Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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rbartlett said:
Rodgers mentioned in passing on email that he think he has solved the Norman Brookes query.
So I assume he will contact whoever raised that with him and they can inform the board.
Click to expand...

I've had a reply earlier today via Michael Lovett that Col Hutchinson and Stephen Rodgers had checked on Brookes and agree that Norman did not play any games for St Kilda in the VFL at all.

They believe that it was his brother Harold who played the two games in 1898 previously credited to Norman.

Given the research which was published in this thread a few weeks ago, I'm not completely convinced that Brooks/Brookes played a second game so more needs to be found I reckon.
 
the croucher said:
I've had a reply earlier today via Michael Lovett that Col Hutchinson and Stephen Rodgers had checked on Brookes and agree that Norman did not play any games for St Kilda in the VFL at all.

They believe that it was his brother Harold who played the two games in 1898 previously credited to Norman.

Given the research which was published in this thread a few weeks ago, I'm not completely convinced that Brooks/Brookes played a second game so more needs to be found I reckon.
Click to expand...
I see they've even made this one 'public'!:- http://www.afl.com.au/afl-hq/afl-season-guide-updates

AFL Record Season 2016 Updates

Page 1132: Under the heading ‘AFL Identities Who Have Excelled In Other Sports’, an entry under ‘Various Sports’ is incorrect. For many years it had been recorded that former Wimbledon and Australian singles champion Norman Brookes had played two games for St Kilda in 1898. It has been discovered it was his brother Harold who played those two games, not Norman
 
rbartlett said:
Couple of other stats missing

1922 Reserves
http://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=1922+Reserves
Rd 1 - vs Coll- May 6 - missing goalkickers
Rd 9 vs StKilda - July 1 - missing goalkickers
Rd 10 vs Collingwood - July 15 - missing goalkickers
Rd 4 vs Geelong, Rd 5 vs Essendon, Rd 7 vs Leopold, Rd 11 vs Melb - all missing secondary goalkickers (i have main goalkicker of each match)
Click to expand...
Goalkickers (and best players) are here. http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205775170
 

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35Daicos said:
The official records have Gordon Dangerfield in the round 6 1912 St Kilda team that played Carlton, but it looks extremely likely that he didn't play, and that Alex McKenzie took his place. http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1912/031519120601.html

Rounds 6 & 7 were played on the Saturday 1 June and Monday 3 June, respectively. The Argus (Mon 3 June 1912) said "St. Kilda were handicapped on their back lines owing to Hattam and Dangerfield being down with influenza. They played McKenzie, and Lynch from Trentham." http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11680661

The Australasian (8 June) says of the rd. 6 game "St. Kilda, however, were not so happily circumstanced, as two of their cracks in Dangerfield and Hattam had succumbed to influenza." http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/143332928

The Age (Tues 4 June) says of the rd. 7 game "and Hattam, Dangerfield, Hart, Baird, Best and Anderson (the last two appearing for the first time) taking the places of Morrisey, Nehill (both hurt), Jory, Cave, Martin and McKenzie with St. Kilda." http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197373231/18569107

The Argus (Friday 7 June) says (referring to the rd. 8 game) "and Dangerfield, Morrissey and Nehill have recovered and will be available to-morrow."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11681739

This looks pretty definite to me, so unless someone can find fault with it, I'll send an email to the 'authorities' sometime over the next few days. With a bit of luck I'll get a response as quick as Rhett did!
Click to expand...
I've had a response from Col Hutchinson already regarding this one, and the suggested alterations have been made:-

Gentlemen,

Steve Rodgers and I agree that the amendments mentioned below need to be made.
Gordon Dangerfield is now credited with 158 career League matches and Alex MacKenzie is acknowledged as playing 11.

Rob,
Thanks for drawing our attention to the situation.

Regards
Col

I've forwarded the email to AFL Tables and Footy Works. AustralianFootball.com seems to have already been notified of the change.
 
I suppose I should pay attention to this thread, I've really flatlined during the off season. Thanks to those who have prodded me via email.

As surmised earlier, I took numbers from the old AFL site, it was rife with same numberers. I can make a list of instances where two players appear to have the same number, it will be extensive I fear.
 
Hello.
I'm trying to fill in the missing gaps of 'acting captains for Richmond'.
So if anyone ever comes across who captained Richmond in these games, feel free to drop a reply.
In some of these cases, I havent found who the vice captain was for that season, which would probably solve who captained some of these games when the captain was out.

1918 Rd 12-13 (its either William Thomas or Sid Reeves)
1949 Rd 12-13, 15-17
1963 Rd 10
1968 Rd 5, 16
1969 Rd 10
1972 Rd 12 (its not Hart, Bourke, Bartlett)
1983 Rd 18 (I believe coach Bourke did not appoint a vice captain this season)
1990 Rd 5, 19
1992 Rd 8, 10-12
1993 Rd 1
1994 Rd 20 21-23 (its either Knights or Gale)
1995 Rd 6 -PF (its either Knights of Gale, it may have changed each week?)
1996 Rd 1-2, 15-22 (its either Knights of Gale, it may have changed each week?)
1998 Rd 3-4
2004 Rd 8, 16-17

http://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=Senior+Captains

Regards
 
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rbartlett said:
1994 Rd 20 -23 (its either Knights or Gale)
Click to expand...
I have the The Herald Sun liftouts from 94, says Knights as acting captain in RD20. It says vice-captain in R22, but I suppose could be referring to the season in general rather than the game itself. Gale is mentioned a few times without comment.
 
*Paul* said:
I have the The Herald Sun liftouts from 94, says Knights as acting captain in RD20. It says vice-captain in R22, but I suppose could be referring to the season in general rather than the game itself. Gale is mentioned a few times without comment.
Click to expand...

Thanks Paul. I'll add Knights to Rd 20
From memory Gale and Knights were joint vice captains at that point, it is possible Gale captained rd 22 while Knights v/c.
 
rbartlett said:
Hello.
I'm trying to fill in the missing gaps of 'acting captains for Richmond'.
So if anyone ever comes across who captained Richmond in these games, feel free to drop a reply.
In some of these cases, I havent found who the vice captain was for that season, which would probably solve who captained some of these games when the captain was out.

1918 Rd 12-13 (its either William Thomas or Sid Reeves)
1949 Rd 12-13, 15-17


Regards
Click to expand...
Have you got approx. dates for these 2?
 
the croucher said:
I've had a reply earlier today via Michael Lovett that Col Hutchinson and Stephen Rodgers had checked on Brookes and agree that Norman did not play any games for St Kilda in the VFL at all.

They believe that it was his brother Harold who played the two games in 1898 previously credited to Norman.

Given the research which was published in this thread a few weeks ago, I'm not completely convinced that Brooks/Brookes played a second game so more needs to be found I reckon.
Click to expand...

I've nothing more of this, so remain unconvinced that Harold Brookes played for St Kilda. Yes, there is a Brooks/Brookes listed as kicking two goals in the match v Carlton on 18 June 1898:
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1898/031518980618.html
but I've see no evidence cited to confirm that it is Harold.

As noted earlier in this thread, evidence suggests that no player named Brookes played for St Kilda on 25 June 1898:
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1898/111518980625.html
and the missing player is Billy Beggs:
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/B/Billy_Beggs.html

see earlier discussion
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...fficial-records.1089761/page-16#post-43065962
 
35Daicos said:
I've had a response from Col Hutchinson already regarding this one, and the suggested alterations have been made:-

Gentlemen,

Steve Rodgers and I agree that the amendments mentioned below need to be made.
Gordon Dangerfield is now credited with 158 career League matches and Alex MacKenzie is acknowledged as playing 11.

Rob,
Thanks for drawing our attention to the situation.

Regards
Col

I've forwarded the email to AFL Tables and Footy Works. AustralianFootball.com seems to have already been notified of the change.
Click to expand...


Thanks 'Daics'

I am following the thread and trying to keep on top of the changes being made to the record. The various historical errors that have been uncovered here are a great boon for all of us who have an interest in accurate footy history and records. Well done guys.
 

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rbartlett said:
Hello.
I'm trying to fill in the missing gaps of 'acting captains for Richmond'.
So if anyone ever comes across who captained Richmond in these games, feel free to drop a reply.
In some of these cases, I havent found who the vice captain was for that season, which would probably solve who captained some of these games when the captain was out.

1918 Rd 12-13 (its either William Thomas or Sid Reeves)
1949 Rd 12-13, 15-17
1963 Rd 10
1968 Rd 5, 16
1969 Rd 10
1972 Rd 12 (its not Hart, Bourke, Bartlett)
1983 Rd 18 (I believe coach Bourke did not appoint a vice captain this season)
1990 Rd 5, 19
1992 Rd 8, 10-12
1993 Rd 1
1994 Rd 20 21-23 (its either Knights or Gale)
1995 Rd 6 -PF (its either Knights of Gale, it may have changed each week?)
1996 Rd 1-2, 15-22 (its either Knights of Gale, it may have changed each week?)
1998 Rd 3-4
2004 Rd 8, 16-17

http://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=Senior+Captains

Regards
Click to expand...

All acting captains have been found. Thanks to those who helped. Majority of missing were provided by Bill Meaklim.
HOWEVER - the sole one we are unsure of is Rd 12 (27th July) Rd 13 (3 Aug) 1918. It's either William Thomas or Sid Reeves.
If anyone comes across those answers, feel free to post here.
 
rbartlett said:
All acting captains have been found. Thanks to those who helped. Majority of missing were provided by Bill Meaklim.
HOWEVER - the sole one we are unsure of is Rd 12 (27th July) Rd 13 (3 Aug) 1918. It's either William Thomas or Sid Reeves.
If anyone comes across those answers, feel free to post here.
Click to expand...
According to Trove via the Richmond Guardian ' ''Son'' Thomas , in the absence of Hall led the side out '' for the 27th July match. Reading it seems to be a match report from the previous week with this weeks side in it. So Aug 3 has match report of July 27


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93809224

There was no mention of Thomas in the following week , but neither was there no mention in the above piece of a change in Captaincy to Reeves. You may wish for more evidence ( and I can understand that) or in the genealogy game take the lack of detail as continued detail :D
 
GreyCrow said:
According to Trove via the Richmond Guardian ' ''Son'' Thomas , in the absence of Hall led the side out '' for the 27th July match. Reading it seems to be a match report from the previous week with this weeks side in it. So Aug 3 has match report of July 27


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93809224

There was no mention of Thomas in the following week , but neither was there no mention in the above piece of a change in Captaincy to Reeves. You may wish for more evidence ( and I can understand that) or in the genealogy game take the lack of detail as continued detail :D
Click to expand...

Thanks GreyCrow.
I'm comfortable to put Thomas as Rd 12 captain therefore.
And by logic he probably was the Rd 13 captain, but I'll pencil him in and keep doing a search.

Thanks again
Rhett
 
If we can go further back, there is only a small amount of missing Richmond captains from the VFA

1885 27 June vs Sth Melb.
Did George Smith play this game for Richmond? (he was selected captain for the season). If he didn't then acting captain will be Tom Graham, who we know played this game

1885 25 July vs Essendon
Did George Smith play this game for Richmond? (he was selected captain for the season). If he didn't then acting captain will be Tom Graham, who we know played this game
Seems like Smith played, as the outs for Richmond in The Age were 'Hill and Ryan', although Richmond did play one man short

1885 26 September vs Sth Melb.
Did George Smith play this game for Richmond? (he was selected captain for the season). If he didn't then acting captain will be Tom Graham, who we know played this game

1890 27 Sept vs Sth Melb.
E 'Ned' Burwood was captain all that season. However unsure if he played this day. If we can find that he did, then we know he was captain. If he didn't play that day and T Davies (or T Davies) did (he was vice captain all year), we know he was acting captain. I know Richmond had some late changes cause old George Smith, and Alf Hill came into the side at the last minute.But who did they replace. It appears in the team listing on the Friday Burwood is first named. (but Smith and Hill aren't obviously)

1898 21 May vs Port
Did William Clarke play this game ? (He was selected captain for the season) . If not, who did?

1898 25 June vs Brunswick
Did William Clarke play this game ? (He was selected captain for the season). If not, who did?

1898 9 July vs Brunswick
Did William Clarke play this game ? (He was selected captain for the season). If not, who did?

1898 13 August vs Footscray
Did William Clarke play this game ? (He was selected captain for the season). If not, who did?
 
Last edited:
rbartlett said:
If we can go further back, there is only a small amount of missing Richmond captains from the VFA
Click to expand...



1885 25 July vs Essendon
Did George Smith play this game for Richmond? (he was selected captain for the season). If he didn't then acting captain will be Tom Graham, who we know played this game
Click to expand...
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article191197505

Smith is named

1885 26 September vs Sth Melb.
Did George Smith play this game for Richmond? (he was selected captain for the season). If he didn't then acting captain will be Tom Graham, who we know played this game
Click to expand...
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6096829

There is a Smith named
 
GreyCrow said:
According to Trove via the Richmond Guardian ' ''Son'' Thomas , in the absence of Hall led the side out '' for the 27th July match. Reading it seems to be a match report from the previous week with this weeks side in it. So Aug 3 has match report of July 27

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93809224

There was no mention of Thomas in the following week , but neither was there no mention in the above piece of a change in Captaincy to Reeves. You may wish for more evidence ( and I can understand that) or in the genealogy game take the lack of detail as continued detail :D
Click to expand...
rbartlett said:
Thanks GreyCrow.
I'm comfortable to put Thomas as Rd 12 captain therefore.
Click to expand...
From the Football Record rd. 13 1918 (page 10):- Thomas went up forward, and there, as captain for the day, set an example to the team.

This is referring to the round 12 game, of course.
 
Round 5 — 4 Jun 1898: Carlton v Collingwood: Official record has Alf Moore of Carlton making his debut and Tommy Kinman being excluded from the team.

However in the Argus report for Round 6 — 11 Jun 1898: Fitzroy v Carlton

“Sharkey, Meadowcroft, Kinman, and Breese were away from the Carlton team, D. Pender and Peter Williams making their reappearance together with Dohrman (late of Collingwood) and Moore, of whom the Carlton executive hoped great things owing to his having played with Norwood (S.A.), but before the day was out they expressed the wish that he had stayed there”

It seems likely that Kinman rather than Moore played in Rd 5. Neither are named in any Rd 5 report that I can find but both are named in the squad in The Herald the day before (3 Jun) including a note that Moore had been granted a permit.
 
There seems to be a very good chance that Jerry McGrath played for St Kilda (vs. Collingwood) in the 1900 Sectional Round 1 game. He's not named in the official line-up but both The Argus and The Age mention him:-

The kicking in of Proudfoot and M'Grath was one of the features of the game.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9553401/322919

The kicking off of Proudfoot for Collingwood and of M'Grath for St. Kilda was about the most notice-able feature of the play.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190050312

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1900/041519000825.html

McGrath was in the team for the following week's game, but I haven't seen any mention of him regarding ins and outs. I think I've looked in all the more obvious places trying to find more on this but have been unsuccessful. As for who he might have replaced in the "official" team (for Sectional Round 1), I've seen no clues on that either, so not an easy one to prove at this stage. If anyone feels like having a look or has anything to offer, feel free to do so.
 
The records show that while Les Rippon played 17 games for Melbourne in 1900, the only games his brother Harold played for the club were in 1898. At least as far as the 1900 Round 1 game is concerned Harold Rippon seems to have played a game that has been credited to brother Les:-
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1900/111519000505.html

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190064270 (The Age 7 May 1900 - referring to Rd. 1 game):- "while L. Rippon was absent through a cold" and "H. H. Rippon, whom the Caulfield players look upon as one of their cracks, reap-peared in the Melbourne team for the first time since 1898."

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198527556 (The Leader 12 May 1900 - referring to Rd. 1 game):- "With Moysey, Herring, Woods and L. Rippon away through various causes" and "H. H. Rippon, who in the Caulfield team has always enjoyed a high reputation for cleverness, also played for Melbourne"

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9541049 (The Argus 14 May - referring to Rd. 2 game):- "Melbourne had Leith, Lewis, L. Rippon, Moriarty and Parkin in, instead of Gardner and Bowe (injured), H. Rippon, Pirrie and McGuigan."

I haven't looked any further at this stage but the following makes me suspicious that H. Rippon may have played again that year:-
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9546609 (The Argus 2 July 1900):- "Melbourne were without McLelland, Parkin and H. Rippon" - L. Rippon is mentioned as having played (he's in the official lineup).

Incidentally, it's rather fascinating to read that the result of the round one clash was only decided (in St Kilda's favour) by the League after an inquiry.

Supermercado
 

Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records


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