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Genuine pace. That is what we need.

We lack defensive midfielders. What we have is old fashioned defensive midfielders, guys who are big, strong and push and shove an opponent. That is outdated, that is not how teams defend around the ball and apply pressure anymore. The game has changed a lot and teams use pace and closing speed to apply defensive pressure. We don't have onballers who can cover 1-5 meters really quickly to get to a lose ball or opposition ball carrier to make a contest, lay a tackle or apply good quality pressure.

Our structure and game plan in the middle of the ground is so outdated. Add one or two guys who have serious closing speed in there, who play with effort and tackle well and that changes everything. That gets our backline pumping, rebound going and ball movement going.

Kennedy, Hewett, Cripps (treacle), Cerra (average pace), Walsh (quick but doesn't use it enough). Is not a premiership onball group. It's good. It's not great. It doesn't do enough when getting beaten for the ball or the pressure is really high from a faster paced side.

So we need to fix this.

Defence. I really think that we have a good backline. But it's been smashed with injuries and we have the wrong midfield to support an attacking, intercepting rebounding backline.


Forward line. We are lacking forwards badly. Mostly medium forwards. We have seen how much better the forward line functions with Jack Martin. That taller forward who is quick and good at ground level. Our smaller forwards aren't quite up to it. We need smaller forwards with tougher, harder bodies and some genuine pace. The Sydney game. You take Papley and Warner and put them in our side and that changes everything. Durdin hasn't become the forward he was looking like becoming in 2022. Fantasia hasn't become the forward he has been at other clubs. You have to question the coaching about this though. Motlop been injured. Martin been injured. Silvagni would have been handy.

Can we do a Geelong who stocked up on half forwards in their rebuild? They were able to land Dangerfield and followed up by stacking the shelves with forwards from other clubs.

Problem with our small and medium forwards. They aren't marking threats so they don't open up the forward line. Fantasia, Cottrell, Hollands, Durdin aren't presenting as targets well enough and marking well enough to open the forward line up. Opposition know there are two or three guys who will take marks and present really well up forward and all they have to do is cover them. Is it coaching or lack of talent?


Our needs list is modern day defensive mids. Mids who apply pressure with closing speed. Not old fashioned taggers like we have. Genuine medium and maybe a small forward. Our midfield and forward line badly needs a makeover.

I've been saying this about our midfield for ages now and have been bagged out over it quite a lot. We only had Cerra out last night and they just ran it relentlessly out of the middle and moved the ball really well. They are quick. We are slow. It's leg speed. I hope everyone can see that now.
 
Accidental genius said:
I've never seen these kids play - any promise - what are their strengths ?
Click to expand...
Ben - Accumulation, natural clearance smarts, tackling, endurance, elite by hand, very strong through the hips.

Not overly damaging by foot, is neat but has a clunky action and lacks the ability to hurt.



Lucas - Endurance, kicking can be very good but inconsistent, reads the play well and gets to good areas.

Bit more outside, still a good tackler and capable of winning hardballs but not his natural game.



Neither are fleet of foot, much like Ollie or Cerra in that they both are good runners but aren't line breakers by any stretch.
 

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Michael Jezz said:
Agree Hollands is a wingman only. No true explosiveness. He needs more strength to make it. Binns is not convincing on multiple fronts
Click to expand...
If we didn't have the mountain of injuries, we should be developing Kemp as a wingman. His qualities are perfect for the modern day winger. Elite at dropping back into defence. Can take a mark around the ground. Fast. Strong body. Good endurance. likes to take the game on and run with the ball. Natural footballer.

Hollands IMO should be developing in the VFL. Wing and half back. I see him as a Kade Simpson type. Slow starter, slow developer. But has some qualities that could see him turn into a good half back or wing.
 
WalshistheGOAT said:
Ben - Accumulation, natural clearance smarts, tackling, endurance, elite by hand, very strong through the hips.

Not overly damaging by foot, is neat but has a clunky action and lacks the ability to hurt.



Lucas - Endurance, kicking can be very good but inconsistent, reads the play well and gets to good areas.

Bit more outside, still a good tackler and capable of winning hardballs but not his natural game.



Neither are fleet of foot, much like Ollie or Cerra in that they both are good runners but aren't line breakers by any stretch.
Click to expand...
Thanks - that is a great summary of their strengths/style.

For some reason - maybe just wishful thinking - i perceive them to be like the daicos brothers :)
 
Without trying to be too dramatic after a loss to a side who look head and shoulders above the rest so far but I would be trying to find out if E.Hollands can play big midfield minutes from now on. If he is capable I’d go with Cripps, Hollands, Walsh and Cerra as our midfielders and move Kennedy and Hewett to the VFL. Play flankers on the flanks rather then try and fit one paced mids into the side, We would then have strong runners all over the ground and it’s then upto the coaches to make it work.
 
WalshistheGOAT said:
Ben - Accumulation, natural clearance smarts, tackling, endurance, elite by hand, very strong through the hips.

Not overly damaging by foot, is neat but has a clunky action and lacks the ability to hurt.



Lucas - Endurance, kicking can be very good but inconsistent, reads the play well and gets to good areas.

Bit more outside, still a good tackler and capable of winning hardballs but not his natural game.



Neither are fleet of foot, much like Ollie or Cerra in that they both are good runners but aren't line breakers by any stretch.
Click to expand...

Sound Not fast - So, our needs IMO, to reach top2/real flag tilt, are clearly:
  • pace in the midfield, and
  • medium/small forwards who threaten Oppo

Not sure where this leaves non-fast endurance guys, as we have a few. Hope the board/coaches/Austin are onto this and are prepared to get what we need this
 
gbatman said:
Genuine pace. That is what we need.

We lack defensive midfielders. What we have is old fashioned defensive midfielders, guys who are big, strong and push and shove an opponent. That is outdated, that is not how teams defend around the ball and apply pressure anymore. The game has changed a lot and teams use pace and closing speed to apply defensive pressure. We don't have onballers who can cover 1-5 meters really quickly to get to a lose ball or opposition ball carrier to make a contest, lay a tackle or apply good quality pressure.

Our structure and game plan in the middle of the ground is so outdated. Add one or two guys who have serious closing speed in there, who play with effort and tackle well and that changes everything. That gets our backline pumping, rebound going and ball movement going.

Kennedy, Hewett, Cripps (treacle), Cerra (average pace), Walsh (quick but doesn't use it enough). Is not a premiership onball group. It's good. It's not great. It doesn't do enough when getting beaten for the ball or the pressure is really high from a faster paced side.

So we need to fix this.

Defence. I really think that we have a good backline. But it's been smashed with injuries and we have the wrong midfield to support an attacking, intercepting rebounding backline.


Forward line. We are lacking forwards badly. Mostly medium forwards. We have seen how much better the forward line functions with Jack Martin. That taller forward who is quick and good at ground level. Our smaller forwards aren't quite up to it. We need smaller forwards with tougher, harder bodies and some genuine pace. The Sydney game. You take Papley and Warner and put them in our side and that changes everything. Durdin hasn't become the forward he was looking like becoming in 2022. Fantasia hasn't become the forward he has been at other clubs. You have to question the coaching about this though. Motlop been injured. Martin been injured. Silvagni would have been handy.

Can we do a Geelong who stocked up on half forwards in their rebuild? They were able to land Dangerfield and followed up by stacking the shelves with forwards from other clubs.

Problem with our small and medium forwards. They aren't marking threats so they don't open up the forward line. Fantasia, Cottrell, Hollands, Durdin aren't presenting as targets well enough and marking well enough to open the forward line up. Opposition know there are two or three guys who will take marks and present really well up forward and all they have to do is cover them. Is it coaching or lack of talent?


Our needs list is modern day defensive mids. Mids who apply pressure with closing speed. Not old fashioned taggers like we have. Genuine medium and maybe a small forward. Our midfield and forward line badly needs a makeover.

I've been saying this about our midfield for ages now and have been bagged out over it quite a lot. We only had Cerra out last night and they just ran it relentlessly out of the middle and moved the ball really well. They are quick. We are slow. It's leg speed. I hope everyone can see that now.
Click to expand...
Excellent observations. We are treacle away from the stoppage. Happened all night as our midfielders have no acceleration against quality players like Warner and Paply.
 
Y Goat said:
Sound Not fast - So, our needs IMO, to reach top2/real flag tilt, are clearly:
  • pace in the midfield, and
  • medium/small forwards who threaten Oppo

Not sure where this leaves non-fast endurance guys, as we have a few. Hope the board/coaches/Austin are onto this and are prepared to get what we need this
Click to expand...
Non fast endurance guys will improve with more pre seasons in the gym but I agree, we do need some genuine wheels in our side.

It's a glaring hole both offensively and defensively.
 

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gbatman said:
Genuine pace. That is what we need.

We lack defensive midfielders. What we have is old fashioned defensive midfielders, guys who are big, strong and push and shove an opponent. That is outdated, that is not how teams defend around the ball and apply pressure anymore. The game has changed a lot and teams use pace and closing speed to apply defensive pressure. We don't have onballers who can cover 1-5 meters really quickly to get to a lose ball or opposition ball carrier to make a contest, lay a tackle or apply good quality pressure.

Our structure and game plan in the middle of the ground is so outdated. Add one or two guys who have serious closing speed in there, who play with effort and tackle well and that changes everything. That gets our backline pumping, rebound going and ball movement going.

Kennedy, Hewett, Cripps (treacle), Cerra (average pace), Walsh (quick but doesn't use it enough). Is not a premiership onball group. It's good. It's not great. It doesn't do enough when getting beaten for the ball or the pressure is really high from a faster paced side.

So we need to fix this.

Defence. I really think that we have a good backline. But it's been smashed with injuries and we have the wrong midfield to support an attacking, intercepting rebounding backline.


Forward line. We are lacking forwards badly. Mostly medium forwards. We have seen how much better the forward line functions with Jack Martin. That taller forward who is quick and good at ground level. Our smaller forwards aren't quite up to it. We need smaller forwards with tougher, harder bodies and some genuine pace. The Sydney game. You take Papley and Warner and put them in our side and that changes everything. Durdin hasn't become the forward he was looking like becoming in 2022. Fantasia hasn't become the forward he has been at other clubs. You have to question the coaching about this though. Motlop been injured. Martin been injured. Silvagni would have been handy.

Can we do a Geelong who stocked up on half forwards in their rebuild? They were able to land Dangerfield and followed up by stacking the shelves with forwards from other clubs.

Problem with our small and medium forwards. They aren't marking threats so they don't open up the forward line. Fantasia, Cottrell, Hollands, Durdin aren't presenting as targets well enough and marking well enough to open the forward line up. Opposition know there are two or three guys who will take marks and present really well up forward and all they have to do is cover them. Is it coaching or lack of talent?


Our needs list is modern day defensive mids. Mids who apply pressure with closing speed. Not old fashioned taggers like we have. Genuine medium and maybe a small forward. Our midfield and forward line badly needs a makeover.

I've been saying this about our midfield for ages now and have been bagged out over it quite a lot. We only had Cerra out last night and they just ran it relentlessly out of the middle and moved the ball really well. They are quick. We are slow. It's leg speed. I hope everyone can see that now.
Click to expand...
Add ball skills and footy smarts too.
We stuff too many switch kicks and corridor kick attempts so we just play predictable footy.
Without players like Cuningham and Martin out there we don't pose a threat at ground level.
 
gbatman said:
If we didn't have the mountain of injuries, we should be developing Kemp as a wingman. His qualities are perfect for the modern day winger. Elite at dropping back into defence. Can take a mark around the ground. Fast. Strong body. Good endurance. likes to take the game on and run with the ball. Natural footballer.

Hollands IMO should be developing in the VFL. Wing and half back. I see him as a Kade Simpson type. Slow starter, slow developer. But has some qualities that could see him turn into a good half back or wing.
Click to expand...
Kemp doesn't have the tank to be a wingman
Hollands one out in defence is a disaster waiting to happen. The opposition would salivate at the prospect of isolating him.
 
JJBagger said:
Progression is never linear. If the swans win a flag, they've gone from a grand final, to 8th, to a flag. Pies made a granny in '18, couple of years of finals, bottom 2, prelim, flag. Tigers had 3 years of elimination final losses, down to 13th, to 3 flags in 4 years. It's a journey, we need to stop worrying this "it's a failure if we dont achieve x result" as a fanbase
Click to expand...

It would be interesting to know the data behind the age demographics of each list though, Collingwood i think or remember having a pretty old side, the Cats premiership was the oldest, but the Swans are stacked with young and up and coming guns, the Tigers core i think were still pretty young when they broke through for their flags.

If its not this year, our core top line players will be late 20s, early 30s, it shows how poor the rest of the side and how bad the drafting/recruiting was
 
TENACIOUS said:
No…

We have too many sub standard players
  • Mirkov, Akeui, Fantasia, Durdin x2, Monahan, J.Carroll (15.9% of our list)
Too many injury prone players
  • Docherty, Cuningham, Martin, Cerra, Marchbank, Motlop, Williams, Durdin x2, M.Carroll, Walsh (25% of our list)
Too many small medium forwards
  • Motlop, E.Hollands, Cottrell, Fogarty, Fantasia, Durdin, Martin, Cuningham, Moir, Owies (22.7% of our list)
No pure midfield depth
  • J.Carroll
We need pure midfielders with pace and decision making.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your thoughts but my question was more asking about our valuable players and the balance with them, especially the rucks. It seems Pitto is the preferred and number 1 ruck, if this is the case, where does that leave TDK? I can only assume Tom is on decent coin and he becomes a free agent next season, 7 years in and he still hasn’t locked down his spot.

I actually thunk he has regressed since Pitto came back and we looked better when H was chopping out in the ruck, even though Pitto is a lot better ruckman.

We have a few areas of weakness and we can’t carry too many players in one area of the ground, if we have deficiencies in others.
 
Have to ask the question of Bolton if it's even a remote possibility. Tigers are an absolute rabble and will be for a long long time.

Bolton, the Campo boys and a low budget free/delisted free agent would be a wet dream.
 
WalshistheGOAT said:
Have to ask the question of Bolton if it's even a remote possibility. Tigers are an absolute rabble and will be for a long long time.

Bolton, the Campo boys and a low budget free/delisted free agent would be a wet dream.
Click to expand...

I guess he has been part of a winning culture, even if he is a bit undisciplined at times. We need someone like him for sure.

I'm guessing he is contracted though as he is due for free agency. Probably a better option than Hayward otherwise.
 
WalshistheGOAT said:
Definitely a major figjam type but he runs hard and is magic at his best. Certainly help with our pace through the midfield issue and goal kicking at ground level inside 50
Click to expand...

Yes, can do both very well. Dual threat.
 
I'd take a look at Ben Ainsworth and Josh Battle as free agents. I think we should move Sam Durdin and Caleb Marchbank on.
 
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