Test Surely the Cummins/McDonald captain/coach setup is the worst in Australian Test history

[King Elvis]

Worst captain coach set up in Test history, 11 wins, 4 losses. Won an away Test on all three subcontinent tours. Won the Ashes, retained the Ashes away. Won the WTC. Go woke go broke!

Indian Series - no practise matches (I don't buy the crap about dodgy pitches, it's still part of acclimatizing), and the reverse sweep insanity.

The bowling/fielding tactics in this Series...

 

[The 747]

Indian Series - no practise matches (I don't buy the crap about dodgy pitches, it's still part of acclimatizing), and the reverse sweep insanity.

The bowling/fielding tactics in this Series...

And?

 

[King Elvis]

And?

We threw the Indian series away due to poor management decisions - and the incomprehensible sweeping thing; how does that happen, with strong leadership?

Here, we got belted in this Test, and got out of jail due to the weather. Our selections (and squad management) and tactics for the last couple of Tests have been extremely questionable - who is responsible for this?

We've got a great team, Lyon is obviously a massive loss, but we've also had some incredible individual performances likely paper over the cracks - I think we're doing ourselves a disservice if we ignore that.

I like Cummins, but I'm not sure that the Cummins/McDonald combination is working well for us, given some of the obvious issues.

 

[The 747]

We threw the Indian series away due to poor management decisions - and the incomprehensible sweeping thing; how does that happen, with strong leadership?

Here, we got belted in this Test, and got out of jail due to the weather. Our selections (and squad management) and tactics for the last couple of Tests have been extremely questionable - who is responsible for this?

We've got a great team, Lyon is obviously a massive loss, but we've also had some incredible individual performances likely paper over the cracks - I think we're doing ourselves a disservice if we ignore that.

I like Cummins, but I'm not sure that the Cummins/McDonald combination is working well for us, given some of the obvious issues.

Again, 11 wins, 4 losses. Won an away Test on all three subcontinent tours. Won the Ashes, retained the Ashes away. Won the WTC.

I guess we could have beaten India in India, but we have done that like once ever.

 

[The King!]

Unless you can the entire squad and staff it wont make much difference, they all develop the plans etc together

The mostly winning seems ok to me

 

[Around the Wicket]

Again, 11 wins, 4 losses. Won an away Test on all three subcontinent tours. Won the Ashes, retained the Ashes away. Won the WTC.

I guess we could have beaten India in India, but we have done that like once ever.

I don't like 747 but hard not to agree, on paper it's been one of the more successful periods in some time.

 

[The Casey Cat]

I don't like 747 but hard not to agree, on paper it's been one of the more successful periods in some time.

Yep. There's absolutely things to work on. And overall the side isn't that good. But it's improved and been more consistent home and away since they've been together.

 

[frankrizzo]

Current team is basically just better version of the langer/paine team, still some serious issues with putting sides away when we get on top and with handling ultra aggressive batsman(pant bazballed us long before the ashes) and with over doing short stuff to tail but all these issues are the langer/paine era issues they arent new to this side.

 

[1001x1001]

Thinking back...Kim Hughes had a most difficult time as Australian Captain...A. Border would be by far and away the best in the face of adversity ...on the recent ashes win, well selecting a team to play for a draw in a test match, because its forecast to rain echos another sad chapter in cricket history...

 

[The Passenger]

Smith was criticised as captain just as much as Cummins, as was Paine. Ponting wasn’t seen as a great tactical captain either, as he wasn’t. Steve Waugh also wasn’t. The best in my time following have been Taylor and Clarke.

Yep, although I must admit his captaincy in India after Cummins went home was the best I've seen from him.

 

[two blue tiger]

If I see four men on the fence in the first ten overs then you'll hear me screaming "Noooooooooooooooooooo" at a level that will be able to be heard on the moon. Just back our bowlers to get them out, ffs.

 

[King Elvis]

Again, 11 wins, 4 losses. Won an away Test on all three subcontinent tours. Won the Ashes, retained the Ashes away. Won the WTC.

I guess we could have beaten India in India, but we have done that like once ever.

I'm aware of our win/loss record - I don't think that contradicts anything I said?

We have a very good team, and we've had some excellent individual performances which have pushed us into being a great team.

We've also lost Tests (and series, resultantly) due to poor tactics, brainfades and (IMO) poor preparation - I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest we need to acknowledge these things, and look at ways to improve upon them.

 

[Blue1980]

Yep, although I must admit his captaincy in India after Cummins went home was the best I've seen from him.

That’s fair, admittedly I think main issue with that series was lack of preparation and we got better as the series went along.

 

[Blue1980]

I'm aware of our win/loss record - I don't think that contradicts anything I said?

We have a very good team, and we've had some excellent individual performances which have pushed us into being a great team.

We've also lost Tests (and series, resultantly) due to poor tactics, brainfades and (IMO) poor preparation - I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest we need to acknowledge these things, and look at ways to improve upon them.

Well only series we have lost with Cummins is in India, and I’d largely blame preparation for that.

Preparation for this series has been fine, we have been found wanting at times when they begin to swing and get into the zone batting wise. Though same thing happened pre Cummins in england in basically all series in england at times since 2005.

I am hoping we have learnt some lessons for the oval test, though I think part of the problem was our bowlers being a bit flat, team selection and our batsmen having muddled thinking.

Hopefully Labs ton will be a turning point for him, and I’d imagine Murphy comes in for Green, and I’d play Neser as well.

Underrated aspect of all this is if Lyon didn’t get injured, I think we’d have won the 2nd test more comfortably and won the 3rd as well.

 

[spike101]

People have short memories.

Smith was criticised as captain just as much as Cummins, as was Paine. Ponting wasn’t seen as a great tactical captain either, as he wasn’t. Steve Waugh also wasn’t. The best in my time following have been Taylor and Clarke.

I do think we need a rethink of tactics, but they had largely worked until this test. Our batting was the issue in the 3rd test.

Totally agree about Ponting, why he is quoted relentlessly by Fox and Newscorp is a mystery given that he captained Australia to three Ashes series losses; two in England and one here. Tasmania hasn’t done too well under his management and nor has the Delhi team. Warner is captain of Delhi so Ponting is hopelessly compromised when discussing whether Warner should be selected or not.

 

[Blue1980]

Totally agree about Ponting, why he is quoted relentlessly by Fox and Newscorp is a mystery given that he captained Australia to three Ashes series losses; two in England and one here. Tasmania hasn’t done too well under his management and nor has the Delhi team. Warner is captain of Delhi so Ponting is hopelessly compromised when discussing whether Warner should be selected or not.

Ponting was criticised of being a shit captain due to the “humiliation” of losing 2 series to England.

But enough time has passed and people forget specifics and just remember the broad stokes of Ponting (great batsmen, uncompromising, tough etc) and forget anything he was criticised for is forgotten (being rubbish last 3 years of his career as a batsmen, unimaginative captain, being dislikable part of ugly Australians etc)

 

[Blue1980]

I'm not sure if Cummins or McDonald is the problem when it comes to match day tactics.

What's the point of having a Coach if we are completely tactically inept, and incapable of adapting our tactics within a days play; little loan across a Test match?

Well the thing is they aren’t totally inept are they? It’s not like they have got it wrong every time they have stepped out onto the field.

I guarantee whoever is captain next will be criticised as much if not more than Cummins, and then many of the same people will say whoever it is isn’t as good as Cummins.

 

[Blue1980]

Indian Series - no practise matches (I don't buy the crap about dodgy pitches, it's still part of acclimatizing), and the reverse sweep insanity.

The bowling/fielding tactics in this Series...

Not sure one can blame the no practice matches on captain and coach, isn’t that a cricket australia thing, and they wanted guys playing BBL.

Reverse sweep stuff was stupid and overdone in the 2nd test, but another half hour of Travis head batting and we probably win that test, fine margins.

 

[Blue1980]

We threw the Indian series away due to poor management decisions - and the incomprehensible sweeping thing; how does that happen, with strong leadership?

Here, we got belted in this Test, and got out of jail due to the weather. Our selections (and squad management) and tactics for the last couple of Tests have been extremely questionable - who is responsible for this?

We've got a great team, Lyon is obviously a massive loss, but we've also had some incredible individual performances likely paper over the cracks - I think we're doing ourselves a disservice if we ignore that.

I like Cummins, but I'm not sure that the Cummins/McDonald combination is working well for us, given some of the obvious issues.

I think further tweaking of things is required, evolution not revolution, as more is working than isn’t working, so wouldn’t be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I also think Smith and Paine had similar issues to Cummins as captains.

 

[Blue1980]

Yep. There's absolutely things to work on. And overall the side isn't that good. But it's improved and been more consistent home and away since they've been together.

Current side is better than almost any side we have had since 2007, but not better than the 99-07 era side. And even that side lost in India in 2001 and the ashes in England 2005.

 

[The Passenger]

Current side is better than almost any side we have had since 2007, but not better than the 99-07 era side. And even that side lost in India in 2001 and the ashes in England 2005.

Since the glory days ended circa 2007ish... The only period we've had close to the last two years is when Mitch Johnson went nuts in 13/14 both in Australia and South Africa... But this time, the team is much better rounded and not as reliant on an individual having maybe the best 8-test run any quick bowler has ever had (59 wickets at 15 against two of our three most important opponents). Anyone can captain a team when one bowler is causing that much carnage to the opposition.

Did Michael Clarke do anything to bring that out in MJ? Or did everything just click into place for MJ and he finally did something he had been threatening to do for the best part of a decade - it should be remembered there was a lot of WTF going on when he get picked again for the first test that series despite a pretty tumultuous couple of years. They would have picked him expecting him to perform well, but even his most ardent backers can't have seen the summer unfolding the way it did for him.

We don't have 11 genuine potential match-winners like that insane team of the early 2000s, but we do have 7 or 8 and that's more than most teams will ever get close to fielding. On top of that, we've probably only one real weak link, albeit a very important one and that being our top order overseas - Marnus hopefully going some way to getting the monkey off the back last test.

It's a good team, absolutely no doubt about that and this is a legacy test match coming up. Win this and you can't deny it becomes a very good team. 2-2 and they just get stuck on the good step alongside plenty of other Aussie teams.

 

[psychobrown]

I hoped they could have done an experiment this last test by abandoning McDonald in Sherwood Forest for a few days so we can see who's coming up with these bowling plans

 

[Teen Wolf]

Did Michael Clarke do anything to bring that out in MJ

Yes, he was excellent at using the other bowlers (including Watson) to employ defensive tactics at the right time, despite being known primarily as an attacking captain.

So when Johnson goes for 5rpo for just one lucky wicket across his first few spells upon his return to Test cricket, it didn't matter because Clarke was still finding ways to simultaneously contain England. Hence your description of that team relying so heavily on Johnson is way off, or at least incomplete--there was mutual reliance and benefit, like a partnership (i.e. the basis of all good cricket).

A lot of people at the time didn't understand. Take this nugget from the cricinfo commentary of the 1st Test of 2013/14:

"Given the fact that it has been made so well known that Johnson's confidence drops quicker than an anvil - as Ricky Ponting mentioned in his book - is it really a great move from Clarke to say 'three overs is enough, I don't back you to make the early breakthrough'? Could have already undone all the good work his knock yesterday would have done." He's back now, Phat Boy, don't get too het up yet

And guess what, people still don't understand. On these current English pitches, Clarke would've been far more defensive (and successful) than Cummins who has been criticised for being too defensive (and successful).

 

[spike101]

Ponting was criticised of being a s**t captain due to the “humiliation” of losing 2 series to England.

But enough time has passed and people forget specifics and just remember the broad stokes of Ponting (great batsmen, uncompromising, tough etc) and forget anything he was criticised for is forgotten (being rubbish last 3 years of his career as a batsmen, unimaginative captain, being dislikable part of ugly Australians etc)

Love the “broad” insert

 

[spike101]

Yes, he was excellent at using the other bowlers (including Watson) to employ defensive tactics at the right time, despite being known primarily as an attacking captain.

So when Johnson goes for 5rpo for just one lucky wicket across his first few spells upon his return to Test cricket, it didn't matter because Clarke was still finding ways to simultaneously contain England. Hence your description of that team relying so heavily on Johnson is way off, or at least incomplete--there was mutual reliance and benefit, like a partnership (i.e. the basis of all good cricket).

A lot of people at the time didn't understand. Take this nugget from the cricinfo commentary of the 1st Test of 2013/14:


And guess what, people still don't understand. On these current English pitches, Clarke would've been far more defensive (and successful) than Cummins who has been criticised for being too defensive (and successful).

As if Ponting would know?