Mega Thread 2011 Trade Talk (not draft talk)

[whatboutbob]

So..who you looking to nab in this years draft?
I think you should draft a ruckman

I think you'll find quite a few opinions in our 2011 Draft Thread.

 

[Grimreepah]

I agree.

However, I note that 2 of the top 4 sides this year played two genuine ruckmen. A few months ago, I thought that the forward-ruck was the most valuable position on the ground - very few of them and they were becoming an absolute necessity. I still think having a dual position ruck is a massive advantage in terms of your side's structure. But Geelong showed that, if the other 20 blokes in your side are good enough, you can carry two rucks. And West Coast showed that having the right two rucks can actually be an advantage. So I think there's still scope for 2 genuine rucks, but you want to get the right mix.

What I think is gone is the days of the spud 2nd ruck. You aren't going to get gifted games as the 22nd player selected just because you are a ruckman. If you can start at full forward and move into the ruck for 10 mins a quarter, you are going to be a substantially more valuable player for your side.

I think is clear is that football is moving towards more and more multi-position players. Genuine full forwards like Jack Riewoldt are expected to be able to contribute up the ground. Midfielders need to be able to kick goals when forward and perhaps provide some rebound if shifted back. I think that list managers are becoming more aware of the value of multi-position players. It is a reason why I think the Suns paid Brennan big bucks - perfect player for a side who didn't really know where its weaknesses were going to be.

It is also why I think Clark to West Coast would work, even if they have most of the tall roles covered. He is a multi-position player in the truest sense and those types have value on a list.

The ruck/forward offers in game flexibility, but more important I think is the list flexibility. In the past we would have four legitimate ruckmen. Number 3 would replace either Number 1 or Number 2 if they got injured, and he could expect to play a decent amount of footy in a season. Number 4 was also a decent chance of getting at least a handful of games.

These days ruckmen get injured less, and generally speaking Number 3 will only come in if Number 1 gets injured, which means opportunities are a lot more scarce. Broc McCauley would be a case in point. He got the better of McEvoy in his 2nd game, but couldn't build any continuity because he only adds value if he replaces Leuenberger in the ruck.

Ergo it is harder to build ruck depth outside your starting 22, so any opportunity to do so within your starting 22 is a real bonus.

 

[Milk Steak]

So which teams have back up rucks that might look enticing in trade week and would be gettable????????

 

[POBT]

So which teams have back up rucks that might look enticing in trade week and would be gettable????????

Are we looking for ruckmen or forward-rucks? Two different player types these days IMO.

If we are talking about genuine ruckmen, Renouf is one who might be tempted back north. Is clearly the third banana at the Hawks now with Bailey finally getting on the park and Hale having a pretty good end to the season and probably capable of playing 1st ruck in his own right. Roughy is the other forward-ruck in their mix. They also have 2 developing rucks as well, as far as I'm aware. Renouf is surplus to needs but the Hawks have been bitten with ruck depth before so I suspect he's a required player.

Not sure he meets our needs anyway. If we are going to chase a mature ruck, I'd be looking for one who is dirt cheap.

 

[chopperduck]

It is an interesting point Grim. I agree that clubs will have less and less rucks on their list. Having a forward/ruck gives list flexibility to cover either a ruck or a forward as well. Being the 3rd ruck on a list doesn't mean a lot of game time currently, and the 4th string doesn't even come into the equation.

I think clubs in need of a future ruckman will draft high to get the good ones, and develope them as the number 2 ruckman so they get games, but clubs wont spend high draft picks on rucks if they already have 2 good options. Some clubs will trade to get that 2nd ruckman type role, which is what i can see WC doing. Lynch and Cox are getting near the end, Clark gives them great flexibility for cover now, as well as going forward with Nicnat being young.

 

[Loyal Lion]

The ruck/forward offers in game flexibility, but more important I think is the list flexibility. In the past we would have four legitimate ruckmen. Number 3 would replace either Number 1 or Number 2 if they got injured, and he could expect to play a decent amount of footy in a season. Number 4 was also a decent chance of getting at least a handful of games.

These days ruckmen get injured less, and generally speaking Number 3 will only come in if Number 1 gets injured, which means opportunities are a lot more scarce. Broc McCauley would be a case in point. He got the better of McEvoy in his 2nd game, but couldn't build any continuity because he only adds value if he replaces Leuenberger in the ruck.

Ergo it is harder to build ruck depth outside your starting 22, so any opportunity to do so within your starting 22 is a real bonus.

I agree with what you say Grim. Hence that is why McCauley is struggling to get a game with Lueuy so dominant.

I think that it is hard to find a player who can genuinely play ruck & forward equally as effective.

Leuey is a fantastic ruckman, but a pinch hitting forward. You wouldn't imagine that he would kick bags of goals on a consistent basis.

I guess that is why Clark is a rarity. He has shown that he can star in the clark & kick bags of goals...albeit he has been inconsistent as a player.

Tippett is obviously more of a forward & pinch hitting ruck. Could he play as the number 1 ruck week in week out ?

 

[POBT]

Tippett is obviously more of a forward & pinch hitting ruck. Could he play as the number 1 ruck week in week out ?

Yes, IMO. No doubt about it. It is just that key forwards are so hard to find that he has been developed there.

 

[Milk Steak]

All we need to know now is if Tippett wants to come home or not. If he does you could pretty much say that he's ours coz the Crows wouldnt want a guy who doesn't want to be there, clause or no clause. But all this has been covered ad nauseum so

 

[Loyal Lion]

Yes, IMO. No doubt about it. It is just that key forwards are so hard to find that he has been developed there.

Makes him a rare talent then. I can't recall too many players in Fitzroy's or Brisbane's history where a player is equally adept at playing full forward or ruck.

When Matthew Rendell came to Fitzroy from SA in 1981, he played that year at full forward. Gosh he was a tall ff. He did ok too, kicking 46 goals. He became the number one ruck from 82 onwards when Alexander left.

Starting to think, we really need to make Tippett a high priority now.

 

[Dylan12]

So which teams have back up rucks that might look enticing in trade week and would be gettable????????

Apparently Brent Renouf is out...will head to Adelaide as part of the Gunston trade from what I heard from a colleague for whatever that is worth.

 

[Stocka]

Some really good point made, POBT and Grim.

I think having a ruck/forward also assist with player retention (although, obviously the case in point with Clark differs!). If you have a highly talented player who can play both ruck and forward, you should always be able to find a spot for them in the starting line-up and also justifiable pay them a good salary, even if they are not the best individual ruck or best individual forward in the team.

Personally, I would rate Clark as a better overall player than Tippett, given Clark's proven capabilities in the ruck in 2009 (and just his general toughness, skill-level and ability to play four-quarters.... seemingly when he chooses!), however, I have a feeling that Tippett may in fact prove to be a better forward than Clark whilst still having the ability to provide good support in the ruck.

If we get Tippett, I'd hope that improving his rucking ability and capability in general play would become a key aspect in his development.

 

[POBT]

Whilst marginal, I'd have them the other way around. I think Tippett is as good as a tap ruck, not quite as good around the grounds but a substantially more complete tall full forward.

If Clark gets a full season at CHF, I may revise my view. But given Clark has played mostly deep forward or ruck, I think on exposed form I'd have Tippett slightly ahead.

Might be a bit of "grass is greener" in that though.

 

[Stocka]

I think we're yet to see Tippett dominate in general play to the extent that Clark did in 2009, POBT.

Unfortunately, both can have quite bad days in front of the sticks, though!

 

[jackess]

Channel 7 news in Adelaide just said they were told by the Lions that they were very keen on Tippett and were in the process of courting him.

 

[Loyal Lion]

At the risk of upsetting a couple of people, especially Patfullfankez I think it is.

How does this deal sound:

Brisbane:
Gain Tippett
Lose: Pick 8 & Patfull

Maybe the Crows could pay part of Tippett's salary for next year as well.

This is on the strict condition that we secure Pick 16 for Freo for Clark. We may be able to also pick up Ibbotson or Mayne.


My reasoning for the above scenario is that you have to give something good to get something good in return. I don't like giving up Pick 8, but the Crows need to be compensated.

Patfull has been a very serviceable player. At 27 going on, he still has trade currency & is from SA. He would walk straight in the Crows line up at CHB.

I would then tell Acorn & McKeever that CHB is up for grabs & those two would be the main contenders.

With Pick 16, we could try to pick up a KPP backman or a ruckman. We still have other picks in the 20's to go for midfielder's.

One thing for sure is that we should NEVER trade Polec or Redden for Tippett.

 

[Milk Steak]

I would trade Patfull and pick 8 for Tippett, no hesitation. As you said, Patfull has been useful, but is quite easily replaced and hasn't played good footy for a couple of years now. And you know what your getting with Tipps. Consistant goalkicker,young and a decent back up ruck.

 

[Flea_29]

I believe that
Clark > Tippett
However, with Clark out of contract and Tippett still under contract things change (makes things more equal). However, I'm hesitant to get rid of our pick 8 - we could get a really good young player (Will H-Elliott), who I believe could play senior footy next year.
However, if there was a deal that saw us pick up an early pick via Port/Adel from the Clark deal, then I would be more comfortable with things.
Using Patful in the deal is unnecessary - unless of course he wants to return home.
Some on the Adelaide board have got
Tippett for Redden and pick 8 (possibly the WORST trade suggestion I've ever seen). That's because there is no LIONS supporter that would want to lose Redden now and forever.

Redden > Tippett/Clark

 

[Grimreepah]

I rate Tippett ahead of Clark, although that is based on them both playing predominantly as forwards.

Tippett's contested marking will make all our mids look better when they've got something to kick to, although his kicking for goal will probably have us all pulling our hair out.

 

[Milk Steak]

I rate Tippett ahead of Clark, although that is based on them both playing predominantly as forwards.

Tippett's contested marking will make all our mids look better when they've got something to kick to, although his kicking for goal will probably have us all pulling our hair out.

He's no worse a kick at goal than Banfield and the recently departed Luke Power. Those 2 are the only players I know where you still couldn't be confident 15 out, right in front

 

[NoelMugavin]

Id be over the moon if we could get the Clark/Tippet trade happen...no matter how its spliced and diced in the trade make up

it will be interesting if we get anything for Luke Power...lets hope so..

my secret wish is that the lions trade James Hawksley..hopefully him being played during the last few games will add to his currency....maybe we can trade him for a few old sherrins at the very least

 

[JasRulz63]

Tippett's contested marking will make all our mids look better when they've got something to kick to, although his kicking for goal will probably have us all pulling our hair out.

We should get whoever worked with Mitch to get his kicking more consistent to work with Tippett (provided he comes to the Lions that is )

 

[jackess]

If Brisbane give more for Tippett than they get for Clark I will be dissapointed. I rate Clark higher for his versatility, athleticism and fitness. Back in his home state I think Clark will find the aggression he had in 09.

 

[Groo2]

If Brisbane give more for Tippett than they get for Clark I will be dissapointed.

Reminds me of when Fitzroy lost A Lynch to the bears. Were desperate for a key forward and ended up paying WAY over the odds for this replacement. Try mentioning the name Jeff Hogg to an old royboy and check out the response.

 

[pauldrc]

He's no worse a kick at goal than Banfield and the recently departed Luke Power. Those 2 are the only players I know where you still couldn't be confident 15 out, right in front

Stiller....

 

[Dylan12]

For those who have seen a fair bit of Tippett...what does he offer? I seem to recall, and I very may well be wrong, but does he only play across the full forward line or he is more versatile than I am giving credit? Furthermore, how much time does he spend in the ruck, if at all?

I will say, I am getting excited at the prospect of Brown, Tippett and Cornelius all playing in the forward line, although with Brown in his twilight years and more thank likely playing deep forward, I hope my fears can be allevaited with the knowledge that Tippett can play further afield.