Player Watch #23 Judson Clarke

[Muddiemoose]

It's an utter joke how many of our kids are apparently no good. Getting sick of reading it TBH. The kids are fine, they are raw and still getting used to the increased pace of seniors.

It seems if you're not Nick Daicos then your no chance.

Even that fact that we have a section of posters that have this weird way of thinking that if a player doesn’t work out to be a top 5 player in the comp the pick was the waste or they are shit

Take guys like Jack Ross and Hugo who are young players who will probably become best 22 but with limitations but to say that they as picks are busts is complete bullshit

 

[tiger_tough]

Deserves a full game. Hard for a youngster to impact a game as sub, especially for a struggling team. Would like to see Cotchin play the next 3 games as sub to let Judson have a good run at it.

 

[Coach_Required]

Judson Clarke's first 11 games v Sheda







If anything, it's pretty damning on the coach, it's obvious Clarke's last 4 games have been impacted greatly by Dimma's lack of confidence. Would be interested to know how many times he was subbed or subbed off.

 

[tiger_tough]

Judson Clarke's first 11 games v Sheda

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If anything, it's pretty damning on the coach, it's obvious Clarke's last 4 games have been impacted greatly by Dimma's lack of confidence. Would be interested to know how many times he was subbed or subbed off.

He has been subbed on 3 times and never subbed off. You can tell with the arrows on the graphic.

I still have high hopes.

 

[Coach_Required]

He has been subbed on 3 times and never subbed off. You can tell with the arrows on the graphic.

I still have high hopes.

Same here, he has been totally mismanaged the past month.

 

[tora tora tora]

Same here, he has been totally mismanaged the past month.

Sonsie, Clarke & Gibcus can play footy. So Clarke's coming along well I reckon

The club was trying to win games of footy. Clarke had a good preseason was close to selection Round 1. Ended up playing from round 3 onwards.

He's a fringe best 22, a bit undersized

how should his development looked?

 

[tiger_tough]

It's only mismanagement when we're losing...

 

[tora tora tora]

Even that fact that we have a section of posters that have this weird way of thinking that if a player doesn’t work out to be a top 5 player in the comp the pick was the waste or they are s**t

Take guys like Jack Ross and Hugo who are young players who will probably become best 22 but with limitations but to say that they as picks are busts is complete bullshit

Ross & Hugo get selected so they are next in line. The development in dual positions has been good in the long run.
Dow was a bit underwhelming. but glad he got one game, probably needs a few more

 

[Coach_Required]

It's only mismanagement when we're losing...

Fair call but 3 and 2 possessions in his last 2 games suggests something isnt right. He should have been played not subbed on.

 

[tigerfan1961]

He is not soft he just is not of the size yet to compete strongly. Those who have played footy know what a difference even just 10kg makes to strength difference with power athletes. He is a kid with a slight frame who looks really really good and will only get better.

He and Gibcus are the only 2 that will make it from that draft haul.

Only Clarke and Gibcus will make it? Just lolololol. Second year on a list and you’re already dismissing Sonsie, Brown and Banks. Seriously no idea

 

[Coach_Required]

Sonsie, Clarke & Gibcus can play footy. So Clarke's coming along well I reckon

The club was trying to win games of footy. Clarke had a good preseason was close to selection Round 1. Ended up playing from round 3 onwards.

He's a fringe best 22, a bit undersized

how should his development looked?

Given more time on the ground for starters, coming on as a sub when his first dozen games indicated he adds more value to the side when he is actually playing.
Bringing kids on as the sub is pointless when you're trying to win a game, they arent experienced enough to get into a game, they need time to adjust and get used to the tempo. Our senior players should be subs, they have the experience to get into the tempo of a match quicker.

 

[Lord of the Wings]

Where do I start?

Pickett and Baker not Clarke’s picks,
Talent would of been identified by interstate scout Sam Cousens but Clarke ultimately decided to use the pick to select the player identified

Ross is soft and a dud. - That is an opinion so also not a fact

Cumbo being a decoy pick doesn’t make any sense at all, if we didn’t want the player we wouldn’t of bid on him in the first place

You mentioned RCD when you are taking about players being soft, RCD may not of worked out but he wasn’t soft if anything it’s the opposite with his contested game being a standout but lacking on the outside… but at the very least that is also an opinion… not a fact

So you agreed that Pickett and Baker were not Clarke's picks - Tick.

Cumbo was most certainly a decoy pick. Those in the know understand that. Brisbane had limited picks / points to cover their academy players that year and hence our team's strategy was to bid on Cumbo trying to get Brisbane to match that bid which meant they wouldn't have the points to match our next bid on Martyn - this is 100% fact and is on the record. If you watch the vision of our Cumbo pick you can see the team were really disappointed when Brisbane didn't match. They tried to sell it afterwards, but the reality was Clarke rated Martyn (a massive dud) above Cumbo.

Ok RCD wasn't soft he was just a private school tool that wouldn't take feedback on board and work hard enough. Still a massive stuff up by Clarke

Ross is soft as butter. Brandon Ellis scares him. It's why he hasn't played a single minute on ball in the AFL in the last 3 years.

 

[Muddiemoose]

So you agreed that Pickett and Baker were not Clarke's picks - Tick.

Cumbo was most certainly a decoy pick. Those in the know understand that. Brisbane had limited picks / points to cover their academy players that year and hence our team's strategy was to bid on Cumbo trying to get Brisbane to match that bid which meant they wouldn't have the points to match our next bid on Martyn - this is 100% fact and is on the record. If you watch the vision of our Cumbo pick you can see the team were really disappointed when Brisbane didn't match. They tried to sell it afterwards, but the reality was Clarke rated Martyn (a massive dud) above Cumbo.

Ok RCD wasn't soft he was just a private school tool that wouldn't take feedback on board and work hard enough. Still a massive stuff up by Clarke

Ross is soft as butter. Brandon Ellis scares him. It's why he hasn't played a single minute on ball in the AFL in the last 3 years.

If we apply your logic that the WA boys aren’t Clarke’s picks no player we draft are Clarke’s picks because every single player we have ever drafted have all identified by scouts who than report back to Clarke

Do you think on draft night before we pick baker Clake says something along the lines of…

Alright I’ve picked a few boys and can’t be ****ed why don’t you pick the players for me instead and looks at our WA talent scout

Would love for you to also provide the Cumbo decoy pick info that’s on the record

Once again your specific comments on Ross are not facts

 

[Muddiemoose]

Also another point Lord of the Wings

With both Cumbo and Martyn being from the Brisbane academy that would mean they were identified by our QLD scouts

If we use your logic that the WA based players we draft aren’t because of Clarke we need to apply the same logic to our players drafted out of QLD do we not?

So Cumbo being a decoy pick to get Martyn (according to you) wasn’t Clarke’s call it was the call of our QLD scout?

Once again I’m just applying your logic but just wanted confirmation

 

[Lord of the Wings]

If we apply your logic that the WA boys aren’t Clarke’s picks no player we draft are Clarke’s picks because every single player we have ever drafted have all identified by scouts who than report back to Clarke

Do you think on draft night before we pick baker Clake says something along the lines of…

Alright I’ve picked a few boys and can’t be ****ed why don’t you pick the players for me instead and looks at our WA talent scout

Would love for you to also provide the Cumbo decoy pick info that’s on the record

Once again your specific comments on Ross are not facts

Your ignorance of the drafting process is obvious. I'm happy to educate you but you need to be open minded.

Every recruiter / scout has their own list of the top 40 to 50 players. These lists often and usually differ widely.

Cousens would watch our WA kids play live 20 times a year whilst Clarke would only see them live at Nationals and maybe once or twice during the year. Over 3 years from u16 to their draft year that's 60 views versus 10.

That results in Clarke naturally favoring the guys he's watched 20-30 times live. It comes down to Cousens ability to influence and argue the case for his guys during the final "combined" draft rankings and again on the night.

When I say a player is a Cousens pick or a Clarke pick it means the scout / recruiter who has identified the player, followed him play for 3 years and argues hard for him when the final list is put together.

If you watch last year's draft, you see the other recruiters shake Cousens hand after our WA picks acknowledging it was his work and effort that went into the pick. Hence Steely and Smith are Cousens picks

So Baker and Pickett were Cousens picks. On the other hand Judson Clarke and Sonsie were Matt Clarkes picks

My original point was that Judson was a "Matt Clarke" pick and he is soft like all his picks. Hence the point is valid and stands. He favours the outside, skill-full flankers

 

[Lord of the Wings]

Also another point Lord of the Wings

With both Cumbo and Martyn being from the Brisbane academy that would mean they were identified by our QLD scouts

If we use your logic that the WA based players we draft aren’t because of Clarke we need to apply the same logic to our players drafted out of QLD do we not?

So Cumbo being a decoy pick to get Martyn (according to you) wasn’t Clarke’s call it was the call of our QLD scout?

Once again I’m just applying your logic but just wanted confirmation

We didn't have a Queensland Scout in 2019 and believe we still don't. Thank the AFL for the soft-cap cuts for that.

We only have genuine scouts in WA, SA and Victoria. Hence Clarke, Thursfield (now North), Taylor (now Crows) and Jackson who were all Melbourne based covered Qld, NSW & Tassie in addition to Victoria in 2019.

 

[Muddiemoose]

We didn't have a Queensland Scout in 2019 and believe we still don't. Thank the AFL for the soft-cap cuts for that.

We only have genuine scouts in WA, SA and Victoria. Hence Clarke, Thursfield (now North), Taylor (now Crows), Gieschen and Jackson who were all Melbourne based cover Qld, NSW & Tassie in addition to Victoria.

So it’s Girschen and Jackson who can take responsibility for the Cumbo Martyn decoy move?

 

[Muddiemoose]

Your ignorance of the drafting process is obvious. I'm happy to educate you but you need to be open minded.

Every recruiter / scout has their own list of the top 40 to 50 players. These lists often and usually differ widely.

Cousens would watch our WA kids play live 20 times a year whilst Clarke would only see them live at Nationals and maybe once or twice during the year. Over 3 years from u16 to their draft year that's 60 views versus 10.

That results in Clarke naturally favoring the guys he's watched 20-30 times live. It comes down to Cousens ability to influence and argue the case for his guys during the final "combined" draft rankings and again on the night.

When I say a player is a Cousens pick or a Clarke pick it means the scout / recruiter who has identified the player, followed him play for 3 years and argues hard for him when the final list is put together.

If you watch last year's draft, you see the other recruiters shake Cousens hand after our WA picks acknowledging it was his work and effort that went into the pick. Hence Steely and Smith are Cousens picks

So Baker and Pickett were Cousens picks. On the other hand Judson Clarke and Sonsie were Matt Clarkes picks

My original point was that Judson was a "Matt Clarke" pick and he is soft like all his picks. Hence the point is valid and stands. He favours the outside, skill-full flankers

But wouldn’t the Melbourne based players fall at the feet of the Melbourne based scouts and not Clarke who just listened to the arguments of those scouts like he does with the interstate ones?

 

[Lord of the Wings]

But wouldn’t the Melbourne based players fall at the feet of the Melbourne based scouts and not Clarke who just listened to the arguments of those scouts like he does with the interstate ones?

I see your logic but no. Clarke watches as many or more of the Victorian kids than any other Scout at the club who might find themselves in Tassie or NSW instead every 2nd or 3rd weekend

 

[Muddiemoose]

I see your logic but no. Clarke watches as many or more of the Victorian kids than any other Scout at the club who might find themselves in Tassie or NSW instead every 2nd or 3rd weekend

Even if that is the case you apply our interstate draft wins purely on our interstate scouts who I agree do a fantastic job but at the same time give

Clarke no credit in electing to follow the advice of the people he appointed in those roles and select those players when the pick is up on draft night

You can’t lay the blame on Clarke solely for the bad picks without also acknowledging his influence on the good picks because either way it’s either because he has put the right people under him to give him good info or he has made the call himself to use the pick that night to draft that player

 

[austyn08]

I keep reading this but have not seen it

Can you or anybody give me an example of where he was 'soft'
I have most games recorded so if anybody can give me a game or quarter where he has pulled out or shirked and contest id love to see it

he is an outside player so if by soft you guys mean doesnt go into the pits to get the ball then soft is not the word you should be using

Saw him pull out of a contested ball in a ressie game last year, the same game brown did the same thing. Not going to label either for that, but they didn’t want contact at that time.

 

[acr2751]

Sheds showed plenty more than Judson in his early days. The signs were there, especially with his elite disposal. Judson hasn't shown much. Be shocked if he gets anywhere near Sheds level.

elite ??? he sometimes missed his foot his disposal was so bad

 

[Profop]

So you agreed that Pickett and Baker were not Clarke's picks - Tick.

Cumbo was most certainly a decoy pick. Those in the know understand that. Brisbane had limited picks / points to cover their academy players that year and hence our team's strategy was to bid on Cumbo trying to get Brisbane to match that bid which meant they wouldn't have the points to match our next bid on Martyn - this is 100% fact and is on the record. If you watch the vision of our Cumbo pick you can see the team were really disappointed when Brisbane didn't match. They tried to sell it afterwards, but the reality was Clarke rated Martyn (a massive dud) above Cumbo.

Ok RCD wasn't soft he was just a private school tool that wouldn't take feedback on board and work hard enough. Still a massive stuff up by Clarke

Ross is soft as butter. Brandon Ellis scares him. It's why he hasn't played a single minute on ball in the AFL in the last 3 years.

I mean the decoy thing with Brisbane calling our bluff and not taking Cumberland makes no sense because they then also didn’t take Martyn who we were apparently bluffing to get?

Also RCD went to Salesian College which really isn’t the ‘private school’ vibe you’re going on about

Most of what you’re writing makes zero sense

 

[RockJobster0312]

Your ignorance of the drafting process is obvious. I'm happy to educate you but you need to be open minded.

Every recruiter / scout has their own list of the top 40 to 50 players. These lists often and usually differ widely.

Cousens would watch our WA kids play live 20 times a year whilst Clarke would only see them live at Nationals and maybe once or twice during the year. Over 3 years from u16 to their draft year that's 60 views versus 10.

That results in Clarke naturally favoring the guys he's watched 20-30 times live. It comes down to Cousens ability to influence and argue the case for his guys during the final "combined" draft rankings and again on the night.

When I say a player is a Cousens pick or a Clarke pick it means the scout / recruiter who has identified the player, followed him play for 3 years and argues hard for him when the final list is put together.

If you watch last year's draft, you see the other recruiters shake Cousens hand after our WA picks acknowledging it was his work and effort that went into the pick. Hence Steely and Smith are Cousens picks

So Baker and Pickett were Cousens picks. On the other hand Judson Clarke and Sonsie were Matt Clarkes picks

My original point was that Judson was a "Matt Clarke" pick and he is soft like all his picks. Hence the point is valid and stands. He favours the outside, skill-full flankers

Yeah, that’s also not how it works.

Every recruiter will have their own patch which they take the lead on, and Clarke oversees all. Prospects are scouted years in advance. Cousens will watch kids 12, 13 and 14 just as he’ll watch them in their draft year.

They also have access to video for all the games which prospects are played. This includes WAFL Colts and SANFL Jr’s.

Matt Clarke will watch all these games undoubtedly. Maybe not live, but he will certainly watch them.

Matt Clarke and his team will also interview every prospect, their parents. They’ll speak to a prospects former coaches and teachers and friends.

This data, and all scouting notes feed into a single database of which the club keeps. This is obviously over a multi year period.

In terms of finalizing the list, that will be done pre-draft in a large getaway with the recruiting staff, the coaching staff and Blair Hartley.

No one player is ever one specific recruiters pick. Yes, Cousens will strongly argue for certain WA players as will Geichen (from this draft onwards) for others. Clarke is also not going to be so prejudicial to Victorian players because he’s seen them more times live than interstate prospects. He would know each prospect intimately. I think you’ll find that most teams value the non-footy stuff almost as much as the on-field stuff.

If you go from 2016 and include pre-season and MSD selections (but not including father-sons or rookied former primary list players); the count is:

Vic - 13
SA - 4
WA - 8
QLD - 3
TAS - 3

Twenty interstate players versus 13 Victorian indicates to me a varied and democratic approach to our drafting under Clarke’s tenure.

I mean the decoy thing with Brisbane calling our bluff and not taking Cumberland makes no sense because they then also didn’t take Martyn who we were apparently bluffing to get?

Also RCD went to Salesian College which really isn’t the ‘private school’ vibe you’re going on about

Most of what you’re writing makes zero sense

There was a rumor floated on here that we had Martyn ranked over Cumberland. Brisbane had enough points to match one, but not both and so we bid on Cumberland first on the basis that if Brisbane would match it wouldn’t be able to match a Martyn bid.

The rumour may have some truth to it (I’ve also heard it from someone who works in player management), but no one is naive to think (especially our recruiting team) that if Brisbane preferred Martyn, it wouldn’t bid on anyone earlier for the sake of it. Brisbane would obviously know It’s position in terms of points and picks etc. and have a strategy of when to match a bid and when not to for its Academy players.

You also don’t bid on players you don’t want. You obviously don’t want to be in a situation where you’ve used a value draft pick, given a two year contract and a substantial sum for a player you don’t want.

So even if it’s true, it’s not to say that Richmond didn’t want Cumberland at all. That would be incorrect.

 

[Lord of the Wings]

Yeah, that’s also not how it works.

Every recruiter will have their own patch which they take the lead on, and Clarke oversees all. Prospects are scouted years in advance. Cousens will watch kids 12, 13 and 14 just as he’ll watch them in their draft year.

They also have access to video for all the games which prospects are played. This includes WAFL Colts and SANFL Jr’s.

Matt Clarke will watch all these games undoubtedly. Maybe not live, but he will certainly watch them.

Matt Clarke and his team will also interview every prospect, their parents. They’ll speak to a prospects former coaches and teachers and friends.

This data, and all scouting notes feed into a single database of which the club keeps. This is obviously over a multi year period.

In terms of finalizing the list, that will be done pre-draft in a large getaway with the recruiting staff, the coaching staff and Blair Hartley.

No one player is ever one specific recruiters pick. Yes, Cousens will strongly argue for certain WA players as will Geichen (from this draft onwards) for others. Clarke is also not going to be so prejudicial to Victorian players because he’s seen them more times live than interstate prospects. He would know each prospect intimately. I think you’ll find that most teams value the non-footy stuff almost as much as the on-field stuff.

If you go from 2016 and include pre-season and MSD selections (but not including father-sons or rookied former primary list players); the count is:

Vic - 13
SA - 4
WA - 8
QLD - 3
TAS - 3

Twenty interstate players versus 13 Victorian indicates to me a varied and democratic approach to our drafting under Clarke’s tenure.



There was a rumor floated on here that we had Martyn ranked over Cumberland. Brisbane had enough points to match one, but not both and so we bid on Cumberland first on the basis that if Brisbane would match it wouldn’t be able to match a Martyn bid.

The rumour may have some truth to it (I’ve also heard it from someone who works in player management), but no one is naive to think (especially our recruiting team) that if Brisbane preferred Martyn, it wouldn’t bid on anyone earlier for the sake of it. Brisbane would obviously know It’s position in terms of points and picks etc. and have a strategy of when to match a bid and when not to for its Academy players.

You also don’t bid on players you don’t want. You obviously don’t want to be in a situation where you’ve used a value draft pick, given a two year contract and a substantial sum for a player you don’t want.

So even if it’s true, it’s not to say that Richmond didn’t want Cumberland at all. That would be incorrect.

A fair bit in here that you've got correct but it sounds like you've gone to the pre-draft briefing that some exec members get. So, you've got the sanitized or textbook version of realtiy.

Clarke does not watch all the games Cousens watches live. He'll watch the Champion Data edited highlights and that's it and often he'll watch them on the recommendation of Cousens.

Also, I didn't say the club didn't want Cumberland. I said Clarke rated Martyn higher.