Transgender women in competitive sport

[Dalions]

Just wondering what other people's take is on this type of scenario.
Personally I dont think it should be allowed.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/s...s/news-story/7037ae95d7872ed0657460b7f7f9cff6

"TRANSGENDER weightlifter Laurel Hubbard has won a silver medal for New Zealand at the weightlifting world championships, keeping the controversial issue alive in the lead-up to the Commonwealth Games".

 

[The Flying Belgian]

Just wondering what other people's take is on this type of scenario.
Personally I dont think it should be allowed.

Can a woman compete in the men's event?

 

[dlanod]

Just wondering what other people's take is on this type of scenario.
Personally I dont think it should be allowed.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/s...s/news-story/7037ae95d7872ed0657460b7f7f9cff6

"TRANSGENDER weightlifter Laurel Hubbard has won a silver medal for New Zealand at the weightlifting world championships, keeping the controversial issue alive in the lead-up to the Commonwealth Games".

People seem to love to play up the "fairness" angle, but there are strict measures for this:

"Hubbard had to demonstrate her testosterone levels were below a certain threshold for 12 months before representing New Zealand."

 

[Dalions]

People seem to love to play up the "fairness" angle, but there are strict measures for this:

"Hubbard had to demonstrate her testosterone levels were below a certain threshold for 12 months before representing New Zealand."

I understand that, but it is still not right.

 

[dlanod]

I understand that, but it is still not right.

Should she be competing in the men's competition?

Is that fair on her?

 

[Dalions]

Should she be competing in the men's competition?

Is that fair on her?

I honestly dont think this is a matter of being fair.
Does lowering the testosterone levels of a man automatically make them a woman?
xx and xy chromosomes might say different.

 

[Brett C]

I understand that, but it is still not right.

I'm really not sure what you mean by "not right". The level of ignorance around this topic is mindblowing, maybe try to educate yourself a little and then you'll understand that some pretty substantial names in medicine have been involved in crafting the guidelines which originated with the IOC a few years ago.

https://stillmed.olympic.org/Docume..._sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

The above might shed some light on your sheltered little world. BTW the earth isn't flat either.

 

[WA Lion]

People seem to love to play up the "fairness" angle, but there are strict measures for this:

"Hubbard had to demonstrate her testosterone levels were below a certain threshold for 12 months before representing New Zealand."

This is one of those awkward subjects that people are often passionate about, without necessarily understanding the science behind the decision making process. It's very subjective though as I'm not entirely convinced that reduction of testosterone levels for example (amongst other parameters of course) actually makes it a level playing field.

Trouble is rather than learning about Biology as a young fella I dated the Biology teachers daughter and promptly got ejected from each lesson.....

 

[Skoob]

Leaving this, without comment;

Hubbard finished runner-up in the snatch category

 

[Dalions]

I'm really not sure what you mean by "not right". The level of ignorance around this topic is mindblowing, maybe try to educate yourself a little and then you'll understand that some pretty substantial names in medicine have been involved in crafting the guidelines which originated with the IOC a few years ago.

https://stillmed.olympic.org/Docume..._sex_reassignment_and_hyperandrogenism-en.pdf

The above might shed some light on your sheltered little world. BTW the earth isn't flat either.

In 15yrs when we have transgender winning 90% of womens gold medals at Olympic games in 90% of individual sports.
And women around the world boycotting games as a result. We will see if the right decision has been made.

 

[dlanod]

I honestly dont think this is a matter of being fair.
Does lowering the testosterone levels of a man automatically make them a woman?
xx and xy chromosomes might say different.

Except you can have women with XY chromosomes (https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/swyer-syndrome), men with XX chromosomes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome) or even more combinations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome).

The reason they choose testosterone to test is because it has directly links to strength, etc, i.e. how well a person will compete in these sports. It's basically treating it similar to doping (excessive blood markers, etc) rather than forcing identity checks.

In 15yrs when we have transgender winning 90% of womens gold medals at Olympic games in 90% of individual sports.
And women around the world boycotting games as a result. We will see if the right decision has been made.

I'll believe that when I see it. It's amazing how many of these dire predictions never eventuate. This woman only came second in NZ, remember. It's not like it's a panacea straight to the top.

 

[Dalions]

Should she be competing in the men's competition?

Is that fair on her?

I guess, the authorities wouldn't dare to have transgender sporting competitions around the world?

 

[Brett C]

In 15yrs when we have transgender winning 90% of womens gold medals at Olympic games in 90% of individual sports.
And women around the world boycotting games as a result. We will see if the right decision has been made.

Yeah not sure you actually understand the effect the testosterone levels will have on someone. According to a quick google search average testosterone levels range from approx 270ng/dL to 1100ng/dL. The IOC requirements are less than 10ng/dL for 12 months and even the most simple minded would understand this would impact athletic performance.

It's like you think average male athletes will see this as a way to win Olympic medals and ignore the reality of it affecting a very very small proportion of society while being a major mental health issue as well.

 

[dlanod]

I guess, the authorities wouldn't dare to have transgender sporting competitions around the world?

I don't think "dare" comes into it. Current estimates seem to be in the ballpark of 0.4% of the population. That's very niche to run sporting competitions on par with the Olympics. By comparison, the Paralympics exist but an estimated 10% of the population (using US adults, 18-64, as a baseline) has some form of disability.

I'd find the idea that women's sport is going to be magically taken over by transgender athletes pretty funny if that same idea didn't come across as yet another example of unnecessary discrimination.

 

[Brett C]

I guess, the authorities wouldn't dare to have transgender sporting competitions around the world?

Really not sure what your issue is here, it is something that affects a very small % of the population and really isn't difficult to just accept and move on. Part of being a more connected and educated world is that we don't need to be bigoted around this stuff.

 

[SizeMatters]

Just wondering what other people's take is on this type of scenario.
Personally I dont think it should be allowed.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/s...s/news-story/7037ae95d7872ed0657460b7f7f9cff6

"TRANSGENDER weightlifter Laurel Hubbard has won a silver medal for New Zealand at the weightlifting world championships, keeping the controversial issue alive in the lead-up to the Commonwealth Games".

Total load of s**t. Shouldn't be taking part in females events at all. Throws the integrity of the sport out the window. So many physical advantages over natural females...

 

[Dalions]

Really not sure what your issue is here, it is something that affects a very small % of the population and really isn't difficult to just accept and move on. Part of being a more connected and educated world is that we don't need to be bigoted around this stuff.

You have your opinion, i have mine.
Isnt that part of living in a Democratic society, being able to have an opinion on a matter.
Doesn't in any way make a person a bigot.

 

[SizeMatters]

I honestly dont think this is a matter of being fair.
Does lowering the testosterone levels of a man automatically make them a woman?
xx and xy chromosomes might say different.

once through puberty testosterone changes the whole body. Bone density alone would be a huge advantage for this transgender.

 

[SizeMatters]

Yeah not sure you actually understand the effect the testosterone levels will have on someone. According to a quick google search average testosterone levels range from approx 270ng/dL to 1100ng/dL. The IOC requirements are less than 10ng/dL for 12 months and even the most simple minded would understand this would impact athletic performance.

It's like you think average male athletes will see this as a way to win Olympic medals and ignore the reality of it affecting a very very small proportion of society while being a major mental health issue as well.

The thing is though even if 0,4% or what ever are transitioned they would probably eventually dominate something like 50% of the standings of international level competition IMO. Once it's been legalised and a transgender sporting culture is built the data will be biased towards them no doubt. Won't happen for the next 10 years as I stated the sports culture just isn't there ATM but give it time...

 

[Billy Puller]

once through puberty testosterone changes the whole body. Bone density alone would be a huge advantage for this transgender.

There's that South African runner with testicles that looks like a man and won gold at Rio.

She's in the grey area or whatever but still it's pretty obvious the advantage of the testicles has given her

 

[WA Lion]

Would be fascinating to know if an anonymous survey has ever been conducted of athletes competing in the same category as a transgender person. Their thoughts would be telling in either direction.

Must be bloody tough for transgender people to compete in high level sport. On one hand you have the simple desire to be the best you can be, and on the other hand as soon as you win you inevitably face questions about whether you have an unfair advantage or not. Think of the runner Caster Semenya for example.

After all the mental anguish they probably experienced as a person conflicted over their gender identity and whether to transition, to then put yourself out there in high level sport knowing the publicity it might generate is pretty brave.

 

[Brett C]

You have your opinion, i have mine.
Isnt that part of living in a Democratic society, being able to have an opinion on a matter.
Doesn't in any way make a person a bigot.

The old living in a democratic society/free speech chestnut, some people believe Hitler was a good guy as well. It's great you've got an opinion, just a shame it's a completely uninformed moronic one.

 

[Billy Puller]

The old living in a democratic society/free speech chestnut, some people believe Hitler was a good guy as well. It's great you've got an opinion, just a shame it's a completely uninformed moronic one.

Yo i believe this was already covered by the Simpsons. If she's got an Adam's apple she shouldn't be allowed to compete

 

[SizeMatters]

There's that South African runner with testicles that looks like a man and won gold at Rio.

She's in the grey area or whatever but still it's pretty obvious the advantage of the testicles has given her

I read that Semenya has 3 times the testosterone level of her average competitor yet is still under the 10ng/dL yet look at the physical advantage she has. Transgender athletes will no doubt stay around the 10ng/dL so you would imagine they will have a huge advantage. I hope and I would believe that legitimate females boycott competition... have heard more than a few are seething.

 

[Billy Puller]

I read that Semenya has 3 times the testosterone level of her average competitor yet is still under the 10ng/dL yet look at the physical advantage she has. Transgender athletes will no doubt stay around the 10ng/dL so you would imagine they will have a huge advantage. I hope and I would believe that legitimate females boycott competition... have heard more than a few are seething.

I'd be pissed off, it's a huge advantage. It's like a female athlete doing steroids without doing steroids.

As well as stuff like bone density, body fat etc where men have the advantages. Also stuff like babies and what not that these athletes would never have to worry about. I agree I don't think it's bigoted to say that.

Unless you let all the women in sport beef up their testosterone it's inherently unfair.