

Let me have a try... "Hey Martinson, just admit you are Islamophobic and want Muslim children to die by the thousands!".

 

[martinson]

Ahh the "it's complex" guy is back again with a stunning lack of complexity.

Let me have a try... "Hey Martinson, just admit you are Islamophobic and want Muslim children to die by the thousands!".

I don't get the correlation.

Of course what I said wasn't complex.

It's self evident.

You've gone a bit over the top there.

 

[Hollow Knight]

I don't get the correlation.

That much is evident.

Here endeth the lesson.

 

[martinson]

That much is evident.

Here endeth the lesson.

For me too.

You're perfectly entitled to your view .

But no one's been given any lesson. Nor should they think they've given one.

 

[Hollow Knight]

For me too.

You're perfectly entitled to your view .

But no one's been given any lesson. Nor should they think they've given one.

Some people have talked about the issues in terms of the context and needs/rights of both groups.

Others have taken an utterly one-sided perspective while ironically and condescendingly implying that have a unique appreciation for the "complexities" involved. Then when pressed on said complexities, instead of engaging, those people immediately fell back into unserious and unsupported ad-hominem rhetoric such as accusing people of being "anti-Semitic". Not all views are created equal.

Israel ≠ Judaism
Judaism ≠ Israel

 

[martinson]

Some people have talked about the issues in terms of the context and needs/rights of both groups.

Others have taken an utterly one-sided perspective while ironically and condescendingly implying that have a unique appreciation for the "complexities" involved. Not all views are created equal.

Well here's the thing . I believe you've taken a one sided perspective.

With due respect to the propositions you put up, noble and all as they were , there's no hope of the Arabs on the other side of this conflict agreeing to any of that , it's been tried for decades. And they're crucial in the Middle Eastern conflict.

Everyone wants to see this end. I want to see this end for the sake of both sides and the unending suffering. I'm sorry if you think I condescendingly implied anything . I didn't intend to be condescending to anyone. But it's not an unusual perspective. It's one that's been taken by the left side of politics in the US for the last several years.

 

[M Malice]

There will be no more arguments to have when the evil Orange man takes charge on Jan 20th and ends all wars that we in the west care about within 24 hours.

 

[martinson]

There will be no more arguments to have when the evil Orange man takes charge on Jan 20th and ends all wars that we in the west care about within 24 hours.

Well Ukraine will end one way or the other in the foreseeable future I believe.

If Donald solves the Middle Eastern issue the burning question is will they give him the Nobel Prize.

I think he's got more hope of the former than the latter.

i.e . very little and none.

We've already had Nobel's handed out for outcomes that actually worsened situations over time. It all depends on perspective doesn't it.

 

[Mr Ripper]

Unsurprisingly anti Semites screaming blue murder that anyone would think they're anti semitic is a feature here.

The coupe de grace was whoever said Jews were placed where they were post war because no one else wanted them. After what they'd been through.

Even with the small numbers who managed to get elsewhere they dominated business ,the entertainment and movie business , wrote the American songbook, the classical arts , all from nothing basically.

Anti semiticism is still writ large in Western civilisation in my experience and some of the rest just want to kill them.

wtf

 

[dlanod]

If Donald solves the Middle Eastern issue the burning question is will they give him the Nobel Prize.

I think he's got more hope of the former than the latter

He could turn it all to glass and call it peace...

But fairs fair, tongue in cheek aside he's pretty consistently isolationist so the more likely situation is outright war by whichever party sees a winning and achievable posture.

 

[Elixuh]

Well here's the thing . I believe you've taken a one sided perspective.

With due respect to the propositions you put up, noble and all as they were , there's no hope of the Arabs on the other side of this conflict agreeing to any of that , it's been tried for decades. And they're crucial in the Middle Eastern conflict.

Everyone wants to see this end. I want to see this end for the sake of both sides and the unending suffering. I'm sorry if you think I condescendingly implied anything . I didn't intend to be condescending to anyone. But it's not an unusual perspective. It's one that's been taken by the left side of politics in the US for the last several years.

When you say ending the unending suffering I assume you mean you’re supportive of the Palestinians being wiped away by Israel. The left side of politics, ie the current US government, which you refer to, has facilitated this and done nothing to stop it. From reading and listening to various commentators, behind the scenes the US is obviously furious at Israel but they’ve formed such a weird relationship with Israel that it’s really problematic for them.

 

[martinson]

He could turn it all to glass and call it peace...

But fairs fair, tongue in cheek aside he's pretty consistently isolationist so the more likely situation is outright war by whichever party sees a winning and achievable posture.

Donald's isolationist and not a warmonger unlike his predecessors who were the opposite.

What this means for the Middle East who knows and the unknown is that he could turn on a dime re his approach.

 

[martinson]

When you say ending the unending suffering I assume you mean you’re supportive of the Palestinians being wiped away by Israel. The left side of politics, ie the current US government, which you refer to, has facilitated this and done nothing to stop it. From reading and listening to various commentators, behind the scenes the US is obviously furious at Israel but they’ve formed such a weird relationship with Israel that it’s really problematic for them.

I don't know why you'd assume that. I've never said that at all. And if I inferred it well of course that wasn't what I intended.

If the Dems had've gotten back in the pressure would've been intense for a more pro active role in facilitating a negotiated peace of some sort.

Who knows what Trump will do but he could probably see some glory points in it for himself if he's able to lessen the violence.

 

[Elixuh]

I don't know why you'd assume that. I've never said that at all. And if I inferred it well of course that wasn't what I intended.

If the Dems had've gotten back in the pressure would've been intense for a more pro active role in facilitating a negotiated peace of some sort.

Who knows what Trump will do but he could probably see some glory points in it for himself if he's able to lessen the violence.

Imo had they gotten back in there would have been no change. Their relationship with Israel is very complicated.

 

[martinson]

Imo had they gotten back in there would have been no change. Their relationship with Israel is very complicated.

It is.

Israel is a democratic State surrounded by basically autocratic despots with opposing ideologies to the US in a strategic and political hotspot of the world. Plus the strong Jewish influence in important democrat. areas like NYC and LA.

If the US withdrew support for Israel and Israel faltered many in US politics on both sides would see that as a massive ideological failure and a significant disruption to the balance of power

These are just political realities that have become problematic in the light of what has unfolded and I think the pressure is on to find some sort of interim solution.

I don't think there'll be any change policy wise either ,but there will be intensified attempts to bring this current phase to an end

 

[Elixuh]

It is.

Israel is a democratic State surrounded by basically autocratic despots with opposing ideologies to the US in a strategic and political hotspot of the world. Plus the strong Jewish influence in important democrat. areas like NYC and LA.

If the US withdrew support for Israel and Israel faltered many in US politics on both sides would see that as a massive ideological failure and a significant disruption to the balance of power

These are just political realities that have become problematic in the light of what has unfolded and I think the pressure is on to find some sort of interim solution.

I don't think there'll be any change policy wise either ,but there will be intensified attempts to bring this current phase to an end

It’ll be either much the same under Trump or he will give the Israelis everything they want overnight and it’ll be goodnight to the Palestinians. I mean a big reason why the Oct 7 attacks happened…Israel had been taking back land, destroying houses, burning crops, taking Palestinian people hostage in cages without charge and claiming rivers to cut off water supply every day for years and years and years and were also about to reach an agreement with the Saudis which would have been a big acceleration of the beginning of the end.

 

[western royboy]

If people are pinning their hopes on Trump…

 

[McIvor]

If people are pinning their hopes on Trump…

But it would have been ok no doubt pin hopes on Harris?

 

[western royboy]

But it would have been ok no doubt pin hopes on Harris?

Don’t think she was making big statements about…could be wrong

 

[martinson]

But it would have been ok no doubt pin hopes on Harris?

Trump's the unknown on foreign policy. Biden had a justified reputation as a hawk warmonger . Harris would've been lucky to get a seat at the table had she got in on security/foreign policy matters like this. In fact US Pres' usually take advice and it's a team thing when it comes to international affairs.

As far as Palestinians go it's hard to see Trump being worse than Biden but his instinct in his last Presidency was not to be as involved in International disputes but when he had to be like re NK he seemed to handle that exceptionally well.

The make up of advice he'll be getting is ,like Biden , overwhelmingly hawkish so I doubt a lot will change unless Trump decides something off his own bat.

 

[M Malice]

Trump's the unknown on foreign policy. Biden had a justified reputation as a hawk warmonger . Harris would've been lucky to get a seat at the table had she got in on security/foreign policy matters like this. In fact US Pres' usually take advice and it's a team thing when it comes to international affairs.

As far as Palestinians go it's hard to see Trump being worse than Biden but his instinct in his last Presidency was not to be as involved in International disputes but when he had to be like re NK he seemed to handle that exceptionally well.

The make up of advice he'll be getting is ,like Biden , overwhelmingly hawkish so I doubt a lot will change unless Trump decides something off his own bat.

It will be a hell of an effort from Trump and his team if they can override the embedded Military Industrial Complex resulting in the United States taking a less interventionist/world police/moral arbiter/spreading "democracy" role... and steady up on both covert and overt regime change all over the Planet.

 

[rye]

Yeah the guy who recognised Jerusalem as the capital and moved the embassy there and has a 4 year track record of kissing Israel's ass is a real unknown on foreign policy. JFC

On SM-A536E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[martinson]

The one interesting facet with Trump is that he got rid of a lot of the neocon military advisors/ex generals in his prior admin as soon as he worked them out. In hindsight not a good move because they're powerful people and got even with him as far as they could.

I see he's making noises again about clearing the decks there. Don't know why you'd telegraph your punches against these sort of people but I guess they were expecting it anyway.

 

[Hollow Knight]

sic semper bellum scelestos

 

[M Malice]

Agree this paragraph is damning, if true. Not sure it validates his conclusion. Last para is cut but I isn’t the whole article debating and criticising “wokism” (whatever that may be). Author suggesting you can’t do this?

Anyway please reply in the relevant Den thread.

I have posted similar before on woke culture in this thread, this is as concise as I can be.
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I do think there is such a thing as extreme "woke" ideology, particularly in the USA which is where the broader Western culture eventually trickles down from.

My examples of too woke would be support for >

Puberty blockers and transition surgery for children - Tavistock clinic scandal in the UK.

Biological men in women's sport, locker rooms, change rooms - Lia Thomas was a prime example of this at a National level in the US, Riley Gains stated that Lia was strutting around the women's dressing room with fully intact male genitalia.

Collective racial guilt for sins of the past - Judge on actions and character not skin colour.

DEI is great in theory but does not work when standards are lowered and/or quotas enforced, equality of opportunity is what should be strived for and all appointments based purely on merit - Asian students being excluded even though they would be admitted if merit based. https://www.google.com/search?q=asi...I4MjA1ajBqOagCALACAQ&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
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Admittedly the percentage of extreme woke would be a very small albeit very noisy minority, some in positions of influence eg. Colleges/Schools/Media. I see it in many cases being virtue signalling and condescending via being perpetually offended on behalf of another "group".

You have the same extreme minority on the right so it cuts both ways.