1st Test Border Gavaskar Trophy November 22-26 1350hrs @ Perth Stadium

[Howard Littlejohn]

What I would like to know is how did Australian cricket find itself in a position from the 90's when there was such a wealth of great players waiting the wings, to now where there is basically nothing but unimpressive options?

The problems started in that era really, imo, or very shortly after. CA devalued the Shield at around that point.
Even during Ponting's captaincy there were concerns about players getting into the Test squad without the (then normal and expected) technical and mental background. Playing loose and unable or unwilling to dig in for the tough periods. Players were getting to the squad about as prepared as prior generations had been as rookies in Shield squads.

The focus on getting players into Australian setups, rather than winning the Shield, by the states has resulted in pushing youth into the Shield rather than picking the top available players. This in turn, decreases the quality of the Shield yet again - after the rarity of seeing Test players playing Shield cricket. And sometimes sees those players promoted ahead of being ready, fail, discarded in favour of the next flavour of the month who fails ..... getting dropped, working on your game, trying to come back stronger, maybe multiple times, is no longer part of the process.

At Shield, but not Test, level some eye on project players is fine but the teams need to mostly be strongest available. The worry is that even with a weakened Shield, there are no real standouts who can stay consistent over a couple of seasons. Or they get pulled out of the Shield and put into white ball teams (the calendar is really very wrong from a cricket perspective, but impossible to change much from a financial perspective, and CA has to compete with much wealthier boards).

The seeds were planted before T20 took over, which will just make things worse as that is now the focus of CA and some states. Some of those changes are quite recent.

And the huge pay on offer of sports with basically no international component, Rugby League and Australian Football, make it that much more difficult for cricket to draw the first preference of multi-talented sportspeople. If you aren't one of the chosen ones, you're far more likely to be able earn 200k+ among the 800 or so male AFL listed players than 100k in the 90 or so male professional cricketers. One reason why T20 is such a focus, I guess.

 

[Lunchtime]

I don't know if I'd call one other Test standard guy extreme depth. Who was there other than MacGill? Peter McIntyre?

We had Shane Warne who was a freak. We then had Stuart MacGill. We also had Peter McIintyre who you mentioned and then we also had Brad Hogg. So in the 1990s through to the early/mid 2000s...we had four wrist spinners in Australian. Clearly Warney was number 1...world class bowler but he was a freak. MacGill was also a world class bowler but below Warne. McIntyre and Hogg couldn't get look ins. Both played Test cricket towards the back end of their career but Hogg did very well in ODIs for Australia. Hogg was also a handy lower order batsman as well.

But nowdays and the past decade and a bit...there hasn't been the depth there in Australian cricket in regards to the spinners. Lyon has done well for sure but there's been little pressure on him..no one below him in Sheffield Shield cricket in Australia to apply pressure.

 

[Marstermind]

I don't know if I'd call one other Test standard guy extreme depth. Who was there other than MacGill? Peter McIntyre?

Tim May went alright

 

[Lunchtime]

The problems started in that era really, imo, or very shortly after. CA devalued the Shield at around that point.
Even during Ponting's captaincy there were concerns about players getting into the Test squad without the (then normal and expected) technical and mental background. Playing loose and unable or unwilling to dig in for the tough periods. Players were getting to the squad about as prepared as prior generations had been as rookies in Shield squads.

The focus on getting players into Australian setups, rather than winning the Shield, by the states has resulted in pushing youth into the Shield rather than picking the top available players. This in turn, decreases the quality of the Shield yet again - after the rarity of seeing Test players playing Shield cricket. And sometimes sees those players promoted ahead of being ready, fail, discarded in favour of the next flavour of the month who fails ..... getting dropped, working on your game, trying to come back stronger, maybe multiple times, is no longer part of the process.

At Shield, but not Test, level some eye on project players is fine but the teams need to mostly be strongest available. The worry is that even with a weakened Shield, there are no real standouts who can stay consistent over a couple of seasons. Or they get pulled out of the Shield and put into white ball teams (the calendar is really very wrong from a cricket perspective, but impossible to change much from a financial perspective, and CA has to compete with much wealthier boards).

The seeds were planted before T20 took over, which will just make things worse as that is now the focus of CA and some states. Some of those changes are quite recent.

And the huge pay on offer of sports with basically no international component, Rugby League and Australian Football, make it that much more difficult for cricket to draw the first preference of multi-talented sportspeople. If you aren't one of the chosen ones, you're far more likely to be able earn 200k+ among the 800 or so male AFL listed players than 100k in the 90 or so male professional cricketers. One reason why T20 is such a focus, I guess.

Sheffield Shield was at its best when the international players played in it. It raised the standard of First-Class cricket (red ball cricket) in Australia.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

I don't know if I'd call one other Test standard guy extreme depth. Who was there other than MacGill? Peter McIntyre?

Tim May played a lot with Warne. Definitely Test standard as a finger spinner.
Australia has rarely been blessed with a bunch of high quality spinners at once.

 

[Lunchtime]

Tim May played a lot with Warne. Definitely Test standard as a finger spinner.
Australia has rarely been blessed with a bunch of high quality spinners at once.

And that period I highlighted above the 1990s through to the early/mid 2000s we had depth. It was strong.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Sheffield Shield was at its best when the international players played in it. It raised the standard of First-Class cricket (red ball cricket) in Australia.

The never ending white ball internationals put that to bed in the 1990s, from memory Ponting had a 10 years stretch of one FC game and 2 ListA games for Tasmania.
The rotation and rest policies, and splitting the domestic summer with the BBL, just make that harder again. That's what I was talking about with the calendar.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

And that period I highlighted above the 1990s through to the early/mid 2000s we had depth. It was strong.

Players who started their careers i that time are probably the last who played in that older system. And also had the academy in its older form, though I do wonder if the impact of that was over-rated at times.

Or maybe its just that I'm old and looking to the good old days, where I would I walk to a Shield game with an onion tied to my belt as was the style at the time .......

 

[PhatBoy]

If you remove his 334* which was clearly the exception, not the rule, for the last 6* years of his career Taylor averaged sub 35. Prior to that he averaged 62.

Punter 38 over his last 4 compared to 61 prior.

We've got a long history of giving blokes years based on reputation rather than output. And in the past we've had other guns to carry them.

We don't have that now.

*5 years + 1 test in 1999.

Sorry to burst your bubble and apologies if someone has already pointed this out but this is not correct.

You’re saying that prior to 1994-ish, Mark Taylor averaged 62?



Taylor’s average peaked at a tad below 70 in 1989/90, and had dropped to below 50 by 1992.

 

[PhatBoy]

I don't know if I'd call one other Test standard guy extreme depth. Who was there other than MacGill? Peter McIntyre?

Steve Storey

 

[Westend]

morning everyone

Just want the lads today to fight . Show some back bone some positive intent . Be aggressive and stop this meek crap which we saw yesterday

 

[Borisdog]

morning everyone

Just want the lads today to fight . Show some back bone some positive intent . Be aggressive and stop this meek crap which we saw yesterday

Well that's the thing isn't it. There has definitely been the inclination for a while with the Australian side to go soft a bit too early.

It'd be a comeback for the ages to win this one from here but you can set the tone and show the opposition that you're going to keep at it. 1 nil down in a 5 test series is a long way from dead. But slinking around like you don't have any answer is getting toward dead.

There needs to be much more spine shown for the rest of this game. There really didn't look like a great deal of "pride" being shown to me. Perhaps not the right word but they just looked like a kicked dog to me.

There's no one in this side with any "mongrel"

 

[boncer34]

Sorry to burst your bubble and apologies if someone has already pointed this out but this is not correct.

You’re saying that prior to 1994-ish, Mark Taylor averaged 62?



Taylor’s average peaked at a tad below 70 in 1989/90, and had dropped to below 50 by 1992.

Must've added something up wrong. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Cainozz]

Hope the bowlers got some good rest last night because it’s going to be a long day in the field if they’re not switched on.

If we can snare 2-3 wickets before lunch and somehow have them all out around tea, it would mean we would be chasing close to 400. The sun will bake down today so hopefully that flattens the pitch out for when we bat.

That’s best case scenario though

 

[PhatBoy]

Must've added something up wrong. Thanks for the correction.

Easiest way to check someone’s average at a particular point in their career is on Howstat and just go to an innings by innings list. It has their cumulative average listed aa you go.

 

[Thrillthorpe7]

Thought Andrew McDonald spoke well last night and gave some good perspective on the match situation, worth the listen before play today.

 

[NYRB]

Given the strict security measures, this would never be allowed to happen at the SCG:

 

[swingdog]

Given the strict security measures, this would never be allowed to happen at the SCG:

Yeah, it was nice to be at a ground without countless police as it is at the MCG.

 

[yabsy]

Agree with most of that except Head got a hundred against the Windies. He is due though.

Not sure we can say we know we will get a solid innings out of Green. He has a fair way to go but at least has youth on his side.

I don't mind Marsh at 6 but I expect his body might let him down again soon.

Head's averaged 21 since the start of last summer...The lowest of all the top 7...He's more than due.

On Redmi Note 8 Pro using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Jamurp]

Not even sure we bowled particularly badly, India just batted so well on a flatter deck, just have no runs to work with as our batters are so out of sorts.

As others have said, there’s just barely anyone coming through to replace, decent young bowling stocks, but batting looks thin.

 

[Borisdog]

Thought Andrew McDonald spoke well last night and gave some good perspective on the match situation, worth the listen before play today.

All most people need to know about the match situation is the scoreboard and what day it was.

However thanks for the tip, I'll have a look. I'll have to make sure I'm sober though as I suspect I might disagree a tad with Ronnie.

One bit I did read was "Management into the second new ball and making sure we've got the energy for that"

If they're buggered after 23 overs we're in real strife Ronnie. And I suspect the "Management" in the month or so before the game might've been the issue if that's the case.

Here's a tip Ronnie - How about we think about bowling them out BEFORE the second new ball. A big ask I know, but maybe we don't tell the world our resignation straight up. Everyone can see realistically that we're highly likely to get to the second new ball but let's not roll over the day before huh?

I dead set hate the word "management" when it comes to most things sport.
I ****ing heard enough of it in my working life.

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

Given the strict security measures, this would never be allowed to happen at the SCG:

It wouldn't be allowed at Optus either.

 

[celestial]

Wouldn't be surprised if india bat the day out. They don't need to score quickly, their main aim will be to keep their wicket and pummel australia psychologically.

First hour will tell us exactly how this day is going to go. Ideally we knock over 3-4 .

 

[DaRick]

This is Melbourne 2010 levels of depressing.

 

[big_e]

If anyone is cooked it is Bison. He has had about the largest decline in run scoring in past 12 months than any one, perhaps other than Trav. So if anyone is jettisoned it has to be that pair. I'd bring in Webster or Hardie for Marsh and Inglis for Head.

WTAF? Mitch Marsh is Australia's best performed batter in the period you talk about. See the stats below:

Since the start of last summer
Khawaja - 41, 90, 42, 0, 47, 0, 45, 9*, 75, 10, 33, 28, 16, 11, 8 - Average 32.5.
Out 23 times since his last century with 5 fifties and 4 single digit scores in that. Long way to go, but if Australia lose this series and Uzzie maintains an average of 32, as the oldest bloke in the team he'll be finished.

Labuschagne - 4, 60, 62*, 10, 1*, 3, 5, 1, 2, 90, 6, 2 - Average 24.6
Out 15 times since his last century with 4 fifties and 9 single digit scores in that. Passed 10 once in his last 9 completed digs and looks terrible. Would have to be close to being dropped now. Batting median score of just 5.5 in this time.

Smith - 31, 45, 26, 50, 38, 4*, 12, 11*, 6, 91*, 31, 0, 11, 9, 0 - Average 30.4
Out 19 times since his last century with 4 fifties and 5 single digit scores in that. Highlighted to the selectors that he was struggling so moved top open. When that changed nothing he's got nowhere to hide anymore. Like Ponting and Hayden when they hit around Smith's age, it looks like his eye has gone. The unbeaten 91 sure helps that average.

Head - 40, 14, 17, 0, 10, 119, 0, 0 , 1, 29, 21, 18, 11 - Average 21.5
He is most definitely out of form with the worst average of all Australian batters since the start of last summer even with the only century. That century is his only score over 50 in his last 17 innings, with six sub 10 scores. Median of 17.

Marsh - 90, 63*, 41, 96, 54, 5, 21, 10, 40, 0, 0, 80, 6 - Average 42.2
The much maligned Marsh is actually the best Aussie batter in the last 10 months. 16 innings since his last century, but 6 fifties. Five sub 10 scores - 3 in the last 4 innings. But good numbers given how often he comes in at 4 for not-much. Wouldn't have won in Melbourne or Christchurch without him.

Carey - 34, 4, 53, 38, 15, 65, 2, 10, 3, 14, 98*, 19* - Average 35.5
Good numbers for a number 7 keeper. Like Marsh, he's had to come in at 5 for too few too often. 26 dismissals since his only century and his lack of a really big score so far in his career is the only knock on his batting.

You could argue that none of the top 5 are locks for the Ashes with McSweeney obviously having not cemented a spot. Green comes back and one of Labuschagne and Smith has to go. But as he's like-for-like with Marsh the selectors would be stupid enough to ditch him. Head won't be dropped, but his form is yuck and he can't keep that up and not be under pressure. Got a ripping ball yesterday, but his feet were nowhere and he gave himself no chance.