List Mgmt. 2023 Draft/Trade/FA thread

[Scythe94]

Seems a good time to pin this:


OOC players:

• Michael Hibberd (retired)
• Deakyn Smith (delisted)
• Andy Moniz-Wakefield
• Jake Melksham (delisted, will be re-drafted as a rookie)
• Luke Dunstan (retired)
• James Jordon (signed with Sydney as a Free Agent)
• Kye Turner (delisted)

Traded out:

• James Harmes (Bulldogs)
• Brodie Grundy (Sydney)

Traded in:

• Tom Fullarton (Brisbane)
• Jack Billings (St Kilda)
• Shane McAdam (Adelaide)

Drafted:

• Caleb Windsor (Pick 7)
• Koltyn Tholstrup (Pick 13)
• Kynan Brown (Rookie)

 

[Jordie_tackles]

• Archer Reid
• Logan Morris (191cm but plays taller. Could grow to Curnow height)
• Mitchell Edwards: 206cm ruck. Would’ve been nice to have on the list wouldn’t you say.
• Ollie Murphy 200cm key defender.
• Liam Fawcett: Key forward.
• Lachlan Smith: ruckman
• Zane Zakostelsky: 196cm key forward
• Patrick Snell: key defender.

Now, all of these guys were considered to be draft able talent by their respective clubs. There are many interstate players here. If I had at my disposal a team of full-time recruiters, like Jason Taylor does, access to interview all of the kids, psych testing etc. then I'm sure I could pick 2 of the above kids. If any one of the kids above make it as a regular best 22 player then its egg on the faces of the Mfc recruiting team. Even if we pick 2 and they don't work out, it's still the right play. Because we know 1 thing, Ben Brown and Tom Mcdonald are simply too bad to contribute in any way beyond Casey. So what did we have to lose? Nothing!

Pretty sure the first 3 (the best on that list were off the board by our traded picks if it was pick 34 (28) moving back. Probably what the recruiters decided

 

[Demon 16]

• Archer Reid
• Logan Morris (191cm but plays taller. Could grow to Curnow height)
• Mitchell Edwards: 206cm ruck. Would’ve been nice to have on the list wouldn’t you say.
• Ollie Murphy 200cm key defender.
• Liam Fawcett: Key forward.
• Lachlan Smith: ruckman
• Zane Zakostelsky: 196cm key forward
• Patrick Snell: key defender.

Now, all of these guys were considered to be draft able talent by their respective clubs. There are many interstate players here. If I had at my disposal a team of full-time recruiters, like Jason Taylor does, access to interview all of the kids, psych testing etc. then I'm sure I could pick 2 of the above kids. If any one of the kids above make it as a regular best 22 player then its egg on the faces of the Mfc recruiting team. Even if we pick 2 and they don't work out, it's still the right play. Because we know 1 thing, Ben Brown and Tom Mcdonald are simply too bad to contribute in any way beyond Casey. So what did we have to lose? Nothing!

I reckon the better strategy (to get another young tall onto the list) would have been to take O’Sullivan or Curtin with our first pick and take mids later on.

None of the guys you’ve listed there interest me as much as Windsor or Tholstrup.

I am hopeful that the club will keep drafting best available, and trade for needs - so I see a big offer going out next year for an established tall forward or defender if indeed Petty goes to Adelaide.

 

[Lord Nev]

• Archer Reid
• Logan Morris (191cm but plays taller. Could grow to Curnow height)
• Mitchell Edwards: 206cm ruck. Would’ve been nice to have on the list wouldn’t you say.
• Ollie Murphy 200cm key defender.
• Liam Fawcett: Key forward.
• Lachlan Smith: ruckman
• Zane Zakostelsky: 196cm key forward
• Patrick Snell: key defender.

Now, all of these guys were considered to be draft able talent by their respective clubs. There are many interstate players here. If I had at my disposal a team of full-time recruiters, like Jason Taylor does, access to interview all of the kids, psych testing etc. then I'm sure I could pick 2 of the above kids. If any one of the kids above make it as a regular best 22 player then its egg on the faces of the Mfc recruiting team. Even if we pick 2 and they don't work out, it's still the right play. Because we know 1 thing, Ben Brown and Tom Mcdonald are simply too bad to contribute in any way beyond Casey. So what did we have to lose? Nothing!

Geez, blood from a stone, who would have thought?

So, it seems out of that list; only Reid is a genuine key forward. The rest are listed as either defenders or rucks from what I've seen, and 191cm is not a key forward.

Now, let's actually get things straight here mate: You don't get to say "If any one of the kids above make it as a regular best 22 player then its egg on the faces of the Mfc recruiting team" because that's a disingenuous take if I'm being kind to your motives.

The full context is - Were any of them worth paying a million dollars to recruit this year? Did we consider we would have better key forward options in the trade and draft period next year, especially with TMac and Brown off the books? Did we want to push our list to be even younger in the key forward department when an important part of our core group are driving success now, rather than looking at rebuilding?

Your comment: "Even if we pick 2 and they don't work out, it's still the right play." is simply absurd. I mean, I truly hope you realize that. There is not a more definitive statement someone could make to show they have no understanding of list management.

I'm no fan of TMac and Brown, but to not understand AFL lists so badly as you have as to want to pay out a million dollars so we can have two 18 year olds who will contribute nothing while our key core is in premiership contention is a real jump the shark moment for your posting.

The last bit that's hilarious is you saying "If I had at my disposal a team of full-time recruiters, like Jason Taylor does, access to interview all of the kids, psych testing etc. then I'm sure I could pick 2 of the above kids." Do you not understand what you're even writing? One of the most highly rated recruiters in the league, and his team, after allllllll that testing, decided not to take any of them in the full context of our list scenario. I mean, I totally get (and often join in with) critiquing things about the club, the coaching etc, but this is next level nuff.

I did the work for you in an earlier post and listed the players taken with what our picks ended up being. Let's reassess at the end of 2024 and see how they went.

 

[Lord Nev]

I reckon the better strategy (to get another young tall onto the list) would have been to take O’Sullivan or Curtin with our first pick and take mids later on.

None of the guys you’ve listed there interest me as much as Windsor or Tholstrup.

I am hopeful that the club will keep drafting best available, and trade for needs - so I see a big offer going out next year for an established tall forward or defender if indeed Petty goes to Adelaide.

Apparently JT wasn't a huge fan of the way Curtin interviewed. Wasn't convinced by his competitiveness.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Apparently JT wasn't a huge fan of the way Curtin interviewed. Wasn't convinced by his competitiveness.

I like JT and I'm sure it's a directive from the coach, but the must be a competitor stuff is getting tiresome

Typical Melbourne nonsense. Competitors over quality disposal. And we wonder why our connection sucks year after year.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

That's not to say I think Curtin is miles better than Windsor, i like Windsor, coz he at least brings something different to the table. His defensive work and competitiveness is good and all but I really couldn't care about it at the end of the day. More interested in what he offers offensively. I would have gone Curtin coz he's a beautiful kick, but Windsor is alright.

More annoyed about Tholstrup over Leake. One is good in the air for his size and a beautiful finisher. The other is exactly the sort of player we have already in spades, hard at it, average disposal.

 

[jhong]

A good coach will see what troops he has at his disposal and come up with a game plan to suit , a dickhead will devise his approach and expect the team to follow it . I know which one is our coach . Come on Goody , prove me wrong !

 

[stEdy]

Heard that our recruiters were into Caddy for a long time but got cold feet late.

Don't know why but it was from a current recruiter.

 

[danster168]

I reckon the better strategy (to get another young tall onto the list) would have been to take O’Sullivan or Curtin with our first pick and take mids later on.

None of the guys you’ve listed there interest me as much as Windsor or Tholstrup.

I am hopeful that the club will keep drafting best available, and trade for needs - so I see a big offer going out next year for an established tall forward or defender if indeed Petty goes to Adelaide.

yeah but we're not the ones making the decisions are we. For all we know Jason Taylor might have thought O'Sullivan was a spud or that Curtin was overrated. We don't know what he was thinking. Other than he rated Windsor higher than both of them.

what you're saying is valid but the only counter to my argument is of Jason Taylor thought that there was no draftable talent at 26 and onwards and hence trading both picks for a minor upgrade. But I find that very hard to believe. So I believe we should've rolled the dice on any number of the key position picks that I listed.

 

[Bluelegs]

yeah but we're not the ones making the decisions are we. For all we know Jason Taylor might have thought O'Sullivan was a spud or that Curtin was overrated. We don't know what he was thinking. Other than he rated Windsor higher than both of them.

what you're saying is valid but the only counter to my argument is of Jason Taylor thought that there was no draftable talent at 26 and onwards and hence trading both picks for a minor upgrade. But I find that very hard to believe. So I believe we should've rolled the dice on any number of the key position picks that I listed.

I think the most likely scenario is that we were taking a punt on Harley Reid and there was nothing really that interested us in the later part of the draft so we were happy to give those picks up.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Heard that our recruiters were into Caddy for a long time but got cold feet late.

Don't know why but it was from a current recruiter.

Interesting. See if you can dig up the reason.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

actually if its "not enough of a competitor" dont tell me coz ill probably lose it

 

[Lord Nev]

I like JT and I'm sure it's a directive from the coach, but the must be a competitor stuff is getting tiresome

Typical Melbourne nonsense. Competitors over quality disposal. And we wonder why our connection sucks year after year.

Yeah, get where you're coming from with that tbh. Might depend on the individual case though, like comparing JVR and Jefferson for example.

 

[danster168]

Geez, blood from a stone, who would have thought?

So, it seems out of that list; only Reid is a genuine key forward. The rest are listed as either defenders or rucks from what I've seen, and 191cm is not a key forward.

Now, let's actually get things straight here mate: You don't get to say "If any one of the kids above make it as a regular best 22 player then its egg on the faces of the Mfc recruiting team" because that's a disingenuous take if I'm being kind to your motives.

The full context is - Were any of them worth paying a million dollars to recruit this year? Did we consider we would have better key forward options in the trade and draft period next year, especially with TMac and Brown off the books? Did we want to push our list to be even younger in the key forward department when an important part of our core group are driving success now, rather than looking at rebuilding?

Your comment: "Even if we pick 2 and they don't work out, it's still the right play." is simply absurd. I mean, I truly hope you realize that. There is not a more definitive statement someone could make to show they have no understanding of list management.

I'm no fan of TMac and Brown, but to not understand AFL lists so badly as you have as to want to pay out a million dollars so we can have two 18 year olds who will contribute nothing while our key core is in premiership contention is a real jump the shark moment for your posting.

The last bit that's hilarious is you saying "If I had at my disposal a team of full-time recruiters, like Jason Taylor does, access to interview all of the kids, psych testing etc. then I'm sure I could pick 2 of the above kids." Do you not understand what you're even writing? One of the most highly rated recruiters in the league, and his team, after allllllll that testing, decided not to take any of them in the full context of our list scenario. I mean, I totally get (and often join in with) critiquing things about the club, the coaching etc, but this is next level nuff.

I did the work for you in an earlier post and listed the players taken with what our picks ended up being. Let's reassess at the end of 2024 and see how they went.

They didn't decide not to take them. They decided to go up the order so that they could make a play for Reid, Duursma or Watson etc. but got no nibbles. It backfired, we got no takers and paid overs to move up.

How are TMac and Ben Brown are going to contribute to the MFC next season? both of them are borderline vfl players. whether we pay them out or not is irrelevant as we're paying them to do nothing anyway. I'm sure we could've taken 2 rookies on small contracts.

 

[Topkent]

actually if its "not enough of a competitor" dont tell me coz ill probably lose it

Must have played well in finals at the end of the year so we put a line through him

 

[danster168]

I think the most likely scenario is that we were taking a punt on Harley Reid and there was nothing really that interested us in the later part of the draft so we were happy to give those picks up.

I agree. which I'd why I was saying that if it turns out that 3 or 4 decent enough key forwards got drafted in the range we traded out of then I'm sorry but it's egg on the face of Taylor and Lamb.

 

[Lord Nev]

More annoyed about Tholstrup over Leake. One is good in the air for his size and a beautiful finisher. The other is exactly the sort of player we have already in spades, hard at it, average disposal.

Don't follow the draft super closely these days, but everything I've read about Tholstrup says he's a great user going inside 50 and rated very highly for things like score involvements and goal assists.

Here's one example: "A brilliant creator and finisher, many of Tholstrup’s disposals create opportunities for inside 50 targets, always looking to take the game on with his penetrative kicking."

Koltyn Tholstrup Draft Profile

 

[Lord Nev]

They didn't decide not to take them. They decided to go up the order so that they could make a play for Reid, Duursma or Watson etc. but got no nibbles. It backfired, we got no takers and paid overs to move up.

How are TMac and Ben Brown are going to contribute to the MFC next season? both of them are borderline vfl players. whether we pay them out or not is irrelevant as we're paying them to do nothing anyway. I'm sure we could've taken 2 rookies on small contracts.

I'm tapping out mate. We've had this conversation multiple times now.

Cheers.

 

[Bluelegs]

I agree. which I'd why I was saying that if it turns out that 3 or 4 decent enough key forwards got drafted in the range we traded out of then I'm sorry but it's egg on the face of Taylor and Lamb.

It's only egg on face if they missed out on a decent player.

The whole idea of paying out tmac and brown and get some guys on rookie contracts would be it's own gamble. It would mean we'd have less cap space to work with in future when we might want to recruit a player or Free Agent in a couple of years.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Yeah, get where you're coming from with that tbh. Might depend on the individual case though, like comparing JVR and Jefferson for example.

I like having the majority of the team as competitors, thats fine. But there needs to be a place for the non competitive classy players who's job isn't to worry about pressure and tackling, they are there to cheat and run forward of the play and finish. You need that mix.

 

[Bluelegs]

Don't follow the draft super closely these days, but everything I've read about Tholstrup says he's a great user going inside 50 and rated very highly for things like score involvements and goal assists.

Here's one example: "A brilliant creator and finisher, many of Tholstrup’s disposals create opportunities for inside 50 targets, always looking to take the game on with his penetrative kicking."

Koltyn Tholstrup Draft Profile

I'll admit I haven't seen much of him play but 'penetrative kicking' sounds like code for bombing it long.

 

[Lord Nev]

I'll admit I haven't seen much of him play but 'penetrative kicking' sounds like code for bombing it long.

Maybe you're concentrating on the wrong part of the sentence.

 

[Lord Nev]

I like having the majority of the team as competitors, thats fine. But there needs to be a place for the non competitive classy players who's job isn't to worry about pressure and tackling, they are there to cheat and run forward of the play and finish. You need that mix.

Yeah, agree on that. I feel like the 'competitive beast' thing was a bit of a cure to the Neeld/Bailey years and they've kept it as a mantra and perhaps tried to find perfect players who they think have both competitiveness and skill rather than adding a bit of silk to the mix even if they're not a ferocious tackler.

 

[A11dAtP0w3R]

Don't follow the draft super closely these days, but everything I've read about Tholstrup says he's a great user going inside 50 and rated very highly for things like score involvements and goal assists.

Here's one example: "A brilliant creator and finisher, many of Tholstrup’s disposals create opportunities for inside 50 targets, always looking to take the game on with his penetrative kicking."

Koltyn Tholstrup Draft Profile

I watched all his games available on YouTube and didnt see it at all. There wasn't a single kick that made me think this guy is a great user. I saw Sparrow 2.0 , which is fine in a vacuum, just think we have enough of that kind of player.

 

[Bluelegs]

Maybe you're concentrating on the wrong part of the sentence.

'Creates opportunities for inside 50 targets' is also a bit of a nothing statement. Could mean he laces out bullet passes or just kicks it deep to contests.

I'll refrain from getting too pessimistic until I see him play though.