Sport The Official Essendon Tennis Thread

[Whispering_Jack]

Yes he is, despite all your bitching and moaning about it. Laver won 11 Grand Slam Titles, and 8 of the equivalent professional titles in 5 years before the Open era. Fed's won 20, an unbelievable achievement and he is firmly in the conversation.

It takes complete arrogance to do it. Federer himself considers Laver to be the GOAT, which tells me something about what you think.

2+2=4, yes. Apparently you're not completely hopeless. Next you'll be telling us that Sachin Tendulkar was better than Don Bradman

Of course he does - he's not about to come out and call himself the GOAT.

 

[eth-dog]

Of course he does - he's not about to come out and call himself the GOAT.

I'll take a man in contention to be the GOAT's opinion over Jade's opinion. For me the top 5 would be:

Laver
Federer
Nadal (very close)
Sampras
Djokovic

 

[Jade]

Yes he is, despite all your bitching and moaning about it.

Ooooohhhh bitching and moaning hey?

This is along with my being completely delusional, arrogant?

My irony meter just exploded...

Laver won 11 Grand Slam Titles, and 8 of the equivalent professional titles in 5 years before the Open era. Fed's won 20, an unbelievable achievement and he is firmly in the conversation.

The equivalent professional titles were NOT equivalent. Nor were the Grand Slams of the same era (won in opposition to the Professional tour); as neither represented the totality of the talent available to play.

It takes complete arrogance to do it. Federer himself considers Laver to be the GOAT, which tells me something about what you think.

It tells me I'm one of the 7,599,999,999 people in the world allowed to declare Federer the greatest of all time.

The one person that can't do that, is the one person you quoted.

Not gonna lie - that made me giggle.

But since you like quoting what Roger says; here's a few from Rod Laver:

“The best way to beat him would be to hit him over the head with a racket. Roger could win the Grand Slam if he keeps playing the way he is and, if he does that, it will equate to the two Grand Slams that I won because standards are much higher these days.”

"It's amazing what sort of shots he can come up with from impossible positions. It's an unbelievable effort to have 15 grand slam titles. Yes man he's the greatest player in history"

So Rod Laver thinks that the standard of play is higher today.

Rod Laver also thinks that Federer is the greatest player in history.

But go on, tell me again how Federer thinks Laver is the best ever.

Go on.

2+2=4, yes. Apparently you're not completely hopeless. Next you'll be telling us that Sachin Tendulkar was better than Don Bradman

I'm glad you think I'm not completely hopeless - was worried there for a second.

 

[eth-dog]

So, basically the arguments boil down to:

Me: Laver GOAT, but Federer in contention
Jade: Federer the only possible player to be considered GOAT. Nobody else can claim it. Laver isn't anywhere near it. Despite most commentators saying he's firmly in contention.

Anybody who considers Laver not even in the conversation is an imbecile.

 

[Jade]

I'll take a man in contention to be the GOAT's opinion over Jade's opinion. For me the top 5 would be:

Laver
Federer
Nadal (very close)
Sampras
Djokovic

Oh ho ho - this is delicious...

Yes, man he's the greatest player in history" - Rod Laver talking about Roger Federer.

"The guy is a legend and now he's an icon. He's got 15 Grand Slams, that's a lot of majors, that's a lot of work. He's a credit to the game. In my book he is (the greatest)." - Pete Sampras talking about Roger Federer

“Federer is the best player in history, no other player has ever had such quality.” - Rafael Nadal talking about Roger Federer

“I don’t think, that you can always – you can ever – get your game to perfection, you know. Only if you’re Federer.” - Novak Djokovic

Hey Eth, here's an idea - why don't you pick another top 5 players, and we'll see who they think the greatest ever is. Ya know, because you'll take the opinions of those in contention over Jade...

 

[eth-dog]

Oh ho ho - this is delicious...

Yes, man he's the greatest player in history" - Rod Laver talking about Roger Federer.

"The guy is a legend and now he's an icon. He's got 15 Grand Slams, that's a lot of majors, that's a lot of work. He's a credit to the game. In my book he is (the greatest)." - Pete Sampras talking about Roger Federer

“Federer is the best player in history, no other player has ever had such quality.” - Rafael Nadal talking about Roger Federer

“I don’t think, that you can always – you can ever – get your game to perfection, you know. Only if you’re Federer.” - Novak Djokovic

Hey Eth, here's an idea - why don't you pick another top 5 players, and we'll see who they think the greatest ever is. Ya know, because you'll take the opinions of those in contention over Jade...

So the pair consider each other to be the greatest. Funny about that.

Yet you think one isn't even in the conversation. That gif is perfect for your arguments so far, well done.

 

[GUMBLETRON]

So Rod Laver thinks that the standard of play is higher today.

Not an argument in and of itself of course. Part of the challenge in comparing players is accounting for different eras of professionalism and sports science.

 

[Jade]

Not an argument in and of itself of course. Part of the challenge in comparing players is accounting for different eras of professionalism and sports science.

Of course, and that would include judging the diluted talent pool that hampered tennis through much of Laver's career.

There simply is no reasonable argument that can be made to suggest Laver should be considered on the same level as Federer.

 

[eth-dog]

Of course, and that would include judging the diluted talent pool that hampered tennis through much of Laver's career.

There simply is no reasonable argument that can be made to suggest Laver should be considered on the same level as Federer.

To you. Everyone else in this thread seems to disagree.

I'm not the problem! Everyone else is!

 

[Jade]

To you. Everyone else in this thread seems to disagree.

I'm not the problem! Everyone else is!

Do they?

I think most people just don’t want to see you banned, and hence stay away from it.

 

[eth-dog]

Do they?

I think most people just don’t want to see you banned, and hence stay away from it.

Yes:

I'd say it's a compelling argument and he's not obviously wrong.

To be fair to ethan, he makes a pretty compelling case for Rod Laver. Still feel that Roger is the GOAT but gee, hard to ignore that case he makes below

You were saying? You're allowed to think Roger is the GOAT. Many people do. However people never have a problem jumping down my throat when they disagree with me. To consider Laver not in the conversation is delusional, arrogant and quite frankly plain imbecilic, considering most professional commentators still consider him to be there, as do most tennis players, including the man you think has him covered by a "comfortable" margin.

 

[GUMBLETRON]

Pancho Gonzalez 4 Life

 

[Jade]

Yes:

You were saying? You're allowed to think Roger is the GOAT. Many people do. However people never have a problem jumping down my throat when they disagree with me. To consider Laver not in the conversation is delusional, arrogant and quite frankly plain imbecilic, considering most professional commentators still consider him to be there, as do most tennis players, including the man you think has him covered by a "comfortable" margin.

No they don't.

Here, I'll do it again, for your benefit:

Yes, man he's the greatest player in history" - Rod Laver talking about Roger Federer.

"The guy is a legend and now he's an icon. He's got 15 Grand Slams, that's a lot of majors, that's a lot of work. He's a credit to the game. In my book he is (the greatest)." - Pete Sampras talking about Roger Federer

“Federer is the best player in history, no other player has ever had such quality.” - Rafael Nadal talking about Roger Federer

“I don’t think, that you can always – you can ever – get your game to perfection, you know. Only if you’re Federer.” - Novak Djokovic

Let me show you some of your other fallacies:

"It's not like Bradman's from a statistical standpoint where it blows everything else out of the water."

Yes it is. For a start, his singles grand slam tally is unmatched - like Bradman's average.

But it goes further, only 7 men in history can claim to have at least 'half' what Roger has achieved at Grand Slam level. There are over 40 people who can claim that for Bradman's average.

"Half your argument is what COULD have happened if not for Nadal. My argument is for what ACTUALLY happened."

Right. 20 Grand Slams to 11. That's what ACTUALLY happened.

"I'll take a man in contention to be the GOAT's opinion over Jade's opinion. For me the top 5 would be:

Laver
Federer
Nadal (very close)
Sampras
Djokovic"

And all four of the other five all declared Federer the greatest ever. The fact you don't even realise your error here is laughable.

-------

"You're completely delusional."

"You're so arrogant that you think that whatever you say is completely and utterly correct."

"despite all your bitching and moaning about it"

"Apparently you're not completely hopeless."

"Anybody who considers Laver not even in the conversation is an imbecile."

Maybe it's just me, but I'd want to have a very hard look at myself before I started abusing other people.

How's work today Ethan?

 

[eth-dog]

No they don't.

Here, I'll do it again, for your benefit:

Yes, man he's the greatest player in history" - Rod Laver talking about Roger Federer.

"The guy is a legend and now he's an icon. He's got 15 Grand Slams, that's a lot of majors, that's a lot of work. He's a credit to the game. In my book he is (the greatest)." - Pete Sampras talking about Roger Federer

“Federer is the best player in history, no other player has ever had such quality.” - Rafael Nadal talking about Roger Federer

“I don’t think, that you can always – you can ever – get your game to perfection, you know. Only if you’re Federer.” - Novak Djokovic

Let me show you some of your other fallacies:

"It's not like Bradman's from a statistical standpoint where it blows everything else out of the water."

Yes it is. For a start, his singles grand slam tally is unmatched - like Bradman's average.

But it goes further, only 7 men in history can claim to have at least 'half' what Roger has achieved at Grand Slam level. There are over 40 people who can claim that for Bradman's average.

"Half your argument is what COULD have happened if not for Nadal. My argument is for what ACTUALLY happened."

Right. 20 Grand Slams to 11. That's what ACTUALLY happened.

"I'll take a man in contention to be the GOAT's opinion over Jade's opinion. For me the top 5 would be:

Laver
Federer
Nadal (very close)
Sampras
Djokovic"

And all four of the other five all declared Federer the greatest ever. The fact you don't even realise your error here is laughable.

-------

"You're completely delusional."

"You're so arrogant that you think that whatever you say is completely and utterly correct."

"despite all your bitching and moaning about it"

"Apparently you're not completely hopeless."

"Anybody who considers Laver not even in the conversation is an imbecile."

Maybe it's just me, but I'd want to have a very hard look at myself before I started abusing other people.

How's work today Ethan?

Yes. Which is why I'm not dismissing anybody who says Federer is the GOAT, because I'm willing to admit that he's in the CONVERSATION. However you're dismissing anybody who disagrees that Laver is in the CONVERSATION.

And FWIW, your whole Bradman argument is crazy. Nobody got near it, period. The next highest is 64% of what he did. If you equate 20 GS to 99.94, Nadal has 80% and Sampras 70% of it. Djokovic only needs one more to get 65%, which is extremely possible if he gets to full fitness again. Hell, Nadal could be a year away from matching it.

Laver is GOAT for me. Federer currently second. However those two and Nadal, for me, are the top 3. Let me ask you one question; do you consider Laver to be top 5?

 

[Jade]

Yes. Which is why I'm not dismissing anybody who says Federer is the GOAT, because I'm willing to admit that he's in the CONVERSATION. However you're dismissing anybody who disagrees that Laver is in the CONVERSATION.

I am dismissing the argument that anyone could be in the conversation, not just Laver.

I think its possible Nadal could once again be a strong consideration if he stays at the top of the sport for another few years.

Djokovic also, if he can return to his best.

But no, Laver is not in the conversation - he's an all-timer, no doubt, but you cannot mount a reasonable argument to suggest its 'arguable' he could be better than Federer - he's not.

And FWIW, your whole Bradman argument is crazy. Nobody got near it, period. The next highest is 64% of what he did. If you equate 20 GS to 99.94, Nadal has 80% and Sampras 70% of it. Djokovic only needs one more to get 65%, which is extremely possible if he gets to full fitness again. Hell, Nadal could be a year away from matching it.

I didn't make a Bradman argument - I rebutted your statement.

Laver is GOAT for me. Federer currently second. However those two and Nadal, for me, are the top 3. Let me ask you one question; do you consider Laver to be top 5?

Possibly. If I did, it'd be fifth, I think the clear four standouts are Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Sampras.

 

[eth-dog]

I am dismissing the argument that anyone could be in the conversation, not just Laver.

I think its possible Nadal could once again be a strong consideration if he stays at the top of the sport for another few years.

Djokovic also, if he can return to his best.

But no, Laver is not in the conversation - he's an all-timer, no doubt, but you cannot mount a reasonable argument to suggest its 'arguable' he could be better than Federer - he's not.



I didn't make a Bradman argument - I rebutted your statement.



Possibly. If I did, it'd be fifth, I think the clear four standouts are Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Sampras.

Christ, can we just agree to disagree then? We both know we're both too hard-headed and stubborn to change our minds on this.

 

[Jade]

Christ, can we just agree to disagree then? We both know we're both too hard-headed and stubborn to change our minds on this.

You can disagree all that you want, I'll stick with the facts.

Federer sits atop the list of male players ever to play the game.

Your arguments attempting to reference pro events and WCT titles without recognising the severe dilution of the talent pool suggests you have a limited understanding of tennis history.

You foolishly quoted Federer in calling Laver the best, when Federer can never really be expected to call himself the best. You compounded that further by suggesting you'd take the opinions of those in consideration above mine - without realising that essentially every elite player who has been bothered to offer a view in the last couple of years has declared Federer to be the best player in history; actual quotes provided.

You aren't stubborn Ethan, or at least that isn't your problem here. You're uninformed, and obtuse.

 

[eth-dog]

You can disagree all that you want, I'll stick with the facts.

Federer sits atop the list of male players ever to play the game.

Your arguments attempting to reference pro events and WCT titles without recognising the severe dilution of the talent pool suggests you have a limited understanding of tennis history.

You foolishly quoted Federer in calling Laver the best, when Federer can never really be expected to call himself the best. You compounded that further by suggesting you'd take the opinions of those in consideration above mine - without realising that essentially every elite player who has been bothered to offer a view in the last couple of years has declared Federer to be the best player in history; actual quotes provided.

You aren't stubborn Ethan, or at least that isn't your problem here. You're uninformed, and obtuse.

I'll take that as a no then. You can argue all you want, but you're not changing my mind.

 

[Jade]

I'll take that as a no then. You can argue all you want, but you're not changing my mind.

I can assure you I never expected to.

I would however suggest that there are some psychological discussions which you can find easily online that would make you not want to utter those words ever again.

 

[eDPS]

Imagine if Kyrgios did this, heads would roll and mass media outrage

 

[eth-dog]

Millman new GOAT confirmed.

 

[Mercurial89]

Millman new GOAT confirmed.

First time ive thought Federer is close to retirement. Though its been on the cards for years his form has been good, even when he had that poor patch the magic was still there,the fight or rhe energy or whatever it was you knew he wasnt retiring.

Today he looked tired. I know its hot over there but physically he just didnt look right.

Of course i only saw 30% of the game so i may be totally wrong and its an off day.

 

[eth-dog]

First time ive thought Federer is close to retirement. Though its been on the cards for years his form has been good, even when he had that poor patch the magic was still there,the fight or rhe energy or whatever it was you knew he wasnt retiring.

Today he looked tired. I know its hot over there but physically he just didnt look right.

Of course i only saw 30% of the game so i may be totally wrong and its an off day.

I saw 0% of the game. But Millman is still new GOAT.

 

[Maddogm]

I saw 0% of the game. But Millman is still new GOAT.

Ethan, that post screams of you realising you were wrong in the previous discussion in this thread and being petulant about it.

 

[eth-dog]

Ethan, that post screams of you realising you were wrong in the previous discussion in this thread and being petulant about it.

Oh, not meant to be that. Was just trying to be funny.

Laver still GOAT for me though.