AFL Player #5: Elijah Tsatas

[Nuggs Bunny]

 

[bomberlegend2007]

I am writing him off based on watching him from under 16 level to now including pre seasons. Maybe 25-30 odd games and two years of match sim most Saturdays in pre season. The main thing for me before the draft was his total lack of effort defensively. His very poor efforts to make a tackle and for an inside clearance winner his lack of interest for the physical contest other than just finding the ball.
He has improved his kicking to the point where it is passable but not great.
So one game into the season I am still seeing many of the same issues i was seeing before he was drafted. It does not seem in his nature to go when he has to. Plays the game on his terms.
Yes he will get to the stage where he can find it 30 times but will he be the line breaking midfielder we want ? we do not really need a clearance guy who had quick hands but limited physicality. We already have that. Darcy Parish. The only thing Tsatas does better than Parish is take an overhead mark.
Yes he is 21. Yes he has had some injury interruptions that have hurt his development but there are some stuff that is just mindset that he just does not do and has not done at under 18 level , VFL level or AFL level.
Hope I am wrong but I have seen a decent body of his work over 3 levels now plus match sim.

I agree he is in the similar category as Parish, but as we are finding out, Parish is breaking down more than an old Holden Barina and is 27.

I’m not giving up on the kid. He has the frame to be built like a brick shithouse as soon as he hits his mid 20’s and once he has all of his game build, could use his speed as a weapon to move out of stoppages.

Players like him need time. Watson took years and years before becoming an A+ midfielder and I firmly believe that if Jobe wasn’t a Watson, he would have been gone long before his peak.

Firmly believe he has the tools to be an A grade AFL player, not willing to write him off yet.

 

[Nicholas61]

In what sense?

He will get enough of the ball to satisfy a Supercoach score but is criticised for not being able to use it at a high enough standard and/or has a questionable 2-way contribution and a lack of genuine physical intensity inside? I don't think I see this last point as being an issue, by the way.

20 years of midfields featuring Stanton, Heppell, Parish and, I have to include him (despite being the one genuine game breaking mid we've had) Watson (because his kicking was not great for a significant part of his career) as its primary players. The idea that value for midfield possession is an important thing may well be novel for the broader AFL community and the Essendon football department but it shouldn't be for Essendon fans who have lived at least 2 generations of trying to explain away the obvious in favour of the stat sheet.

The big risk is that it happens again with Tsatas and Hobbs. Guys with these deficiencies would not be playing if they were not top picks and yet indications are that they will be given enough of an opportunity to become the 3rd generation of Essendon midfielders who go nowhere. The would hardly be discussed if it wasn't for their draft profile which should tell you everything.

The issue here is that neither has shown even a glimpse of the sort of player who is genuinely capable of leading a top midfield. Gun players almost always show these glimpses early, it's not a matter of age and maturity creating something that was not there. Age and maturity create the capacity for consistency.

A midfielder getting 30 possessions is his role and should be seen as nothing more than a forward kicking a few Joe the Goose goals or an old fashioned defender limiting his opponent to a few goals.

You can throw Shiel in too - been a massive butcher for us and we gave up 2 firsts for him. So over a seven year period we used 5 first rounders (and some at the pontier end) on mids who can't kick. If you include McGrath (no composure that leads to dump kicks) that becomes an extra one.

 

[mike ross]

how does one become a high draft pick while being a terrible kick

A timeless question.

 

[Chief Hopper]

I'd give Tsatas more time.
He's a mid who will gain in size and take marks which is a point of difference to what we currently have.

Compared to our other mids like Caldwell who is playing great. But Caldwell has taken over Parish 2021 numbers and role, who we also have Hobbs gunning for and Shiel we tried.

 

[yodellinhank]

You can throw Shiel in too - been a massive butcher for us and we gave up 2 firsts for him.

That's rubbish. Cost us lemons and Caldwell came back as part of the deal.

 

[DERO]

Disposal is a big issue but not just for hm. We can’t carry all the butchers. Too many of them just can’t kick the footy reliably.

 

[joey_jo_jo]

That's rubbish. Cost us lemons and Caldwell came back as part of the deal.

your boy!!

 

[Nicholas61]

That's rubbish. Cost us lemons and Caldwell came back as part of the deal.

Two first rounders are lemons?? The point is we routinely used top picks on mids who can't kick.

 

[Runk]

Love me a bloke who can find the pill and then boot it 40m up in the air gaining 10 maybe 15m overall. Get me more of them*



*Do not get me more of them

 

[Bipolar Bear]

I remember the Dangerfield comparisons, didn't realise those were purely in kicking talent.

 

[BrunoV]

Two first rounders are lemons?? The point is we routinely used top picks on mids who can't kick.

It was 2 seconds but the general point stands.

It's another prime midfield player who is poor to average by foot.

I didn't include him because he has other strengths which make him a bit un-Essendon but I'll adopt it.

Edit: shit, sorry. I was thinking about Caldwell because I was thrown off by hank's sarcasm. You're right Shiel cost 2 x first round picks (and we got one of the Caldwell seconds in return).

 

[ghostdog]

In what sense?

He will get enough of the ball to satisfy a Supercoach score but is criticised for not being able to use it at a high enough standard and/or has a questionable 2-way contribution and a lack of genuine physical intensity inside? I don't think I see this last point as being an issue, by the way.

20 years of midfields featuring Stanton, Heppell, Parish and, I have to include him (despite being the one genuine game breaking mid we've had) Watson (because his kicking was not great for a significant part of his career) as its primary players. The idea that value for midfield possession is an important thing may well be novel for the broader AFL community and the Essendon football department but it shouldn't be for Essendon fans who have lived at least 2 generations of trying to explain away the obvious in favour of the stat sheet.

The big risk is that it happens again with Tsatas and Hobbs. Guys with these deficiencies would not be playing if they were not top picks and yet indications are that they will be given enough of an opportunity to become the 3rd generation of Essendon midfielders who go nowhere. The would hardly be discussed if it wasn't for their draft profile which should tell you everything.

The issue here is that neither has shown even a glimpse of the sort of player who is genuinely capable of leading a top midfield. Gun players almost always show these glimpses early, it's not a matter of age and maturity creating something that was not there. Age and maturity create the capacity for consistency.

A midfielder getting 30 possessions is his role and should be seen as nothing more than a forward kicking a few Joe the Goose goals or an old fashioned defender limiting his opponent to a few goals.

In the sense that many supporters won't give him the wriggle-room to demonstrate that he can be better than he was the other night.
When he has the inevitable bad game, they'll go off their collective nuts without having the common sense to accept that we have him at least until the next trade-draft period.
His faults will be spied and magnified, and as a result of the echo chamber that is big footy, the team's short-comings will be laid at his feet.
Already his potential to play consistently high level footy is being whittled away by judgment upon judgment; his kicking actually hasn't improved. To this has been added that he doesn't like contact and he's a one-position player. I'm not saying these are not truths, just if he plays poorly again, watch these judgments get amplified.

I was bemused by our selection of Tsatas. I was into Phillipou or Humphrey. But I also believe Tsatas has had a long road to get here and it's a bit unfair to trash talk the kid so quickly. If I recall, his knee(s) was/were injured in his draft year. That took time to get right. Of course he then had issues with his kicking so was held back by Scott, much to the chagrin of supporters. He has reportedly worked his arse off to fix the kicking problem, but because we lost on the weekend and our supporters are so impatient, the rolling collective judgment has already started. He's unlucky. With every loss, fans will bark that in large part, this is because Tsatas blah blah blah.

He'll be a whipping boy because many have already made their minds up. And that's fine. It is the way.

As far as I can see, we've got him for this year at least. The whinging on rinse repeat doesn't always work for me, but I understand it. That's why he'll be a whipping boy.

Of course, I could be wrong and he could magically turn it on and be the high range draft pick / player you envision he should be.

 

[IHurley]

He was poor on Friday but Caldwell is looking like a bona fide star and was very lacklustre in his first few seasons.

It is entirely plausible that his kicking remains woeful when in a fast pace game in which case he won't have much, if any, of a career. It's also plausible that it improves until it's adequate under pressure and he starts to get the confidence in his strength and speed just like he has confidence in his hands.

He certainly doesn't want too many more games where he looks timid again but at the same time he has elite traits which our team woefully lacks.

 

[BrunoV]

He was poor on Friday but Caldwell is looking like a bona fide star and was very lacklustre in his first few seasons.

It is entirely plausible that his kicking remains woeful when in a fast pace game in which case he won't have much, if any, of a career. It's also plausible that it improves until it's adequate under pressure and he starts to get the confidence in his strength and speed just like he has confidence in his hands.

He certainly doesn't want too many more games where he looks timid again but at the same time he has elite traits which our team woefully lacks.

Caldwell has been breaking from stoppages and kicking bullets from day 1 of senior training - I think it is Callan Ward (or maybe Phil Davis - it was one of the many captains) who publicly rated him as the most talented player on the list or next gen or something like that. Not saying that I just accept or you should accept what has been said about him as truth but it illustrates the impression Caldwell was making at top club very early in his career. He's otherwise always been mad as a cut snake in terms of his attack on the footy.

Caldwell's problem was that he was basically injured for a 5 to 6 year stretch (dating back to his junior days). The blueprint for what he could be was always present and now he appears to have matured physically to the point that he can carry the workload and translate/convert a game based on all of his obvious strengths to senior footy.

The key difference with Tsatas is that I don't understand what it is about Tsatas' that I'm supposed to be waiting for. I've watched all his AFL games plus at least 10 VFL games. I've never see any evidence of run and power that suggests he has a game breaking from congestion that could justify his poor disposal. As a first touch player it is pretty obvious that he is not someone who can absorb physical pressure - he is another of these players who has clean hands and who will look to first the first possession off. In this sense he is maybe a more physically capable version of Parish. How does that help anyone?

 

[Vander18]

Caldwell has been breaking from stoppages and kicking bullets from day 1 of senior training - I think it is Callan Ward (or maybe Phil Davis - it was one of the many captains) who publicly rated him as the most talented player on the list or next gen or something like that. Not saying that I just accept or you should accept what has been said about him as truth but it illustrates the impression Caldwell was making at top club very early in his career. He's otherwise always been made as a cut snake in terms of his attack on the footy.

Caldwell's problem was that he was basically injured for a 5 to 6 year stretch (dating back to his junior days). The blueprint for what he could be was always present and now he appears to have matured physically to the point that he can carry the workload and translate/convert a game based on all of his obvious strengths to senior footy.

The key difference with Tsatas is that I don't understand what it is about Tsatas' that I'm supposed to be waiting for. I've watched all his AFL games plus at least 10 VFL games. I've never see any evidence of run and power that suggests he has a game breaking from congestion that could justify his poor disposal. As a first touch player it is pretty obvious that he is not someone who can absorb physical pressure - he is another of these players who has clean hands and who will look to first the first possession off. In this sense he is maybe a more physically capable version of Parish. How does that help anyone?

Stop whinging.

 

[BrunoV]

In the sense that many supporters won't give him the wriggle-room to demonstrate that he can be better than he was the other night.
When he has the inevitable bad game, they'll go off their collective nuts without having the common sense to accept that we have him at least until the next trade-draft period.
His faults will be spied and magnified, and as a result of the echo chamber that is big footy, the team's short-comings will be laid at his feet.
Already his potential to play consistently high level footy is being whittled away by judgment upon judgment; his kicking actually hasn't improved. To this has been added that he doesn't like contact and he's a one-position player. I'm not saying these are not truths, just if he plays poorly again, watch these judgments get amplified.

I was bemused by our selection of Tsatas. I was into Phillipou or Humphrey. But I also believe Tsatas has had a long road to get here and it's a bit unfair to trash talk the kid so quickly. If I recall, his knee(s) was/were injured in his draft year. That took time to get right. Of course he then had issues with his kicking so was held back by Scott, much to the chagrin of supporters. He has reportedly worked his arse off to fix the kicking problem, but because we lost on the weekend and our supporters are so impatient, the rolling collective judgment has already started. He's unlucky. With every loss, fans will bark that in large part, this is because Tsatas blah blah blah.

He'll be a whipping boy because many have already made their minds up. And that's fine. It is the way.

As far as I can see, we've got him for this year at least. The whinging on rinse repeat doesn't always work for me, but I understand it. That's why he'll be a whipping boy.

Of course, I could be wrong and he could magically turn it on and be the high range draft pick / player you envision he should be.

Isn't whether he is a whipping boy a matter of whether the criticism is unjustified?

I'm happy to see the evolution of thinking about the game in a way that doesn't have a defender as the whipping boy.

Martin, as the most high profile and probably even the most wasteful, Shiel, McGrath, Tsatas and Hobbs all need a whipping. No side can afford to have 100 to 150 of its possessions in the hands of players who are poor by foot. It becomes 120 to 180 once you include Parish.

 

[ant555]

Disposal is a big issue but not just for hm. We can’t carry all the butchers. Too many of them just can’t kick the footy reliably.

If we where in the meat business we would be making a killing. Enough butchers to open several shops

 

[NAB777]

I agree he is in the similar category as Parish, but as we are finding out, Parish is breaking down more than an old Holden Barina and is 27.

I’m not giving up on the kid. He has the frame to be built like a brick shithouse as soon as he hits his mid 20’s and once he has all of his game build, could use his speed as a weapon to move out of stoppages.

Players like him need time. Watson took years and years before becoming an A+ midfielder and I firmly believe that if Jobe wasn’t a Watson, he would have been gone long before his peak.

Firmly believe he has the tools to be an A grade AFL player, not willing to write him off yet.

Jobe is a good reference, because it took a while to get his body right, too.
The club knew very early - as in by Jobe's second or third practice match - that he was going to be a player if he could get fit. Doc Reid compared his clearance work to Greg Williams.
It took a while, he had a lot of injuries & didn't know how to work hard, but when the penny dropped, it started to happen - runner up in the B&F in season 4. I don't think anyone is seeing that sort of potential in Elijah - in season 3 - at the moment, which is concerning for such a high pick.

 

[ghostdog]

Isn't whether he is a whipping boy a matter of whether the criticism is unjustified?

I'm happy to see the evolution of thinking about the game in a way that doesn't have a defender as the whipping boy.

Martin, as the most high profile and probably even the most wasteful, Shiel, McGrath, Tsatas and Hobbs all need a whipping. No side can afford to have 100 to 150 of its possessions in the hands of players who are poor by foot. It becomes 120 to 180 once you include Parish.

Sure. I don't think it's justified.
Yet.

 

[ghostdog]

If we where in the meat business we would be making a killing. Enough butchers to open several shops

This game is called Name that Biz!
I'll go first.
Steak Through the Heart.


...cringey. Next.

 

[FlyingV]

He’s going to be a great player, and I’m coming back here to take tickets

 

[rootsy]

I agree he is in the similar category as Parish, but as we are finding out, Parish is breaking down more than an old Holden Barina and is 27.

I’m not giving up on the kid. He has the frame to be built like a brick shithouse as soon as he hits his mid 20’s and once he has all of his game build, could use his speed as a weapon to move out of stoppages.

Players like him need time. Watson took years and years before becoming an A+ midfielder and I firmly believe that if Jobe wasn’t a Watson, he would have been gone long before his peak.

Firmly believe he has the tools to be an A grade AFL player, not willing to write him off yet.

Agreed. He’s beefed up considerably since last season. Don’t need to be a jet from day 1, will be interesting to see how he goes this year with more exposure

 

[Mikevk123]

Yep exactly. What he's good at is what Parish is already good at. Based on how he is tracking, he seems to be a mix of Shiel and Parish except with a fundamentally bad kicking action and without Shiel's line breaking ability. I thought he could at worst become Shiel or Treloar in their prime but even that seems a bit of a stretch.

Partly why I think we should chase Harley Reid is because I cannot see Tsatas becoming elite at the areas we're lacking. It's fair to expect a top 5 pick to become an elite player and rectify it early through trade/draft if he isn't tracking to become one.

Parish is actually tough though and will go win a hard ball. This bloke shirks the contest and acts like an outside mid. Needs a few games but I don’t think he’s up to it personally.

 

[Keystone agony]

Agreed. He’s beefed up considerably since last season. Don’t need to be a jet from day 1, will be interesting to see how he goes this year with more exposure

Were at day ~840 now

Eveyone in recruitment at the time of him being selected should be moved on

 

[Red Black and Blue]

Don’t need to be a jet from day 1

I kinda disagree with this. I think that 95+ percent of the stars of the competition (especially non-KPP and rucks) were at least very good players in their first year or at least showing signs of future stardom. I think we probably have the youngest top 50 in the comp we've ever had. If you aren't at least hinting at stardom straight away, probability suggests you won't get there.