Autopsy Round 11, 2023: St.Kilda v Hawthorn

[saintmike65]

I think Jack steele need to be moved on as captain
Great inspirational player but not a captain, the fact there was nothing done about the ‘drinking culture’ from a player driven space is alarming.

Give it to king or Wilkie, let Jack play footy…
There was a great review from Ben Dixon on first crack tonight
Pretty much said the experienced players weren’t willing to run hard enough and work hard enough in the contest and we’re not desperate enough to get the younger kids to the right spots…the vision he showed of our poor on-field leadership was stark.

And whenyou think about it, who are the onfield leaders..?? Ones like Rooey, Lenny, Frawley?

I can see why Ross is keen to have Fyfe playing.

Wilkie would be a terrific captain, plus Steele could focus fully on his own game, which has slipped a lot!

 

[The Punter]

I thought this before the game, during the game and after the game: most of the discussion around Hawthorn is entirely disrespectful. There is no game where you are entitled to a 10 goal win. Hawthorn were excellent on Saturday - they moved the ball well, used the ball extremely well, and were the harder team. They got what they deserved.

Some other thoughts:

• Battle and Higgins had barely put a foot wrong all season, then both played their clear worst game for the year. This sort of stuff happens.
• Higgins has to mark that, but he did play out the game with a dislocated finger.
• King looks enthused. Looks like someone who has missed footy.
• Boy did we miss Mitch Owens. Is he our most important player?
• Next step in Caminiti's development. Game 8 and now he gets chosen as the guy who gets peeled off. He needs to learn what to do in that situation and manage it effectively, but it's probably the hardest thing to do as a KPF when you aren't a superstar. How do you command the ball so you can drag your opponent away from other contests? Nothing to hit the panic button about.
• Butler started out like he wanted no part of the contact and worked into it really well - nice to see.
• NWM is in some vein of form.
• Probably the sort of game where Membrey could have made a difference in slowing down the play to our advantage. Sharman did some nice things once on the ground, but he kind of always does a couple of nice things.
• Ross Lyon gets the opportunity to reset and change things up now, perhaps turn a few players over. But will he do it? Seb Ross has now gone four games without a 20 disposal game. Excluding 2020, that hasn't happened since early 2015. IMO the credits are running low.
• Either Ben Paton plays as a shutdown small defender (because Stocker or Webster are out), or he doesn't play.

 

[Jade Buddha]

Jesus, I hope the club isn't that soft. I did the ladder predictor and if we lose all the losable ones we miss finals on percentage and that's with big losses to sides like Brisbane and Geelong. We just have to stand upright and stumble into finals this year. We win one game against a better side and we probably play finals. Keep the losses to low scores and add some big scores against strugglers and we play finals even.

Next year there is no reason why we improve. If anything we have less scope than sides like Gold Coast and Essendon, even GWS to improve. If we tank at the first hurdle we might as well fold.

We chose a very commercially poor fixture over an easier run. To give up when the heat goes up would be embarrassing to be honest and part of why we are such a weak club. Playing finals lets us go in to next year confident, probably attracts free agents and ring ins etc.

If Lyon starts to advocate tanking, it's time to move him on. Luckily I don't think he's that type of coach. He's the type that doesn't believe that the list is an impediment to success, only application and effort hold sides back.

A large percentage of our team has upside with the exception of our old mids Steele, Crouch and Ross. We have plenty of kids in we just need to give them time to replace our solid slow 3.
I think Ross knows this and is just tinkering on the outside to see who can follow orders and apply team structure and none negotiables.
He’d have a solid eye on what’s happening at Sandy but more for future than right now. Windy is clearly in the picture along with a few others and we’ve got the invalids on the injury list Coffield, Hayes, Dmac.
I think it’s not as bleak as some are painting. We just need a little patience.

 

[bird_man]

A large percentage of our team has upside with the exception of our old mids Steele, Crouch and Ross. We have plenty of kids in we just need to give them time to replace our solid slow 3.
I think Ross knows this and is just tinkering on the outside to see who can follow orders and apply team structure and none negotiables.
He’d have a solid eye on what’s happening at Sandy but more for future than right now. Windy is clearly in the picture along with a few others and we’ve got the invalids on the injury list Coffield, Hayes, Dmac.
I think it’s not as bleak as some are painting. We just need a little patience.

Have you forgotten how good of a footballer Jack Steele is?

He is out of form and playing sore.

I've been very vocal about getting young mids in there, but we need to be looking at getting the best out of Jack, not replacing him.

 

[Saintbloke]

Have you forgotten how good of a footballer Jack Steele is?

He is out of form and playing sore.

I've been very vocal about getting young mids in there, but we need to be looking at getting the best out of Jack, not replacing him.

Jack has been great for us, even before injury he wasn't in the top form of recent years. He clearly came back too early from injury and it is plainly obvious that he is not committing his body into hard contests..why would you after smashing your shoulder not that long ago. We want to win games, and you need to field the best in-form team available.

 

[Jesuswasacarpenter]

Jesus, I hope the club isn't that soft. I did the ladder predictor and if we lose all the losable ones we miss finals on percentage and that's with big losses to sides like Brisbane and Geelong. We just have to stand upright and stumble into finals this year. We win one game against a better side and we probably play finals. Keep the losses to low scores and add some big scores against strugglers and we play finals even.

Next year there is no reason why we improve. If anything we have less scope than sides like Gold Coast and Essendon, even GWS to improve. If we tank at the first hurdle we might as well fold.

We chose a very commercially poor fixture over an easier run. To give up when the heat goes up would be embarrassing to be honest and part of why we are such a weak club. Playing finals lets us go in to next year confident, probably attracts free agents and ring ins etc.

If Lyon starts to advocate tanking, it's time to move him on. Luckily I don't think he's that type of coach. He's the type that doesn't believe that the list is an impediment to success, only application and effort hold sides back.

What the f*ck did I see on the weekend then...the effort wasn't consistently there.
I didn't see much in Adelaide either.

 

[dudeintheswamp]

Yeah in the cold light of Monday morning, I think it's kinda better we lost. Obviously a real missed opportunity with the way the other results unfolded, and an incredibly infuriating game to watch, but at the same time we got a bit lucky to not be punished more by the weekends results, and we deserved to be beaten by a lot more imo.

So we were beaten quite convincingly and then dodged a bullet as far as percentage and ladder position are concerned. The players go to their break with hopefully a few less tickets on themselves and the very real understanding that if you don't get to work, anyone can beat you on any given day.

Geez it was a hard game to watch though, so frustrating. Amazing game from Sicily but how we let him do his thing time and time again was bewildering. Still for me probably the most frustrating moment even though the game was just about done was the clearance out of the centre near the death when Gresh scrubbed the inside fifty. I'm not gonna hang someone for one moment in a game but that's the sort of sh!t that sucks the lifeblood out of a team. As we all would understand here, Gresh seems to polarise Saints supporters to some degree. He seems to have the gamebreaking moves that we lack so starkly, yet all too often his kicking under pressure (and sometimes not even then) is shocking and close to unacceptable for an elite AFL professional.

It's a tricky balancing act, he has the moves to get centre clearances at times where most of our other mids can't/won't, but the resulting kick very rarely goes to our advantage. Quick decision making seems to be one of his main knocks, to me he often seems to be in two minds as he's about to kick, resulting in scrubbers in between the two targets he's considering. He somehow needs to free his mind and take the instinctive first option, as the really good players do. Come the end of this 'year of exploration', what they choose to do with Gresh for me is the most intriguing decision they'll face. Doesn't deserve the really big bucks, but has some X factor we so sorely lack. He's one of not many that is worth something as trade bait/compo, but would what we get for him outweigh what he brings? According to his manager he seems happy at the Saints, will he be so happy that he takes a haircut on his next deal? So many questions, I have nfi.

 

[The Cobra]

Bitterly disappointed with Saturday playing against an ordinary team. The last month has been ordinary and it looks like the real gut running and not negotiable effort has dropped off. Given the quality of our list we need 100% effort to be successful.

However, to be balanced, we have outperformed until 4 weeks ago given our injury list.

Old RTB is being very measured in public but I suspect he has a very detailed file with notes about those players who he sees as the future and those who will be moved on. Every game played provides more intelligence and data. He will also be working with Gubby and SOS and the other recruiters now and identifying who is going and who they should target for next season and beyond.

I expect there will be significant changes at the end of the season and any player (other than a few guns) who feels comfortable may be in for an unpleasant surprise.

If there is one thing we know about RTB, he can be ruthless!

 

[The Punter]

Not for nothing, but the only three players who have

• played in the seniors this season
• haven't polled a Big Footy B&F vote

were the three players who didn't get a game on the weekend (Windhager, Bytel, Membrey). The other players missing who have played a senior game this season were Cordy and Owens (who polled B&F votes in every game except the one he didn't play and the one where he got knocked out).

 

[gringo2011]

I thought this before the game, during the game and after the game: most of the discussion around Hawthorn is entirely disrespectful. There is no game where you are entitled to a 10 goal win. Hawthorn were excellent on Saturday - they moved the ball well, used the ball extremely well, and were the harder team. They got what they deserved.

Some other thoughts:

• Battle and Higgins had barely put a foot wrong all season, then both played their clear worst game for the year. This sort of stuff happens.
• Higgins has to mark that, but he did play out the game with a dislocated finger.
• King looks enthused. Looks like someone who has missed footy.
• Boy did we miss Mitch Owens. Is he our most important player?
• Next step in Caminiti's development. Game 8 and now he gets chosen as the guy who gets peeled off. He needs to learn what to do in that situation and manage it effectively, but it's probably the hardest thing to do as a KPF when you aren't a superstar. How do you command the ball so you can drag your opponent away from other contests? Nothing to hit the panic button about.
• Butler started out like he wanted no part of the contact and worked into it really well - nice to see.
• NWM is in some vein of form.
• Probably the sort of game where Membrey could have made a difference in slowing down the play to our advantage. Sharman did some nice things once on the ground, but he kind of always does a couple of nice things.
• Ross Lyon gets the opportunity to reset and change things up now, perhaps turn a few players over. But will he do it? Seb Ross has now gone four games without a 20 disposal game. Excluding 2020, that hasn't happened since early 2015. IMO the credits are running low.
• Either Ben Paton plays as a shutdown small defender (because Stocker or Webster are out), or he doesn't play.

Same against North, the same North who just lost to the top of the ladder side by 35 points. You can't afford to disrespect anyone any more. WC are a soft kill perhaps but that's due to a mass of injuries.

 

[Saint Shags]

Picking and choosing has been an issue for this group for so many years. It's exhausting hearing them trot out the same lines all the time. You're a professional footballer, act like one?

I seem to remember footage of the rooms after a game in 21 where Ratts was asking the playing group the question and Wilkie gave a similar response back then.

 

[Saint Shags]

We saw our mids get an absolute flogging (look at the stats) yet we only lost by10, which says our system stands up

Have to disagree with this. They had 10 more scoring shots. Had nothing to do with the system. If they kick straighter it would have been closer to 6-8 goal loss.

 

[aussierulesrules]

I thought this before the game, during the game and after the game: most of the discussion around Hawthorn is entirely disrespectful. There is no game where you are entitled to a 10 goal win. Hawthorn were excellent on Saturday - they moved the ball well, used the ball extremely well, and were the harder team. They got what they deserved.

This is a big way. I didn’t post in the weekday thread leading up to the game, but read some of it, and as soon as I saw all the posts that were so dismissive of a team that won by 116 points the week before I had a really bad feeling about the game.

The competition outside of West Coast and to a lesser extent North is so even, and Hawthorn were no.3 in the comp for clearances going into the game, and have a huge midfield (Nash is a ridiculous 198cm and 94kg, Day is 191cm, Newcomb is 187cm and 92kg, and even Worpel is 186cm), so with our midfield being so out of form, and then losing Clark early on, we were always likely to be really up against it there, and then they have a genuinely good target up front in Lewis (who kicked a bag against us last year, and again last week), another decent one in Kosi, and then a ripper in Breust, and the excellent Moore, then down back they gave a guy in Sicily who’s an absolute weapon, that we were always likely to struggle to contain, once we only named the two tall targets up forward. Leaving him to play on smaller types and peel off them at will.

Then in the ruck they have a 210cm guy against 201cm Ro, who has no leap, and a 203cm, 109kg unit in Meek, as backup, so we were always likely to get soundly beaten in the ruck contests and midfield and be on the back foot from there.

And if our team had half the arrogance that I saw in this board, thinking it was going to be an easy win before their holiday, well then it’s no surprise that we didn’t see them really going at maximum intensity except for the start of the 3rd quarter, after Ross presumably gave them an earful at half time.

 

[CaptainRisky]

Just about to settle in and watch the replay.

Main thing I'll be trying to figure out is how APPARENTLY we are so s***, how so many of our players are totally useless, how the game plan is shot, how come the coaching staff can't the obvious solutions that everyone on here can see and that the administration from the President down are totally incompetent and yet



and yet




and yet



we were 20 points up early in the last and dropped mark away from pretty much sealing the game


and yet


we are 5th on the ladder sitting 7/4 and with a very healthy %.

Do you like pain

 

[aussierulesrules]

Have to disagree with this. They had 10 more scoring shots. Had nothing to do with the system. If they kick straighter it would have been closer to 6-8 goal loss.

“Expected scores” were 109 to 86, according to Champion Data. Even though we kicked 12-6, we “should” have kicked an extra 8 points, so we presumably had most of our shots from very good positions. While a lot of their shots, as Gringo suggested, were more hail-Mary’s.

 

[BigMonty]

Hawthorn and Saints both played one behind the ball. Sicily getting the ball so often saw them spread and switch with the plus one. In reality Caminti, Higgins aren't about to sprint to get them, Butler the only one, with Wood and Byrnes. On the MCG it would have been much worse.

Punter is right about Camaniti needing to move his opponent away from the contest and making space for others to operate. That will come with time. Membrey would have definitely helped so would have Owens cat like agility.

I thought with 15 min to go Hawks had stopped there was a couple of plays where they just stopped running and were so stagnant. Thought one more goal and that's it...then that kick to Higgins ffs.

They then kicked a couple of goals and you could see them get the energy belief etc and then they just ran harder and supported the ball carrier and we just missed a few key tackles and that was it.

Did anyone think that whilst I loved our jumpers and harked back to pre first world war that they clashed with the Hawks gold. I was at the game and had problems making out the difference.

We all thought it would be a danger game and I feel that the Hawks are the next Adelaide in two years time. Whereas Sydney and to an extent Geelong and now Richmond look on the other side of the hill and going South.

We need another Sinclair type to replace Paton. DMac is an upgrade on Byrnes. Need a fit Steele and Owens sadly for Ross. Maybe Ross goes to half back instead of Paton who is not the player he was.....fit Coffield would be handy.

Also feel that a fit Billings as a HHF adds more than what we have and Membrey for Caminti.

On Steele and Captaincy, bloke came back from a knee and shoulder in record time. Last year you may remember he got injured missed 4-6 weeks which effectively ended our season.

Leadership by example is one way of showing it another is pointing and shouting...both work for different character types. Steele more Lennie....Wilkie maybe has a bit more Goddard.

Gresham and Higgins and maybe Ross are not onfield leaders and are suspect when the whips are cracking.

Finally Clarke going out forced a change to side structure needing inside mids with Ross doing the job and reckon he is better on the outside now.

Anyway looks like an interesting second half to the season. With our injuries would take 7 4 with an excellent percentage at halfway. Long way to go yet.

Go Saints



On SM-S916B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[St Significant]

Not sure the bye came at the right time. Now this loss will be all but forgotten when selection meeting comes around in 10 days and the same team will go out against Sydney. Changes need to be made starting with our slow midfield. Bring Windy & Bytel in there and gee did we realise how important a 19 year old player is to our structure - hope Owens completely recovers from his concussion coz he is our point of difference and has X-factor star written all over him.

 

[Saint Shags]

“Expected scores” were 109 to 86, according to Champion Data. Even though we kicked 12-6, we “should” have kicked an extra 8 points, so we presumably had most of our shots from very good positions. While a lot of their shots, as Gringo suggested, were more hail-Mary’s.

I'm not going should haves. I'm going with what was actually scored. They had 10 more than us and they had some easy misses.

 

[L_W_P]

Yeah in the cold light of Monday morning, I think it's kinda better we lost. Obviously a real missed opportunity with the way the other results unfolded, and an incredibly infuriating game to watch, but at the same time we got a bit lucky to not be punished more by the weekends results, and we deserved to be beaten by a lot more imo.

So we were beaten quite convincingly and then dodged a bullet as far as percentage and ladder position are concerned. The players go to their break with hopefully a few less tickets on themselves and the very real understanding that if you don't get to work, anyone can beat you on any given day.

Geez it was a hard game to watch though, so frustrating. Amazing game from Sicily but how we let him do his thing time and time again was bewildering. Still for me probably the most frustrating moment even though the game was just about done was the clearance out of the centre near the death when Gresh scrubbed the inside fifty. I'm not gonna hang someone for one moment in a game but that's the sort of sh!t that sucks the lifeblood out of a team. As we all would understand here, Gresh seems to polarise Saints supporters to some degree. He seems to have the gamebreaking moves that we lack so starkly, yet all too often his kicking under pressure (and sometimes not even then) is shocking and close to unacceptable for an elite AFL professional.

It's a tricky balancing act, he has the moves to get centre clearances at times where most of our other mids can't/won't, but the resulting kick very rarely goes to our advantage. Quick decision making seems to be one of his main knocks, to me he often seems to be in two minds as he's about to kick, resulting in scrubbers in between the two targets he's considering. He somehow needs to free his mind and take the instinctive first option, as the really good players do. Come the end of this 'year of exploration', what they choose to do with Gresh for me is the most intriguing decision they'll face. Doesn't deserve the really big bucks, but has some X factor we so sorely lack. He's one of not many that is worth something as trade bait/compo, but would what we get for him outweigh what he brings? According to his manager he seems happy at the Saints, will he be so happy that he takes a haircut on his next deal? So many questions, I have nfi.

I wish we used Gresh forward more.

He should be like Rankine or Rachelle at the Crows - Start forward then rotate on ball for a different look.

Maybe he's got a bit of the Josh Caddy's about him? Caddy was a gun junior mid but never found that form at AFL level. The Suns, Cats and Tigers played him forward and gave him a burst on ball here and there, rather than playing him as a full time mid.

From all reports he was adamant about playing midfield right up until the end of his career which is why he fell out of favor.

I love Gresh, and think we are a better team when he plays FORWARD but maybe he's so set on replicating that junior midfield form that it just isn't going to work the way the team needs it to.

We can't keep playing him as a mid when half his kicks go straight to the opposition, especially in an era where half back/slingshot football is the #1 method of scoring.

 

[StFly]

I wish we used Gresh forward more.

He should be like Rankine or Rachelle at the Crows - Start forward then rotate on ball for a different look.

Maybe he's got a bit of the Josh Caddy's about him? Caddy was a gun junior mid but never found that form at AFL level. The Suns, Cats and Tigers played him forward and gave him a burst on ball here and there, rather than playing him as a full time mid.

From all reports he was adamant about playing midfield right up until the end of his career which is why he fell out of favor.

I love Gresh, and think we are a better team when he plays FORWARD but maybe he's so set on replicating that junior midfield form that it just isn't going to work the way the team needs it to.

We can't keep playing him as a mid when half his kicks go straight to the opposition, especially in an era where half back/slingshot football is the #1 method of scoring.

I'm at the point with Gresh where I'm asking for offers as I don't want that man entering our F50 with any disposal as he'll crossbody screw grubber 90% of them trying to emulate a fancy Dunstan I50.

Realistically, Dmac shifts with Byrnes in mid, Byrnes shifts with Butler and Butler potentially shifts to rookie list ala Lonie in that sort of shuffle around, I think Byrnes could do what Butler does only with more physicality and repeat efforts to actually retain that ball in that F50. Already I've classed Gresh as a tease, has attributes, could be something, doesn't have the mentality for it, will never reach those heights, we'ree on a hiding if we rely on him to be a difference as he'll disappoint more than he excites and tease "maybe next time" that'll never happen.

 

[The_Steadier]

Same against North, the same North who just lost to the top of the ladder side by 35 points. You can't afford to disrespect anyone any more. WC are a soft kill perhaps but that's due to a mass of injuries.

Forget about the opposition though.

We played like utter garbage compared to how we played at the start of the season.

We have utterly collapsed back into playing dumb ratten footy.

Slow, scared ball movement... long bomb hail marys.

Im fine with us losing to the likes of the hawks if they are good enough and we aren't playing dumb football.

But we didn't.
We lost to them playing utter trash football that even the worst teams in the league don't find very challenging.

 

[L_W_P]

I'm at the point with Gresh where I'm asking for offers as I don't want that man entering our F50 with any disposal as he'll crossbody screw grubber 90% of them trying to emulate a fancy Dunstan I50.

Realistically, Dmac shifts with Byrnes in mid, Byrnes shifts with Butler and Butler potentially shifts to rookie list ala Lonie in that sort of shuffle around, I think Byrnes could do what Butler does only with more physicality and repeat efforts to actually retain that ball in that F50. Already I've classed Gresh as a tease, has attributes, could be something, doesn't have the mentality for it, will never reach those heights, we'ree on a hiding if we rely on him to be a difference as he'll disappoint more than he excites and tease "maybe next time" that'll never happen.

I think if he played as a full time forward he'd be seen very differently.

Maybe swap him and Higgins for a while? See what happens.

Snags played as a mid in the juniors and hade huge stats so he might be a bit of a Schneider type who can play a really high half forward/wing and give us a different look?

 

[The Punter]

Higgins also definitely played higher up the ground at Richmond.

 

[Sniffy Jenkins]

The only positive I can take from this game is we helped seperate Hawthorn from Harley Reid that little bit more.

 

[bergholt]

Not for nothing, but the only three players who have

• played in the seniors this season
• haven't polled a Big Footy B&F vote

were the three players who didn't get a game on the weekend (Windhager, Bytel, Membrey). The other players missing who have played a senior game this season were Cordy and Owens (who polled B&F votes in every game except the one he didn't play and the one where he got knocked out).

Here's the list of players who've played in the seniors and not picked up a coaches vote:

Bytel (5 games)
Caminiti (8)
Clark (11)
Cordy (7)
Gresham (10)
Howard (11)
Membrey (4)
Paton (11)
Sharman (3)
Stocker (11)
Webster (4)
Windhager (6)

Not sure if that tells us much more though tbh.