Review Round 15, 2015 - Brisbane Lions vs Sydney

[jackess]

One good way for McStay to learn how to lead and read the ball as a forward would be to play down back. I think given our forward options though we should stick with him as a forward for the rest of the season and re-evaluate in the post season.

 

[cotter101]

Last three weeks have been really impressive despite losing in all of those games. Younger players making mistakes as the game wears on in the last qtr is expected. Doesn't help when we don't have a decent target to be kicking to. Last three weeks we've averaged 44.6 clearances, 50 I50's, 7.3 marks I50, 143.3 contested possessions and 78 tackles against sides that rank 1st, 3rd and 9th.

I know I'm only comparing 3 weeks but the Fremantle average 42.9 clearances over the season(the best in the comp). 143.3 contested possessions would place us second in the competition only behind Adelaide who average 145.2. 50 inside fifties would place us 8th in the comp, 78 tackles would have us 1st, next best in 72.8.

Think that really lets us down is marks inside 50. We've average 7 which would place us last in the afl by over 2 marks game.

Just thought it would be interesting to look at. The effort has really lifted and the stats reflect it. Our senior players are finding form again. As a member, I've been very happy the last 3 weeks. We still had 10 kids running around with under 50 games experience.

We've got Melbourne, North, Geelong, Gold Coast, Carlton, Adelaide, Hawks and the Dogs in the last 8 rounds. I'd say 5 or 6 of those are very winnable on current form.

 

[matwt73]

I think Robbo was far from our worst. His execution let him down a few times, but I think that was a refelction on having no targets/options and at times trying to be too creative. A few years ago, Pearce Hanley was trying to take the game on and at times being found out. Whilst i don't think Robbo has the skill of Pearce, and needs to learn his limitations, you won't learn those without pushing them.

Merret, immediately added to our back line. Sauce and Jase covering the two main targets between them leaves me so much more comfortable than Clarke and Andrews, or Clarke and Gardiner. I know a few had expressed some concern about Clarke recently. I think yesterday showed how his poorer performances may have been attributable to having to do too much responsibility wise.

I thought Sam Mayes settled into the game well and I hope he can hold his spot.

 

[karix]

One good way for McStay to learn how to lead and read the ball as a forward would be to play down back. I think given our forward options though we should stick with him as a forward for the rest of the season and re-evaluate in the post season.

I'm not so sure about this. I think he needs to learn to read our play coming out of defence better, and how to time his lead(s) based on that. Being led to the ball by a forward who is reading another teams play out of defence won't really help very much with that particular skill set.

I know people see a few games with low impact and think 'he's not progressing let's mix it up', but with his level of inexperience he would be learning new aspects of his trade all the time, probably more so from the opportunities he misses than the ones he gets. The truth is there are some skills you can only develop by playing your position on game day.

Playing other positions can add more strings to your bow, and add an extra dimension to your skill set, but thinking you can learn to be a forward by playing defence is akin to thinking you can learn to write left handed by practicing with your right hand. Yes it helps, and it's better than nothing, but ultimately you need to write with your left hand as much as possible to become good at it.

 

[carnthemlions]

Hmmm.. I actually kinder disagree with parts of that. Did you watch the pies vs port game? It was electrifying football. We are playing what I would describe as just a rolling scrum, we are pretty much blanketing the entire game and have been for the last month. It actually has led to 'terrible' almost unwatchable games of football, I
Kinder hope this isn't the 'brand' of sustainable footy we are after. Yes we move the ball through the middle with some flare for periods of the game, but more often than not we just bomb the ball aimlessly to no one up the wing because all our players are back and are not running back the other way hard enough, and we have no forward structure as a result.

This sort of footy we are playing is preservation footy of the highest order and leads to terrible games, but I'm cool with it, as if we just 'play', we lose by 80 points.

When teams like Sydney get caught in the scrum, which we are doing well, and should be commended for, I still think (whilst we did force them to a degree) they were kinder just doing enough to win. I agree a 20 point win was not what they had in mind, but Longmire didn't even have a bad word to say, just said "sometimes you just have to win" - I feel there was an element of pure coasting going on.

It's not to take anything away from our boys, I am damn proud - it's just If anyone thinks the dockers or the swans don't have 2-3-4-5 levels more of intensity they could have gone to earlier in the game then they are kidding themselves. Longmire and Lyon are kings of looking ahead to September and In a way, unfortunately, we are probley looked at as the virtual bye ATM.

Would you say Hawthorn play exciting football? I wouldn't. It still works pretty well though- although I was actually referring to the way we play without the ball.
If Sydney want to win a premiership with this side, they need to score enough points to beat Hawthorn. They should've expected to win by 60+ and they struggled to put us away at all. They only scored 70 points, and they could quite easily have lost. If Sydney keep that up, they're going to coast their way to another grand final loss at best. Freo would be lucky to even make it that far.

 

[jackess]

I'm not so sure about this. I think he needs to learn to read our play coming out of defence better, and how to time his lead(s) based on that. Being led to the ball by a forward who is reading another teams play out of defence won't really help very much with that particular skill set.

I know people see a few games with low impact and think 'he's not progressing let's mix it up', but with his level of inexperience he would be learning new aspects of his trade all the time, probably more so from the opportunities he misses than the ones he gets. The truth is there are some skills you can only develop by playing your position on game day.

Playing other positions can add more strings to your bow, and add an extra dimension to your skill set, but thinking you can learn to be a forward by playing defence is akin to thinking you can learn to write left handed by practicing with your right hand. Yes it helps, and it's better than nothing, but ultimately you need to write with your left hand as much as possible to become good at it.

He's been playing forward for 15 games though and I'm not sure he's really improving as much as you'd like to see. As I said give him the rest of the season but we'll see what happens in the trade period and draft and re-evaluate where he sits in our squad.

Playing down back on the best key forwards is a pretty common and successful method of learning how to play as a key forward unless you are a freak like Jeremy Cameron and can do it from your first game.

 

[carnthemlions]

I'm not so sure about this. I think he needs to learn to read our play coming out of defence better, and how to time his lead(s) based on that. Being led to the ball by a forward who is reading another teams play out of defence won't really help very much with that particular skill set.

I know people see a few games with low impact and think 'he's not progressing let's mix it up', but with his level of inexperience he would be learning new aspects of his trade all the time, probably more so from the opportunities he misses than the ones he gets. The truth is there are some skills you can only develop by playing your position on game day.

Playing other positions can add more strings to your bow, and add an extra dimension to your skill set, but thinking you can learn to be a forward by playing defence is akin to thinking you can learn to write left handed by practicing with your right hand. Yes it helps, and it's better than nothing, but ultimately you need to write with your left hand as much as possible to become good at it.

He's essentially a first year key forward. You're going to have a bad time if you want to drop that sort of player every time they have a quiet game.

He's been playing forward for 15 games though and I'm not sure he's really improving as much as you'd like to see. As I said give him the rest of the season but we'll see what happens in the trade period and draft and re-evaluate where he sits in our squad.

Playing down back on the best key forwards is a pretty common and successful method of learning how to play as a key forward unless you are a freak like Jeremy Cameron and can do it from your first game.

Where was he playing last year?

 

[jackess]

He's essentially a first year key forward. You're going to have a bad time if you want to drop that sort of player every time they have a quiet game.

Where was he playing last year?

Defense mainly

 

[carnthemlions]

Defense mainly

 

[Ironmonger]

I think Robbo was far from our worst. His execution let him down a few times, but I think that was a refelction on having no targets/options and at times trying to be too creative. A few years ago, Pearce Hanley was trying to take the game on and at times being found out. Whilst i don't think Robbo has the skill of Pearce, and needs to learn his limitations, you won't learn those without pushing them.

Agreed.

It's definitely frustrating to watch Robbo get caught with the ball, but a lot of our young players have the opposite problem; they're afraid to get tackled and dump the ball off on their nearest teammate without taking that fraction of a second to think it through. Lester in particular is guilty of this.

Spatial awareness and decision-making speed will improve with more time at this level.

 

[jackess]

Not seeing your point. You can't argue against the fact that he reads the play very poorly and I don't think we're seeing enough improvement to lock him in as a forward long term. You can say that he's only in his second season and that he was playing down back last year but maybe he's just not going to be a forward.

 

[lionshine]

I thought Christensen showed what he can produce in that 3rd quarter. It will be exciting to watch him next year as he enters his prime with a full pre season behind him. It is easy to forget he hardly played any football last year and missed most of the pre season with the back injury. I think he has potential to be an A grader.

 

[karix]

Not seeing your point. You can't argue against the fact that he reads the play very poorly and I don't think we're seeing enough improvement to lock him in as a forward long term. You can say that he's only in his second season and that he was playing down back last year but maybe he's just not going to be a forward.

You are seeing his point you just don't agree with it. His reading of the playing isn't great, but our play coming out of defence is neither orderly or particularly easy to read, so it's a double whammy. It's hard to blame the young forward entirely when the structure up the ground isn't ideal either, and the skills errors make progress up the ground stilted and a bit erratic more often that you'd like.

He needs time to develop as a forward just like our half back line needs to work on their skills, decision making and composure on the counter attack. The best way for him to develop is to keep playing the position you want him to develop in. I'm not saying he is our future power forward, and I think he'll end up being a more mobile forward target once we get a big man to kick to. But until that time we need him to learn as much as he can as quickly as he can. I don't think we should move him out of the forward line unless we think he isn't going to be able to make it as a forward and I think 15 games when we've been hit very hard by injury across every line of the field isn't a fair test for him.

As I said before, playing in the 2s also isn't going to help him develop other than to give him a confidence boost, as the standard of QAFL opponents (both his direct opponents, and the opposition the rest of the team faces moving the ball up the ground) isn't even remotely comparable to the AFL. Unless there is someone who is ready to do a better job than he is at the moment then he should hold his place IMO.

 

[cotter101]

Does annoy me when Christensen drops the head looking for free kicks. But I was happy with his performance overall.

 

[Eons]

The style of football we're playing at the moment is finals quality once we become more experienced. Really like our midfielders to link up more and run and carry when we take a mark outside 50 rather than waiting for someone to present. Will hurt us coming back the other way if we stuff it up but think we need to take more risks in this area.

 

[jackess]

You are seeing his point you just don't agree with it. His reading of the playing isn't great, but our play coming out of defence is neither orderly or particularly easy to read, so it's a double whammy. It's hard to blame the young forward entirely when the structure up the ground isn't ideal either, and the skills errors make progress up the ground stilted and a bit erratic more often that you'd like.

He needs time to develop as a forward just like our half back line needs to work on their skills, decision making and composure on the counter attack. The best way for him to develop is to keep playing the position you want him to develop in. I'm not saying he is our future power forward, and I think he'll end up being a more mobile forward target once we get a big man to kick to. But until that time we need him to learn as much as he can as quickly as he can. I don't think we should move him out of the forward line unless we think he isn't going to be able to make it as a forward and I think 15 games when we've been hit very hard by injury across every line of the field isn't a fair test for him.

As I said before, playing in the 2s also isn't going to help him develop other than to give him a confidence boost, as the standard of QAFL opponents (both his direct opponents, and the opposition the rest of the team faces moving the ball up the ground) isn't even remotely comparable to the AFL. Unless there is someone who is ready to do a better job than he is at the moment then he should hold his place IMO.

I'm definitely not saying drop him.

 

[carnthemlions]

Not seeing your point. You can't argue against the fact that he reads the play very poorly and I don't think we're seeing enough improvement to lock him in as a forward long term. You can say that he's only in his second season and that he was playing down back last year but maybe he's just not going to be a forward.

I was saying this at the start of the season, but he's shown more than enough to convince me that he's a forward. No one's saying we should lock him in(he's still got a long way to go), but there's really no reason not to persist with him. Bourke and Staker certainly aren't the future of our forward line. Young KPFs are frustrating and inconsistent, particularly when they have to go up against the opposition's no.1 defender every week.

 

[jackess]

I was saying this at the start of the season, but he's shown more than enough to convince me that he's a forward. No one's saying we should lock him in(he's still got a long way to go), but there's really no reason not to persist with him. Bourke and Staker certainly aren't the future of our forward line. Young KPFs are frustrating and inconsistent, particularly when they have to go up against the opposition's no.1 defender every week.

Like I said in the off season we may get Dixon and Schache. If Schache comes along as well as expected the competition for spots in the forward line will become pretty tough for McStay, Close and Freeman or a resting ruckman. That's when the pressure is going to come on McStay to start delivering and the backline may be a better option. As it stands he's played 1 good game, 1 average game and 10 poor games albeit with a very poor midfield. He'd probably want to finish the season strongly to get a spot in the forward line for round 1 next year.

 

[Albi_Mangler]

Last 3 games since being thrashed by the Dogs it is clear we have been working on a much more defensive set up, more players around the ball and working the stoppages. It's not pretty at times and for me it is similar to "parking the bus" in soccer. The problem with this strategy for us is that without a quality forward target the only way to score is either run the ball into the forward 50 or from a f50 stoppage and to be successful you need to keep the opposition scores to a minimum. I think as a strategy for these games it was required. We were up against 3 teams with high quality power forwards and a strong scoring ability. With our forward structure for these games we were going to struggle to kick 100 points so therefore needed to defend first.

Overall I am not disappointed with this strategy and the results for these games. We competed well with all three sides. This type of play is essential to our development as even the best sides need to switch from high intensity attack to slowing the game down in periods to defend.

What will be interesting from my point of view is the strategy for the next few games especially when we have some more forward targets available and whether we see a distinct switch to a much more attacking structure.

 

[kenberger]

I must have just watched a different game than some others have described.
Our boys were valiant in defeat. I'm not celebrating losing at all, but they pushed a possible grand final contender today and played very well for 80% of the game. A team with 50% of the side in their third season and less are always going to struggle in the latter stages of the game.
Good effort boys!!

I think the Swans are kidding themselves if they think they're a genuine contender... Yes we gave effort(which is great to watch) but they were putrid

 

[kenberger]

Last three weeks have been really impressive despite losing in all of those games. Younger players making mistakes as the game wears on in the last qtr is expected. Doesn't help when we don't have a decent target to be kicking to. Last three weeks we've averaged 44.6 clearances, 50 I50's, 7.3 marks I50, 143.3 contested possessions and 78 tackles against sides that rank 1st, 3rd and 9th.

I know I'm only comparing 3 weeks but the Fremantle average 42.9 clearances over the season(the best in the comp). 143.3 contested possessions would place us second in the competition only behind Adelaide who average 145.2. 50 inside fifties would place us 8th in the comp, 78 tackles would have us 1st, next best in 72.8.

Think that really lets us down is marks inside 50. We've average 7 which would place us last in the afl by over 2 marks game.

Just thought it would be interesting to look at. The effort has really lifted and the stats reflect it. Our senior players are finding form again. As a member, I've been very happy the last 3 weeks. We still had 10 kids running around with under 50 games experience.

We've got Melbourne, North, Geelong, Gold Coast, Carlton, Adelaide, Hawks and the Dogs in the last 8 rounds. I'd say 5 or 6 of those are very winnable on current form.

Delivery inside 50 compounds the marking problem.. Lots of hospitals went in last night and constantly found 1 on 2s on the end of them. Either drill it in low and contest it at ground level or stop blasting in there without looking.

 

[OldLion]

A game to forget I'm afraid. Disappointed that we didn't have ruck advantage - and of course no goals in the last (again ). Wondering about learning your craft in the NEAFL .. I'm not seeing that. And it's interesting to see clubs with VFL teams ( reserves in effect ) developing a strong list. Is the NEALF the wasteland it suggests ? That said , its been a shocking year for injuries and all the best laid plans have been shot down.

 

[cotter101]

Delivery inside 50 compounds the marking problem.. Lots of hospitals went in last night and constantly found 1 on 2s on the end of them. Either drill it in low and contest it at ground level or stop blasting in there without looking.

I think it's more the forwards not leading. What else can the midfielders do if the forwards are standing there not trying to get separation? It's been a problem for a while now.

Knowing when and where to lead makes one hell of a difference, especially when your a young Key Forward that doesn't yet have the strength to out muscles your opponent.

 

[Ironmonger]

Last 3 games since being thrashed by the Dogs it is clear we have been working on a much more defensive set up, more players around the ball and working the stoppages. It's not pretty at times and for me it is similar to "parking the bus" in soccer. The problem with this strategy for us is that without a quality forward target the only way to score is either run the ball into the forward 50 or from a f50 stoppage and to be successful you need to keep the opposition scores to a minimum. I think as a strategy for these games it was required. We were up against 3 teams with high quality power forwards and a strong scoring ability. With our forward structure for these games we were going to struggle to kick 100 points so therefore needed to defend first.

Overall I am not disappointed with this strategy and the results for these games. We competed well with all three sides. This type of play is essential to our development as even the best sides need to switch from high intensity attack to slowing the game down in periods to defend.

What will be interesting from my point of view is the strategy for the next few games especially when we have some more forward targets available and whether we see a distinct switch to a much more attacking structure.

I agree will all of that.

At the moment, we're happy to slow down play and maintain possession around half back. That seemed to work early against the Swans, who took a long time to get into the game.

But once even the beginnings of fatigue kick in, we have neither the legs to run to space nor the poise to execute those routine passes, so the strategy unravels quickly, and we lose the ball in our defensive half.

We need more attacking intent and, as you say, we have the opportunity to display that over the next few weeks.

 

[jackess]

I agree will all of that.

At the moment, we're happy to slow down play and maintain possession around half back. That seemed to work early against the Swans, who took a long time to get into the game.

But once even the beginnings of fatigue kick in, we have neither the legs to run to space nor the poise to execute those routine passes, so the strategy unravels quickly, and we lose the ball in our defensive half.

We need more attacking intent and, as you say, we have the opportunity to display that over the next few weeks.

I think yesterday gave us a better glimpse of why we need to play 'tempo' footy. We're going to get those purple patches of play when the opposition turns it over or fails to shut down the corridor which allows us to quickly move the ball and get an inside 50 where there is space for forwards to lead into or run onto the footy and we're far more likely to get a shot on goal in those situations. As we get better with our pressure and getting numbers in the right areas we will be able to turn the ball over and move the ball quickly far more often but there will be times where we are forced to move it more slowly. We need to get a lot better at this chipping around. We need to be able to switch the ball and move the opposition zone across the ground or chip pass the ball forward to move their zone up allowing us to get the ball deeper to an area where we are not outnumbered. This will come with a lot of practice and good coaching. We also need to get a lot better at, at least halving the contests when we do have to kick it long to a pack and locking the ball inside our forward 50 when it hits the ground and creating multiple chances.