The Sacking - 1975, Whitlam, Fraser and Kerr

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AM said:
It's not taking that option away. The matter is about a GG who threw out the key neutrality role and became an active player in the political process. Something you continually fail to comprehend cos it doesn't suit your narrative.
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His most important duty is to dissolve Parliament if supply bills cant be passed.

Something you continually refuse to acknowledge.

The Govt was a shambles and trying to raise funds by illegally dealing with Middle Eastern loan sharks. We had a Minister selling Visas to Mafia bosses. A PM who turned his back on journalists being murdered.

And were punished by voters for years.

But yes, lets focus on the GG.
 
HairyO said:
His most important duty is to dissolve Parliament if supply bills cant be passed.

Something you continually refuse to acknowledge.

The Govt was a shambles and trying to raise funds by illegally dealing with Middle Eastern loan sharks. We had a Minister selling Visas to Mafia bosses. A PM who turned his back on journalists being murdered.

And were punished by voters for years.

But yes, lets focus on the GG.
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You insist on putting forward this straw man argument. Over and over. No one has put that the GG doesn’t have the power to dissolve parliament using his proper powers and functions. Least of all Prof Hocking who is prosecuting the case that he acted outside those powers.

Read the APH powers and functions of the GG and you will see at the top of the list is:

“the maintenance of the independent and impartial nature of the office is paramount;”

Paramount meaning ‘superior to all others’.

What the piss head did was involve himself, up to his reactionary eyeballs, in the political process with the aim of overthrowing a duly elected government. That is contrary to being independent and impartial. The reason Prof Hocking wants access to the Palace Letters is to establish beyond doubt how much political dirt this unelected grub has on his hands.
 

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skilts said:
Kerr's sacking of Whitlam had nothing to do with any loans affair. He intervened because 'his government' was unable to pass the supply bills through the Senate. The reason this was so was because of the opportunistic bastardry of Malcolm Fraser and his main-chancer cronies.

In fact, what Kerr did was illegal under the constitution. He allowed Fraser a double dissolution, on the basis of Fraser claiming that the Senate was obstructing him, by refusing to pass legislation through that chamber, when, in fact, Fraser had never attempted to have passed any legislation during that parliament - he wasn't part of the government.

The assumption you make about Kerr acting on correct advice is ill-founded and throws out the window the concept of the Governor-General taking the advice of his Prime Minister. In fact, Kerr's duplicity is exposed by the fact that he never consulted Whitlam before he acted against his government. Kerr's stated reason for adopting this strategy was that had Whitlam been aware of his intentions, he (Whitlam) would have had Kerr's commission withdrawn, by contacting the palace. Kerr thought it better for the country to suffer the greatest constitutional catastrophe in its history, rather than that he lose his job. a-hole!

The major issue attendant upon any loan is not who is doing the lending, but whether the loan can be repaid. Which is not to say that the methods employed by the clowns in Whitlam's cabinet to secure these fantasy loans were in any way savoury. The problem of not being able to pay the debts never existed. The effect of the withholding of supply by the Senate meant that day-to-day running costs of government and salary payments to public servants were deferred. It was not as if the government had run out of money.

A good outcome from this was that Kerr spent the rest of his life as the odious pariah he was, hounded wherever he went. Another outcome was that the nature of Fraser's headlong, unprincipled rush to power made his government an impotent, static nothingness. The bad thing about this is that these days people have forgotten what an a-hole Fraser was, and still is. The difference these days is that he hides it better, and isn't as ambitious.

To me, nobody has ever been able to come up with a satisfactory reason to have a head of state at all. We either have a democracy or not. If our representatives in parliament are deemed unfit to elect a head of state, why the **** were they elected by the voters in the first place? To say this, is a blatant admission of collective imbecility. Apart from one other system, that of direct election of a head of state, in direct opposition to a PM elected by his/her party, this is the worst possible so-called system of Westminster government.

As regards the undesirability of a dictatorship, have you cast your eyes over those who currently vote in this country?
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Why did they block supply?
Think on that before you say Kemlani didn't exist?
Okey-dokey????
 
JoondalupJ said:
Why did they block supply?
Think on that before you say Kemlani didn't exist?
Okey-dokey????
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Lots of words mate the basis was too many concerns including loans of strange origins or of perhaps dodgy agreements.
Much bulldust spread and believe all you like who was right or wrong seems to seep into today's clear water like sewerage when we look at Labor their love of borrowing and creating crisis over something that is NOT A CRISIS the weather.
But the money grabbing the super pinch the killing of the working class.
That was not Gough's way, but telling the world or dreaming of saving us from everything by a dodgy set of loans along with all your comments meant Gough had to go
Because we may 50 years later still have been owing!
Whether the main reason or not it was one, when your nation could be in danger we have our sovereign head of state THE GOVERNOR GENERAL, with that one single power .
Thank effing Christ for that
Mal wasn't that much better

In the end popular Bob and Paul came in did a good job til 1996 then economy improved
Then Rudd?? the impossible arrived.
And Labor's downfall began again, and here we go once more with spenders stealers promisers and the worst type of fanatic pretend crisis panickers when there is no crisis!
And character assassinaters too !
The worst vote we ever have had on lies and plans
And renewable maybes??
Then a greenie with coal and gas investments , and a billionaire beginning a fake Teal cross bench over his green crisis insanity, a vote that got Labor in on preferences, meaning they did not get a first vote mandate, and here we are worrying about what Gough was trying to borrow or change, when we have Mr Inbetween running around .
DONE ONLY ONE GOOD THING TIGHTEN UP OUR ALLIANCE WITH USA AND UK BUY SUBS AND GET WEAPONED UP FOR DEFENCE THE REST IS JOB KILLING AND DISASTER BY A ZEALOT NAMED BOWEN
But we should give credit too Marles and Albanese at least for building onto the Morrison AUKUS deal
But where are the 600,000 jobs coming from.
Not another Turnbull type South Australian sub build of British nuke subs too?
At least they're not old diesels?
 
skilts said:
Great to discuss with you. Obviously, this affair doesn't come up very often these days and when it does the debate is misinformed due to a lack of understanding of what happened. I suppose I do still maintain the rage. After waiting 23 years for Labor government, to have its program frustrated because of Fraser's born-to-rule mentality, made those who thought as I did think that the system was stacked against us, and that even if we played by the rules, others wouldn't.

Nowadays, both sides of politics not only don't play by the rules, they don't even know of the book's existence. My current cynicism about politics and politicians is greatly informed by the doings of 1975.
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Politics is a filthy game. I consider myself for many many years of my life following something I really had no idea about . Until I entered the activity of Unionism. As a rep, many years not an official but much to do with and close to some officials, and I found that too, a hoodwink and one occasion had a union secretary, that I needed to talk to about a serious drivers issue, tell me "I haven't got time I have to rush these papers down to the ALP office", just a tiny incident among many as the unions castrated themselves via John Howard and work choices.
I told my union official that day to tell the ALP to go you know what themselves.
Since 24 or 5 years as a rep I got a good look inside the left, and the union movement has lost its path the rank and file are of little concern and the Unions are also so very very wealthy and form super unions, own property and I guess, own the ALP and some of their membership ranking officials in other unions have committed bad bad things, and I won't mention them on here, but it was my beginning of the end of my following of the ALP.

And the reason I say what I've told you is because of that very strong labor working class thought pattern I'd grown up with. I'm no spring chicken, I am not involved any more , but the way things were handled for my people, turned me , and so even though I am a working class human being, that's not in any upper echelons of society, I have lost my faith in the ALP especially lately, I think Albanese lies or was lead by lies, and I see destruction of our way of life and its standard here now. And it is why I have been reading and reading lots of articles from all sides about politics and I agree with you we seem in Australia to not pick good people on either side of politics. Look at Turnbull and Rudd.

I am also rather disappointed with the LNP maybe not their partners the Nats, but the Libs follow the disastrous fraud of climate policy and energy destroying renewables. and 2050 zero too an impossible target.
So I have looked at comments from people who think that a republic would be nice because it separates us from the Brits.

Well believe it or not we were separated from the Brits in law and sovereignty over a hundred years ago. We kept some of the culture because we were mainly British Isles citizens, then.

That changed, but now we have the republic argument and really we if we have to change the governor generals name, ok but , we should still keep the power the single power, to over ride a government that could change our constitution.

Like this Voice may do, another argument for another day. But hell be careful there already is a voice in many organisations all over Australia, this is an Albo obssesion.

Then I get angrier when some decide to say we are sick of British apron strings, but THEY ARE GONE!

The Queen/King now, could never sack and Australian government, they are a different nation, it would be like us sacking the NZ PM, or Australia 's GG sacking President Biden, it is not possible.

The Queen in 1975 signed a ceremonial document with perhaps some legal cultural thing to it, but she would definitely never have refused to sign the decision because we were and are a sovereign nation unto ourselves , the Queen had no power what so ever over us.

We need to look real close at the reality and no one can say what happened really in 1975 but Gough a great man to me, had people around him that could have put us in terrible trouble , because of a loan, and yes the Libs did block supply, and the ALP love spending other people money too! Consequences ooh worry about that later.

If you dislike Fraser that's fine, I never really liked him either , but whether he just wanted a reason to "get power" or not, this loan had to be pulled up. perhaps that was the only way, I am no expert, but we are a sovereign nation , no one rules us , we have friends we keep close because we have no choice.
And if you think Fraser thought he was born to rule, check out our latest PM and see what he said all during his campaign and his whinging at the Fed Gov, during COVID, nothing helpful just whinging, and you can see that is why lots of people are unhappy and think they made a mistake last May.
Its why little old me has turned 180 degrees the other way over the last ten or so years, and I am in my 73rd year, and I don't trust this super left green job killing mob.
Thats where I come from, loved Paul Keating, he is now bashing our agreement with the US and the UK deal, but Aussies have no choice, even if China is not a threat, we need deterrent defence system we own FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR NATION.
So Albanese has at least set that in motion SOMEWHAT, because Morrison and Dutton both began it.

Who to vote for next time, I haven't got a bloody clue? Maybe the Nats should go it alone.
 
My two cents worth.

I actually knew Fraser via my father, Fraser who I met via cattle sales was a toff. Any bad adjective about him was probably warranted.

As for Whitlam, if you take the time to research via Google News Archive Search .

The Age that was known as the "The Spencer St Pravda" chronicles how in 1975 Whitlam had lost control of his Government. Every week there was an new scandal on the front page. (and this is from a left leaning newspaper.)

There were ministers doing their on thing because they knew that writing was on the wall for this Government. Backroom deals had Dr. Jim Cairns as treasurer. He was more interested in the Junie Morosi.

Inflation was a major issue. After two decades were inflation wasn't an issue it reared it's head and took another 20 ears to get on top off. ( It's a warning for today, the current inflation will continue for many years to come.)

Unemployment was an issue. After years of full employment the economy went into recession and the rate went up. By the time I was old enough to look for work the youth unemployment rate was nearly 30%.

Two misconceptions about Whitlam:

1. He dismantled the White Australia Policy. The WAP was cornerstone of the labour movement for seventy years. Dr Evatt once said "2 wongs don't make a white." The Wap was dismantle by Immigration minister Harold Holt. The last remnants was passed in 1973.
2. He brought the troops home from South Vietman . Under Nixon plan of "Vietnamation" Australia start drawing down the numbers from a high of 9,000 in 1969 to 200 in 1972. The 200 were mainly Embassy security. Gough brought them home six months early.
 
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Todman said:
My two cents worth.

I actually knew Fraser via my father, Fraser who I met via cattle sales was a toff. Any bad adjective about him was probably warranted.

As for Whitlam, if you take the time to research via Google News Archive Search .

The Age that was known as the "The Spencer St Pravda" chronicles how in 1975 Whitlam had lost control of his Government. Every week there was an new scandal on the front page. (and this is from a left leaning newspaper.)

There were ministers doing their on thing because they knew that writing was on the wall for this Government. Backroom deals had Dr. Jim Cairns as treasurer. He was more interested in the Junie Morosi.

Inflation was a major issue. After two decades were inflation wasn't an issue it reared it's head and took another 20 ears to get on top off. ( It's a warning for today, the current inflation was continue for many years to come.)

Unemployment was an issue. After years of full employment the economy went into recession and the rate went up. By the time I was old enough to look for work the youth unemployment rate was nearly 30%.

Two misconceptions about Whitlam:

1. He dismantled the White Australia Policy. The WAP was cornerstone of the labour movement for seventy years. Dr Evatt once said "2 wongs don't make a white." The Wap was dismantle by Immigration minister Harold Holt. The last remnants was passed in 1973.
2. He brought the troops home from South Vietman . Under Nixon plan of "Vietnamation" Australia start drawing down the numbers from a high of 9,000 in 1969 to 200 in 1972. The 200 were mainly Embassy security. Gough brought them home six months early.
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Thank you. lots went wrong for Gough's gov, we never really knew, but some obviously did. So it all fell over.
 

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JoondalupJ said:
Thank you. lots went wrong for Gough's gov, we never really knew, but some obviously did. So it all fell over.
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if you know who the man on the right it. the picture will paint a thousand words as to why Gough was booted from office
 

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Labor partisans attempting to delegitimize that the Australian people had their say at the post-Dismissal 13-12-1975 election - and indeed at the Bass bye-election six months earlier - is what sh*ts me.
 
Todman said:
My two cents worth.

I actually knew Fraser via my father, Fraser who I met via cattle sales was a toff. Any bad adjective about him was probably warranted.

As for Whitlam, if you take the time to research via Google News Archive Search .

The Age that was known as the "The Spencer St Pravda" chronicles how in 1975 Whitlam had lost control of his Government. Every week there was an new scandal on the front page. (and this is from a left leaning newspaper.)

There were ministers doing their on thing because they knew that writing was on the wall for this Government. Backroom deals had Dr. Jim Cairns as treasurer. He was more interested in the Junie Morosi.

Inflation was a major issue. After two decades were inflation wasn't an issue it reared it's head and took another 20 ears to get on top off. ( It's a warning for today, the current inflation will continue for many years to come.)

Unemployment was an issue. After years of full employment the economy went into recession and the rate went up. By the time I was old enough to look for work the youth unemployment rate was nearly 30%.

Two misconceptions about Whitlam:

1. He dismantled the White Australia Policy. The WAP was cornerstone of the labour movement for seventy years. Dr Evatt once said "2 wongs don't make a white." The Wap was dismantle by Immigration minister Harold Holt. The last remnants was passed in 1973.
2. He brought the troops home from South Vietman . Under Nixon plan of "Vietnamation" Australia start drawing down the numbers from a high of 9,000 in 1969 to 200 in 1972. The 200 were mainly Embassy security. Gough brought them home six months early.
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Thank you for those comments, There are many misconceptions about The Whitlam Government people. Your comments brought back names and memories, and how Cairns was looked on as one of the hero boys who had caught himself a nice woman, hah, he forgot to do his job.

The WAP I thought it was Caldwell who said the (2 w"r"ongs) thing, but he may have been one of the instigators of the White Australia Policy in earlier times. Withdrawing from the Vietnam war, I should have paid more attention in those times , we all got told that Gough did it, that is untrue I believe he finished it didn't start it , thanks for those things, straightened out.
One last comment from me, we could call the ABC the NEW Pravda these days. A propaganda instrument.
 
HairyO said:
His most important duty is to dissolve Parliament if supply bills cant be passed.

Something you continually refuse to acknowledge.

The Govt was a shambles and trying to raise funds by illegally dealing with Middle Eastern loan sharks. We had a Minister selling Visas to Mafia bosses. A PM who turned his back on journalists being murdered.

And were punished by voters for years.

But yes, lets focus on the GG.
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Rex conner authority to raise loans had been withdrawn and he was sacked all before the dismissal

As a justification for the dismal it;s complete red herring.
 
JoondalupJ said:
... Caldwell who said the (2 w"r"ongs) thing, but he may have been one of the instigators of the White Australia Policy in earlier times. ...
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Arthur Calwell (no d) was 5 years old when the Immigration Restriction Act 1901 was promulgated. His "2 Wongs don't make a white" is a misquote, it was a dig at Sir Thomas White, an eminent member of the Liberal Party at the time. Calwell was, in fact, in that speech, opposing the deportation of a foreign-born national. Calwell was a great Labour leader, in times when the ALP did what it was founded to do.
 
O Grobbecker said:
Arthur Calwell (no d) was 5 years old when the Immigration Restriction Act 1901 was promulgated. His "2 Wongs don't make a white" is a misquote, it was a dig at Sir Thomas White, an eminent member of the Liberal Party at the time. Calwell was, in fact, in that speech, opposing the deportation of a foreign-born national. Calwell was a great Labour leader, in times when the ALP did what it was founded to do.
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Pity it doesn't do that now!!!! And when it tries , it fails miserably, LABOR is the name but workers are not their game! Anymore.

Fantasy ideals , and job killing policies with the banning of coal the killing of gas searching , the total denial of new Nuclear fusion or fission energy,
complete disregard for the cost of energy , that in the end murders employment, potentially ruining the industries they keep talking about, and blaming everything on others, including Turnbulls Sub deal for South Australia and his Snowy 2 project bogged and locked down with ground holes developing above yet Bowen says disregarding all the advice even from the senior manager of the project, "oh we'll keep going" And still kills off coal mines without Renewables any where near proven!

The housing disaster and you can go on!

You can't , though, go on blaming the previous governments, as all Labor ministers seem to need to do.

Yet they want to bring in many migrants , "AND, YES, I KNOW THIS COUNTRY IS BUILT ON ALL DIFFERENT MIGRANTS AND RACES" that's not what I am talking about, we can barely house our own, and our legislation to always keep inflation in check causes misery to many many people!
And makes banks wealthier

I don't know how making things dearer to people helps the rise in prices we call inflation , sounds like stock market manipulation and nonsense.

The ALP is not the ALP now.

As for Arthur Caldwell , if your correct then some ancient journo's may need to look at their history, regarding mis-quoting???

But he is famous for that line. A d was a Labor person, like I used to be , well still am just not an ALP person, they are a dead horse.
 
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