Politics & Government The Politics Thread

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holybishop said:
The problem is that while the majority of the Australian public like Malcolm, die hard Liberals don't. He supports a Republic, marriage equality, protecting the ABC and believes in climate change, everything the true believers of the party despise. However unlike Labor who just leak votes to the Greens, the Liberals arent caught between a rock and a hard place. There is no where for these supporters to go to, there is no credible far-right party for them to lurch to. They'll win far more votes from Labor and even the Greens with Malcolm as leader than they'll lose to the likes of KAP, Clive or even Family First.
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You're spot on.

It would be interesting if Malcolm and Bill were against each other at the next election. The Labor and Liberal parties would be most alike than they've ever been if that were the case.

jackenny said:
Honestly, the 'astronomical' debt that Labor built up during their time (and during the GFC) is pretty reasonable; for example, China actually built up more debt (GDP-to-debt ratio) in the same amount of time. Nobody is about to accuse China of running their economy badly, considering China is lauded as one of the best run and fastest growing economies in the world today.

What we were fed from the Liberal Party about that out-of-control debt was manipulative fear-mongering.

I know, crazy right, politicians fibbing and exagerating about the state of things to get elected... how shocking... :eek:
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100000000000000% right. It's the simpletons of the general public that believe the LNP's propaganda that are doing Australia damage. The 'nations credit card' line that is regularly spewed basically sums up the incompetence of the current government.

It's hard to believe that a 6 year Labor stint between the Howard and Abbott Liberal governments would create such a significant difference in party style.
 
Experimental said:
You're spot on.

It would be interesting if Malcolm and Bill were against each other at the next election. The Labor and Liberal parties would be most alike than they've ever been if that were the case.


100000000000000% right. It's the simpletons of the general public that believe the LNP's propaganda that are doing Australia damage. The 'nations credit card' line that is regularly spewed basically sums up the incompetence of the current government.

It's hard to believe that a 6 year Labor stint between the Howard and Abbott Liberal governments would create such a significant difference in party style.
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Having opposing views doesn't make people simpletons Experimental, there are many good people on both sides of politics that are passionate about the same things you are, Good governance, roads, hospitals, the environment and employment, as you have pointed out previously debt is not always a bad thing but it is not always a good thing either, especially debt that can't be paid off. As much as you believe in and support the Labor party, they have been no better than the Libs, and in some opinions markedly worse.

As for comparing China and Australia, it's hardly a reasonable comparison, you could equally compare Australia to the US and come up with a negative view on debt and its ability to debilitate an economy. Both arguments have holes in them big enough to drive a truck through them.
 
Iva Bigun said:
Having opposing views doesn't make people simpletons Experimental, there are many good people on both sides of politics that are passionate about the same things you are
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Sorry mate, I realise I wasn't very clear in what I was meaning upon re-reading it.

I wasn't calling everybody who voted for the Libs a simpleton, I was referring to the baffling believe that Australia is currently undergoing a 'budget emergency' and 'debt is bad' and 'OMG AUSTRALIA IS BROKE!' - the beliefs the Lib/Nats have instilled in the minds of the public that simple isn't true. It's not an opinion that it's not true - it's fact. Australia is not an a budget emergency (whatever that is), Australia is not broke, and the country isn't so far in debt that basic frontline services need to be cut.

The smartest thing the coalition ever did was convince the public to think that they're economic experts. Now every Tom, Dick, and Harry thinks they're an economist and now every single dollar of spending is 'wasteful'. It's hard to break a falsity that everyone believes to be true. Maybe not smart for the actual well being of the Australian people, but extremely smart politics.

n.b. Like you, I'm not a fanboy of either party - I'm merely pointing out that what the LNP is selling to the public is complete bullshit. Labor may not be any better, but they're not forming government. I'm talking about here and now.
 

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Our debt is not out of control despite some of the lies the Libs fed us at the last federal election. A lot of the damage was done during the GFC years and we have been lauded for how well we handled it by other countries. You have to spend money to avoid a being heavily affected by a GFC and that's exactly what we did. Queensland was hit particularly hard by the GFC but we're talking about the national debt right now.

image-20150128-12430-14u9lv7.png


This chart shows the GDP-to-debt ratio and you can see our debt is definitely not out of control.
 
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holybishop said:
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the removal of leaders is just a Labor curse. Liberals arent immune to stabbings themselves. They stabbed Gorton after 3 years as PM, and would have done so earlier if the Nationals didnt protect him. People can't compare removing Tony now to the removal of Kevin in 2010. Kevin was very popular when elected, was still fairly popular at the time of his removal, and no one saw it coming. The public saw it as a 'back-stabbing' because they couldn't see the reasons for his removal, and Kevin of course worked behind the scenes to play the public and sabotage Julia. Tony never has been popular and the majority of the public want Turnbull as leader. The public won't bemoan the Government if they remove Tony, but will instead flock back, and I can't see Tony doing a Kevin and undermining any new leader. The Liberals have to go to the next election with a fighting chance to win to keep Bill out and that can only happen under Malcolm.
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Fair point, certainly the average Lib would be more aligned to Malcolm than the current far right
 
GC2015 said:
Our debt is not out of control despite some of the lies the Libs fed us at the last federal election. A lot of the damage was done during the GFC years and we have been lauded for how well we handled it by other countries. You have to spend money to avoid a being heavily affected by a GFC and that's exactly what we did. Queensland was hit particularly hard by the GFC but we're talking about the national debt right now.

image-20150128-12430-14u9lv7.png


This chart shows the debt-to-GDP ratio and you can see our debt is definitely not out of control.
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It's important to note that most economists agree that until a nation's GDP-to-debt ratio reaches around the 90% mark (in some instances, countries with a ratio of up to 120% have still seen growth), growth is not negatively impacted whatsoever. Meaning, as you've stated, Australia is in fantastic condition.
 
Experimental said:
Sorry mate, I realise I wasn't very clear in what I was meaning upon re-reading it.

I wasn't calling everybody who voted for the Libs a simpleton, I was referring to the baffling believe that Australia is currently undergoing a 'budget emergency' and 'debt is bad' and 'OMG AUSTRALIA IS BROKE!' - the beliefs the Lib/Nats have instilled in the minds of the public that simple isn't true. It's not an opinion that it's not true - it's fact. Australia is not an a budget emergency (whatever that is), Australia is not broke, and the country isn't so far in debt that basic frontline services need to be cut.

The smartest thing the coalition ever did was convince the public to think that they're economic experts. Now every Tom, Dick, and Harry thinks they're an economist and now every single dollar of spending is 'wasteful'. It's hard to break a falsity that everyone believes to be true. Maybe not smart for the actual well being of the Australian people, but extremely smart politics.

n.b. Like you, I'm not a fanboy of either party - I'm merely pointing out that what the LNP is selling to the public is complete bullshit. Labor may not be any better, but they're not forming government. I'm talking about here and now.
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Fair enough, I don't think many people would argue that current we have a high functioning Government, In fact IMO you would have to go back to the early Howard years.
 
Iva Bigun said:
Fair enough, I don't think many people would argue that current we have a high functioning Government, In fact IMO you would have to go back to the early Howard years.
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Completely agree. The difference in governance is asstounding.
 

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Iva Bigun said:
As for comparing China and Australia, it's hardly a reasonable comparison, you could equally compare Australia to the US and come up with a negative view on debt and its ability to debilitate an economy. Both arguments have holes in them big enough to drive a truck through them.
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If you consider China's debt to be manageable, and we have less debt than China, then logically we're in a position we're our debt is more manageable than China's debt. You have to take into account I am comparing Australia's and China's GDP-to-debt ratio, which already takes into account the size of each of our economies - that's why it's considered a ratio / percentile of our debt compared to GDP, and not a flat number like 'China owes X amount of money and we owe Y amount of money'.

For example, click this link, and you're given a breakdown of how we compare to other countries in regard to our handle on debt. The United States' debt was at 104.517% of GDP at the end of 2013. We were at a comparatively low 28.79% at the end of the Labor government's reign.

A nation's ability to repay debt is how international credit agencies give their ratings (i.e. a country's credit rating being AAA in the case of Australia, or Greece having a B credit rating). For other countries with a AAA credit rating, click this link, which lists: Australia, Canada, Denmark, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Germany, Hong Kong, Norway, Singapore, Switzerland, Sweden, and the United Kingdom.
 
jackenny said:
If you consider China's debt to be manageable, and we have less debt than China, then logically we're in a position we're our debt is more manageable than China's debt. You have to take into account I am comparing Australia's and China's GDP-to-debt ratio, which already takes into account the size of each of our economies - that's why it's considered a ratio / percentile of our debt compared to GDP, and not a flat number like 'China owes X amount of money and we owe Y amount of money'.

For example, click this link, and you're given a breakdown of how we compare to other countries in regard to our handle on debt. The United States' debt was at 104.517% of GDP at the end of 2013. We were at a comparatively low 28.79% at the end of the Labor government's reign.

A nation's ability to repay debt is how international credit agencies give their ratings (i.e. a country's credit rating being AAA in the case of Australia, or Greece having a B credit rating). For other countries with a AAA credit rating, click this link, which lists: Australia, Canada, Denmark, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Germany, Hong Kong, Norway, Singapore, Switzerland, Sweden, and the United Kingdom.
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My point is Labor doesn't repay debt, so GDP % is irrelevant if your incompetent

BTW did you happen to catch that the Unions released the makeup of the cabinet before the government tonight, we know who is in change now don't we.
 
Iva Bigun said:
My point is Labor doesn't repay debt, so GDP % is irrelevant if your incompetent

BTW did you happen to catch that the Unions released the makeup of the cabinet before the government tonight, we know who is in change now don't we.
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Why are you so against unions? Because they're affiliated with the ALP? What exactly is it that you do (if you don't mind revealing over the internet lol) that hasn't benefited from union protection and advocacy and continues to benefit from it?

Unions protect the integrity of their employment area, they achieve higher pay rates and better benefits for their members, they better the safety standards and offer superior working conditions. I shiver at the thought of Australia without a strong union movement. The union movement in Australia brought an end to child labour and to this day have improved, and continue to improve, worker safety and worker wages (for both union members and non-members alike). Unions similarly brought free and well-funded education for children in Australia.

I'm pretty pleased with the newly appointed Minister for Health (and Minister for Ambulance Services too, which is a great portfolio addition btw) - happy to have a government ready to work with the Queensland Nurses Union too.
 
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Experimental said:
Why are you so against unions? Because they're affiliated with the ALP? What exactly is it that you do (if you don't mind revealing over the internet lol) that hasn't benefited from union protection and advocacy and continues to benefit from it?

Unions protect the integrity of their employment area, they achieve higher pay rates and better benefits for their members, they better the safety standards and offer superior working conditions. I shiver at the thought of Australia without a strong union movement. The union movement in Australia brought an end to child labour and to this day have improved, and continue to improve, worker safety and worker wages (for both union members and non-members alike). Unions similarly brought free and well-funded education for children in Australia.

I'm pretty pleased with the newly appointed Minister for Health (and Minister for Ambulance Services too, which is a great portfolio addition btw) - happy to have a government ready to work with the Queensland Nurses Union too.
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I have personally seen them intimidate both business owners and their own members, I have seen them call in false bomb threats to get out of work early, I have seen them damage property of others that don't hold their views, you tell me . I have seen them threated to close down sites on false safety grounds unles a family member is employed, what's to like
The union movement was created for the ideals you mentioned above but it has become the bully in the playground, open your eyes and read the CFMEU inquiry details. Too many people are happy to close their eyes as long as they get their slice of this dirty cake
 
Iva Bigun said:
I

I have personally seen them intimidate both business owners and their own members, I have seen them call in false bomb threats to get out of work early, I have seen them damage property of others that don't hold their views, you tell me . I have seen them threated to close down sites on false safety grounds unles a family member is employed, what's to like
The union movement was created for the ideals you mentioned above but it has become the bully in the playground, open your eyes and read the CFMEU inquiry details. Too many people are happy to close their eyes as long as they get their slice of this dirty cake
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That's a fair argument.

Everything you've mentioned is corruption - plain and simple. I'm not going to defend the wrongdoings that you've mentioned, but these examples are abnormal and atypical - especially in Australia. That's not what makes unions great and we'd all be a far worse situation without them.

As for your insinuation that the unions and Labor are cutting deals in private, the Queensland Nurses' Union fought hard against the Labor government and their payroll * up and severed all ties with the ALP several years ago now - they're no longer hand in hand as they once were. They in fact worked very closely with Newman's LNP government to introduce increased fines and punishment for patients who assault nurses - a fantastic implementation.
 
Experimental said:
That's a fair argument.

Everything you've mentioned is corruption - plain and simple. I'm not going to defend the wrongdoings that you've mentioned, but these examples are abnormal and atypical - especially in Australia. That's not what makes unions great and we'd all be a far worse situation without them.

As for your insinuation that the unions and Labor are cutting deals in private, the Queensland Nurses' Union fought hard against the Labor government and their payroll **** up and severed all ties with the ALP several years ago now - they're no longer hand in hand as they once were. They in fact worked very closely with Newman's LNP government to introduce increased fines and punishment for patients who assault nurses - a fantastic implementation.
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No Offence Experimental but that is exactly what the unions want you to think, I saw years of it, Its not random it's endemic

In fact I am going to stop talking about it now for fear of recrimination. I envy you for not having seen what I have
 
Iva Bigun said:
No Offence Experimental but that is exactly what the unions want you to think, I saw years of it, Its not random it's endemic

In fact I am going to stop talking about it now for fear of recrimination. I envy you for not having seen what I have
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Fair enough mate - QNU does me perfectly fine. It sounds like others may not be!
 
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